UN Panel: Israeli Settlements Are Illegal

[JustaServant]

danrooke,
It sounds like you have a lot of experience on the ground in that part of the world, which makes your contribution valuable.
Here in the US we have many armchair warriors, who watch too much Fox “news”, think they know everything that is going on over there, and make rash unreasoned statements about something they really know nothing about.
The Native Americans (of whom the paralels to the Palestians are striking) used to say they would not judge their brother until they walk a mile in thier moccasins.
As Catholics, we need to be more sensitive toward the downtrodden and the oppressed. We need to pray for peace.
Our Lady at Fatima said “war is a punishment for sin”. There are no “good” wars, only bad ones. And we need to be on the side of peace.

 

[YKohen]

Back up that claim. With documentation please.

Here is just the tip of the iceberg- a smattering:

Papal Bulls

1184 “Ad abolendam”, by Pope Lucius III: The document prescribes measures to uproot heresy and sparked the efforts which culminated in the Albigensian Crusade and the Inquisitions. Its chief aim was the complete abolition of Christian heresy.

Lucius condemned all heretical sects and persons who preached without the authorisation of the Roman Church, whether publicly or privately, and placed them under excommunication. Among the particular sects mentioned in Ad abolendam were the Cathars, Humiliati, Waldensians, Arnoldists, and Josephines. More important than the direct attack on heresy, however, was the stipulation of equal measures for those who supported heretics, overtly or indirectly. They too were placed under excommunication.

Those accused of heresy, if they could not prove their innocence or forswear their errors, or if they backslid into error subsequently, were to be handed over to the lay authorities to receive their animadversio debita (“due penalty”). All those who supported heresy were deprived of their many rights: the right to hold public office, the right to trial, the right to draft a will, and the hereditability of their fiefs and offices.

For the enforcement of the measures demanded by the decretal, Lucius obligated all patriarchs, archbishops, and bishops to re-announce the excommunication on certain feasts and holidays. Those who did not observe this for three years consecutively would be deprived of their ecclesiastical offices. The bishops were furthermore obligated to “seek out” heretics. They were to make bi- or triannual rounds of their dioceses, visiting locations of suspicion and question the people about the existence of heresy. The people would be required to swear under oath (compurgation) anything they knew about heretical activity. All oath-breakers were to be treated as heretics.

The bull was incorporated as Canon 3 of the Fourth Council of the Lateran of 1215 under Pope Innocent III.

fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp

No forgiveness without repentance.

1145 “Quantum praedecessores”, Eugene III
1187 “Audita tremendi”, by Pope Gregory VIII
1198 “Post Miserabile”, by Pope Innocent III
1213 “Quia maior”, by Pope Innocent III

Calling for the Second, Third, Fourth, and Fifth Crusades. Why didn’t the Popes simply forgive the Muslims?

1199 “Vergentis in senium” by Pope Innocent III: Addressed to the city of Viterbo, announced that heresy would be considered, in terms of punishment, the same as treason. No forgiveness without repentance.

1215 Fourth Council of the Lateran, convoked by Pope Innocent III with the papal bull of April 19, 1213 (Just 1 example):

CANON 69

Since it is absurd that a blasphemer of Christ exercise authority over Christians, we on account of the boldness of transgressors renew in this general council what the Synod of Toledo (589) wisely enacted in this matter, prohibiting Jews from being given preference in the matter of public offices, since in such capacity they are most troublesome to the Christians. But if anyone should commit such an office to them, let him, after previous warning, be restrained by such punishment as seems proper by the provincial synod which we command to be celebrated every year. The official, however, shall be denied the commercial and other intercourse of the Christians, till in the judgment of the bishop all that he acquired from the Christians from the time he assumed office be restored for the needs of the Christian poor, and the office that he irreverently assumed let him lose with shame. The same we extend also to pagans. [Mansi, IX, 995; Hefele-Leclercq, III, 7.27. This canon 14 of Toledo was frequently renewed.]

fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp

No forgiveness without repentance.

1252 “Ad exstirpanda”, by Pope Innocent IV: Authorizes the use of torture for eliciting confessions from heretics during the Inquisition and executing relapsed heretics by burning them alive.

documentacatholicaomnia.eu/01p/1252-05-15,_SS_Innocentius_IV,Bulla%27Ad_Extirpanda%27,_EN.pdf

No forgiveness without repentance.

And then to jump ahead a bit just to mix it up (although there is much more from earlier as well. See:

1520 “Exsurge Domine” by Pope Leo X: Demands that Martin Luther retract 41 of his 95 theses, as well as other specified errors, within sixty days of its publication in neighbouring regions to Saxony. The following year there was “Decet Romanum Pontificem” that excommunicated him.

papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm

No forgiveness without repentance.

And there’s also the whole issue of Galileo: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Trial

No forgiveness without repentance.

I can provide many many more such examples, but these should suffice to those who are intellectually honest.

Are you?

 

[YKohen]

danrooke,

Maybe you weren’t made to feel welcome at Ben Gurion Airport because your group was already going with preconceived notions and quentionable intentions.

Jews didn’t historically live here? Au contraire:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10344487

Jews always lived here.

To quote your own Bible when the same accusations were made thousands of years ago:

1 Maccabees Chapter 15

[33] We have neither taken foreign land nor seized foreign property, but only the inheritance of our fathers, which at one time had been unjustly taken by our enemies.

[34] Now that we have the opportunity, we are firmly holding the inheritance of our fathers.

And it is most ironic that the only place in the entire Middle East where the Christian population is growing is in the Jewish state. Thgey are suffering everywhere else- including as Christians under PA and Hamas rule.

It’s a pity that you didn’t even attempt to visit the Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria. Why not? Was it intentional or simply an oversight?

 

[danrooke]

Hello YKohen,

Are we what?

There are black moments in the church’s history where the sinners have been able to exercise power. In most of the statements you’ve provided there are examples of non-Catholics/non-Christians abusing power over Christians. Or an individual is claiming to be Catholic but teaching something that is not Catholic. These are valid reasons to seek change.

Equally to respond to heresy with pure anger and death is a terrible human fault, and is not catholic, even if the church had then allowed it.

Should Israel, Should Palestine, Should anyone, be allowed to commit the same mistakes? No. We all know that persecution is fundamentally wrong.

There is a major difference between a Settlement and a settler. The Settlement is illegal, which is a nation building upon another nation. The settler is not illegal, the settler is allowed to buy a house in Bethlehem or any place, and I can buy a house in France. The people are not necessarily at fault, it is the person who said it was ok build the first place.

So, If you’re asking “should we forgive without repentance?” then yes. But that only works if the violation is thus repented. A wrong action can be forgiven but it must be still be stopped. Forgiving a serial killer is right but letting a serial killer continue is wrong.

Dan.

 

[epan]

Hello YKohen,

Are we what?

There are black moments in the church’s history where the sinners have been able to exercise power. In most of the statements you’ve provided there are examples of non-Catholics/non-Christians abusing power over Christians. Or an individual is claiming to be Catholic but teaching something that is not Catholic. These are valid reasons to seek change.

Equally to respond to heresy with pure anger and death is a terrible human fault, and is not catholic, even if the church had then allowed it.

Should Israel, Should Palestine, Should anyone, be allowed to commit the same mistakes? No. We all know that persecution is fundamentally wrong.

There is a major difference between a Settlement and a settler. The Settlement is illegal, which is a nation building upon another nation. The settler is not illegal, the settler is allowed to buy a house in Bethlehem or any place, and I can buy a house in France. The people are not necessarily at fault, it is the person who said it was ok build the first place.

So, If you’re asking “should we forgive without repentance?” then yes. But that only works if the violation is thus repented. A wrong action can be forgiven but it must be still be stopped. Forgiving a serial killer is right but letting a serial killer continue is wrong.

Dan.

The relationship between Israel and the government and people in the Palestinian areas is a thorn in the foot (if you will), which only festers. It has been this way for so long that it evokes an immediate and visceral reaction from many Arabs, probably most of them.

I have not read the UN Panel’s recent decision, but I do believe that the Israeli’s have been in violation of the Geneva Conventions all along, because any occupying power is responsible for the health and welfare of the occupied population. This would include providing adequate water, food, health services, and so on… to the best of the occupier’s ability. If anything, the Israeli’s use their authority to deny these basic services to the Palestinians. This, in fact, is a violation.

If you look at the legalities in terms of the right to occupy, or not to occupy, each side could make a case, on the one hand, Israel would cite security, on the other the Palestinians would cite sovereignty.

My opinion is that with modern “over the horizon” weapons systems, that Israel’s security requirements to hold the high ground (Golan Heights), which started all of this, no longer exists.

 

[danrooke]

Hello YKohen,

This post is a reply to your second.

You are right to be suspicious, maybe we were a little apprehensive upon arrival, I find whenever I travel I am nervous. And my fears are never allayed, whether its France or Ireland, I fear. There was nothing malicious about going to the Holy Land on our part, and yet we were treated as unwanted.

Can I put this to you, what does being Jewish mean? is it a faith or a race?

As a faith there have always been those of Jewish faith in the Holy Land, at times under oppression, at times thriving. As a race, there are many parallels to that of other countries and races that have over time changed drastically. The Palestinians were not historically Arab, what is English is made from a mixture of French, German and Danish and America is a colonial nation. So too is the makeup of the current Israel, with many coming from different parts of the world. Do the English have a right to England? The Americans to America? Yes. Do the Arabs and the Israeli’s to the Holy Land? YES. Should one terrorise the other, no. The fact is that history has no justification in this matter as both have a reasonable case.

Not to say history is irrelevant on the national makeup of the matter, but it is no reason for war. Do you see what I mean?

I would have loved to have gone to other places, but my role was as a volunteer teaching English, it was not a holiday. Having said that, I did indeed visit places on the Israeli side, the newer parts of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, it was that which changed a hard pro-Palestinian viewpoint to a hard view on a want to see peace. But see that didn’t change the existence of the wall or the settlements, the checkpoints and the outposts. An occupation exists, and it should not be so. But who should repent? i don’t think the citizens of Israel are guilty nor the Palestinians, it must be those that have the power for the conflict to continue. It must be they who change.

I may have been out of line, and I am sorry to have cause anger. I don’t want to, I am only recounting the things I have experienced.

Dan.

 

[danrooke]

epan,

Good points, I believe that what you have said is accurate.

Dan.

 

[YKohen]

There are black moments in the church’s history where the sinners have been able to exercise power. In most of the statements you’ve provided there are examples of non-Catholics/non-Christians abusing power over Christians. Or an individual is claiming to be Catholic but teaching something that is not Catholic. These are valid reasons to seek change. Equally to respond to heresy with pure anger and death is a terrible human fault, and is not catholic, even if the church had then allowed it.

1. These are Papal Bulls and other official Chuch documents that I am citing. With Papal infallability, you can’t possibly claim that they are “black moments” or the like and still be within Chuch teachings.
2. I provided a wide range of situations where there is no forgiveness without repentance. This was the issue.
3. These were not simply “seeking change”. MLK “sought change”.

Should Israel,

We don’t.

Should Palestine,

“Palestine” doesn’t exist.They have chosen war and terror instead, but both the PA and Hamas do.

There is a major difference between a Settlement and a settler. The Settlement is illegal, which is a nation building upon another nation. The settler is not illegal, the settler is allowed to buy a house in Bethlehem or any place, and I can buy a house in France. The people are not necessarily at fault, it is the person who said it was ok build the first place.

Incorrect. Again, Jews always lived here. We’re not “settlers”. We’re the indigenous people- who were ethnically cleansed from here by the Arabs in 1948 (1929 in Hebron, Gaza, and elsewhere).

Telling Jews where we can and cannot live, how we can and cannot live, is illegal.

And FYI: According to the Arabs’ “law”, it is a capital ofense to even SELL land to a Jew- i.e. death penalty.

We will not tolerate any of that- not here in OUR land.

You didn’t answer my question about trying to visit the Jewish communities here and speak with the Jews.

 

[YKohen]

The relationship between Israel and the government and people in the Palestinian areas is a thorn in the foot (if you will), which only festers…

1. Odd. For the 19 years when we were ethnically cleansed from here, the Arabs still vowed- and tried, to “throw the Jews into the sea”.
2. For territories to be occupied, they must be occupied from a STATE:

Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949

Article 2: …the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties…"

icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e636b/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5?OpenDocument

“High Contracting Parties” mean STATES- not the PLO or some mythical place called “Palestine”, which was NEVER a state.

It seems that the UN has difficulty reading plain English.

1. The Arabs here do have adequate water, food, health services, and so on. In fact, you should see how many mansions there are that Americans can only dream about.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Funny how those supporting the Palestinians will jump on an anecdotal comment that purports to support their position while in the same breath denouncing as anecdotal any such comment made by someone that supports the Israeli position.

Hypocrites.

 

[YKohen]

You are right to be suspicious, maybe we were a little apprehensive upon arrival, I find whenever I travel I am nervous. And my fears are never allayed, whether its France or Ireland, I fear. There was nothing malicious about going to the Holy Land on our part, and yet we were treated as unwanted.

Very odd, because millions of people visit Israel every year- and more Catholics visit than even Protestants. 99.9% have no issues. Clearly, there were red flags up for a reason- and given your itinerary, I understand why. Especially because many foreign anarchists come here specifically to cause trouble.

Can I put this to you, what does being Jewish mean? is it a faith or a race?

As per the Bible, we are a nation. For instance:

Exodus 19:6 But you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 For you are a nation consecrated to the L-rd your G-d: of all the nations on earth the L-rd your G-d chose you to be His treasured nation. It is not because you are the most numerous of nations that the L-rd set His heart on you and chose you indeed, you are the smallest of nations; but it was because the L-rd favored you and kept the oath He made to your fathers that the L-rd freed you with a mighty hand and rescued you from the house of bondage, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 14:2 For you are a nation consecrated to the L-rd your G-d: the L-rd your G-d chose you from among all other nations on earth to be His treasured nation.

Deuteronomy 26:5 You shall then recite as follows before the L-rd your G-d: My father was a fugitive Aramean. He went down to Egypt with meager numbers and sojourned there; but there he became a great and very populous nation.

And the land of Israel is the land of the nation of Israel (as per the hundreds of verses that attest to this).

Do the English have a right to England? The Americans to America? Yes. Do the Arabs and the Israeli’s to the Holy Land? YES.

NO!!!

The nation of Israel is the English of England- but with G-d’s promise.

I would have loved to have gone to other places, but my role was as a volunteer teaching English, it was not a holiday. Having said that, I did indeed visit places on the Israeli side, the newer parts of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, it was that which changed a hard pro-Palestinian viewpoint to a hard view on a want to see peace.

It’s closer from the Arab settlements where you taught to the Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria than to Tel Aviv. Pity.

But see that didn’t change the existence of the wall or the settlements, the checkpoints and the outposts.

The security fense only went up in response to continued Arab suicide bombings. There were no checkpoints until 1990 and the terror back then. it used to be that Arabs from Hebron or Schechem would travel freely anywhere they wanted to; to work, to go to the beach, to sightsee. Their own terror was the cause of the changes.

They’re like the guy who murders his parents and then cries for mercy on the grounds of being an orphan.

PS There are very few checkpoints now in any case. Almost all have been removed.

 

[YKohen]

Funny how those supporting the Palestinians will jump on an anecdotal comment that purports to support their position while in the same breath denouncing as anecdotal any such comment made by someone that supports the Israeli position.

Hypocrites.

Bingo- and unlike some others’ anecdotal comments, mine are from living here day in and day out for decades; not just a brief visit (with preconceived notions).

 

[epan]

1. Odd. For the 19 years when we were ethnically cleansed from here, the Arabs still vowed- and tried, to “throw the Jews into the sea”.
2. For territories to be occupied, they must be occupied from a STATE:

Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949

Article 2: …the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties…"

icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e636b/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5?OpenDocument

“High Contracting Parties” mean STATES- not the PLO or some mythical place called “Palestine”, which was NEVER a state.

It seems that the UN has difficulty reading plain English.

1. The Arabs here do have adequate water, food, health services, and so on. In fact, you should see how many mansions there are that Americans can only dream about.

I have seen the area. Your statements contradict what I have seen, and what most independent observers have seen.

But reading your post reinforces my conviction that neither party will act reasonably in this matter, and that a peaceful solution will remain elusive. I hold parties both sides equally responsible.

In a perfect world, each side would accept their respective blame, ask for forgiveness, and forgive the other side. Failing that (obviously), there are measures which could be taken to move toward that goal.

 

[YKohen]

Really. Where were you in my area? Let’s discuss specifics and not just generalities from “most independent observers”.

Ramallah building boom symbolizes West Bank growth

As to a solution and your talk of some sort of moral equivalence, here’s a reality-check: The simple fact is that the would-have-been “Palestinians” could have had a state in peace, but chose war on MANY occasions- INSTEAD:

The would-have-been “Palestinians” would have had a state IN PEACE in 1937 with the Peel Plan, but they violently rejected it.

They would have had a state IN PEACE in 1939 with the MacDonald White Paper, but they violently rejected it (and Jews would have even been restricted from BUYING land from Arabs).

They would have had a state IN PEACE in 1948 with UN 181, but they violently rejected it (and actually claimed that the UN had no such mandate!).

They could have had a state IN PEACE in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza from 1948-1967 without any Jews- because the Arabs had ethnically cleansed every last one; but they violently rejected it. In fact, that’s exactly when they established Fatah (1959) and the PLO (1964).

They could have had a state IN PEACE after 1967, but instead, the entire Arab world issued the Khartoum Resolutions:

A. No peace with Israel
B. No recognition of Israel
C. No negotiations with Israel

They would have had a state IN PEACE in 2000 with the Oslo Accords, but they violently rejected it- as always.

And as soon as Israel pulled every single Israeli out of Gaza, what did the would-have-been “Palestinians” do? They immediately started shooting thousands of missiles into Israeli population centers, they elected Hamas (whose official platform calls for jihad with no negotiations until Israel is destroyed) to rule them, and they have dug tunnels crossing into the Negev to kill and kidnap Israelis.

And even afterwards, Ehud Olmert made his subsequent generous offer that went far beyond even that of Barak. The would-have-been “Palestinians” rejected it.

They had many chances.

They threw them all away because destroying Israel was higher on their priority list. It still is.

Here is their “President” Abbas speaking:

"DON’T PRESENT TO US ‘THE JEWISH STATE’. WE WILL NEVER ACCEPT IT. WE WILL NEVER ACCEPT THESE SAYINGS.

youtube.com/watch?v=CdqoMKZaTxU&feature=player_embedded

Abbas vows: No room for Israelis in Palestinian state
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH
12/25/2010

jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=200935

Abbas Zaki of Fatah Admits, “Wiping Out Israel Main Goal”

youtube.com/watch?v=eB9lkfcfKic

memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/3130.htm

PA Religious Official Publicly Calls for Genocide of Jews

israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/151758#.TxO0WoF22So

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kDoV8ZL9Xkc

Nabil Shaath: We’ll Never Accept “Two-States for Two Peoples” Solution

youtube.com/watch?v=-CkImOGcHcw

There is no moral equivalence here.

 

[OneSheep]

OneSheep,

Put it this way, how would I forgive a man attacking my brother? It is difficult, why? Because a grave injustice has been done. But I know I should forgive, so I do forgive. This is very much the attitude I found in Palestine, a country fed up of war, just wanting to be free. It is not I who first forgave the Israeli Gov., it was Palestine. The anger you hear from them is not of racism, or xenophobia, or religion, it is a deep sadness at the loss of home and stability. They are willing to fight to tell Israel that they want peace, even if their voice is never properly heard. They forgive so that they have hope in a future, and I forgive.

I am with you on the “forgiving of my brother’s enemy”. Many are very hesitant to do so, because it seems an affront to one’s brother. But forgiveness is about one’s relationship with God - through one another. It is most Holy to be at one with everyone we hold something against. I ask myself the question, “Why would I do exactly the same thing as what the (i.e.) Israeli government is doing?” What would be my drive, and where would be my blindness? Answering these questions in prayer brings me to a place of oneness with those I resented. They are just like me, and that is a good thing. This is my walk in their moccasins.

Concerning the statement that they are “willing to fight to tell Israel that they want peace” this reminds me of the common anti-war poster: “Using aggression to stop war is like @#*%ing to stop promiscuity.” I think that there is plenty of hatred and resentment on both sides, understandably so. Forgiveness needs to happen. We talk about our win-lose situations or our rarer win-win situations; forgiveness is a win-win-win situation. I win, my enemy wins, and God wins.

Your right Justice, Peace and Forgiveness can all be interchangeable in war time. But I don’t understand what you mean by the more peaceful faith. To my mind there are many fundamentalist Christian/Muslim/Jewish groups in world who hold views of chaos, yet all three are mostly filled with people of peaceful faith. Hence this conclusion, who in this conflict is benefitting? Not the Christian, Not the Muslim, Not the Jew, not either nation. But why does it happen? Why start a war that hurts every one of every faith? There I think evil exists in the minds of the instigator, and the one who is in control of continuing the war. What more can be said? Peace means mutual forgiveness, Fair compromise and the justice of God. I’m not entirely sure, but I think someone said on this forum, they are both to blame; this is not right, the blame rests with the father of the aggression, each one who is left is a victim.

Blindness is the father of the dehumanization that precedes the aggression. When I want something very badly, and someone or something stands in the way, the obstructing person is put in a place in my mind where my empathy is blocked. When I am in the mode where I am blaming someone for something, that is, I hold something against him, this person goes to that same place in my mind; again, my empathy is blocked and I am blind to this person’s wants and needs. I am blind to their value as a person. Jesus was put on the cross by people of the same condition. Sorry if I am sounding preachy. We are all capable of such blindness; forgiveness does not come naturally, we have to be reminded, it is an act of the will. That is why the Church encourages us to say the Lord’s prayer every day.

When I wrote “more peaceful faith”, I think I somewhat meant it as a challenge to the faiths themselves. “Who is going to forgive first?” is a much better pursuit than “Who can do more damage to their enemy?”. The call for forgiveness can be heard from Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. Who is going to start? We all can.

I would be careful in accusing Iran like some evil superpower, firstly is power is vastly over estimated, and secondly the view from the Arabs is that Palestine has a very powerful nuclear enemy with even more powerful nuclear Allies, USA, EU, etc. They are just as worried about the situation. Palestine is seen as being eaten up by the west, along with the rest of the Middle East and North-Africa. There have been talks even of re-building the temple which will mean the destruction of one of the most holy shires in Islam.

Yes, caring for the helpless, and having the possibility of loss of territory for one’s “ingroup” motivates both sides. Those who accuse the other will hopefully learn to forgive, and once they do so, go to the table to work things out. Negotiation by itself seems fruitless. Negotiation in the absence of forgiveness does not erase the resentment.

Caution should be given whenever we give a negative attachment to a name, It means we either don’t know about them enough to trust or we are not forgiving and loving them. “Love Thy Neighbour”.

Yes, I agree. Whenever we say “he is an evil person” we are probably coming from a position of blindness. However, such a statement can be meant in a number of different ways.

(continued)

 

[OneSheep]

From Dan:

So why condemn the Israeli government? Well, why condemn Stalin? He caused so much destruction that he needed to be stopped from doing more, that is how many see the actions of the Israeli state, a country that has crossed the line too many times. And the settlements are this idea manifest, building on land that does not belong to them.

I think I may have changed my argument? If I have it’s because I agree that no one should be made to blame yet we can still say that Stalin was a terrible man, do you see?

I don’t see much to gain in condemning the Israeli government. I think it is worthwhile, however, to point out policies and actions that we observe to be hurtful and provocative. Stalin did terrible things, but I forgive him because I know his blindness. I am not excusing his blindness, that is, I am not saying that the living Stalin should have been free of actions to deter or remove him from being a danger to people. I forgive him because that is what God calls me to do, and such forgiveness puts my mind and heart in a place of acceptance and compassion.

 

[OneSheep]

…

1520 “Exsurge Domine” by Pope Leo X: Demands that Martin Luther retract 41 of his 95 theses, as well as other specified errors, within sixty days of its publication in neighbouring regions to Saxony. The following year there was “Decet Romanum Pontificem” that excommunicated him.

papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm

No forgiveness without repentance.

And there’s also the whole issue of Galileo: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Trial

No forgiveness without repentance.

I can provide many many more such examples, but these should suffice to those who are intellectually honest…

YKohen, you continue to impress me with not only your wealth of knowledge, but also with your ability to gather information. In my opinion you have adequately stated your case that the Catholic Church has often failed to forgive. I have not looked into all of your examples, but I have no reason to doubt your assertions. We are all human. All of us fail to forgive at one time or another. Do keep in mind, though, that a person can reject another’s ideas or even excommunicate someone while forgiving them. “I forgive you, but I can no longer allow your ideas to disseminate, for they are a danger. I understand your point of view and can see that your assertions make sense to you, but I am excommunicating you because the flock needs to know that your message is to be rejected.” I don’t know, maybe that is a stretch. I just find it hard to point at anyone and say “you are not forgiving”; it is an assumption I would rather not make. That is why I ask first.

Also, I want to thank you for illustrating the point that the approach of “I’m right, and you are wrong” goes absolutely nowhere. First of all, when we get into those types of arguments, the whole aspect of winning trumps the quest for truth. The truth is that both sides feel resentment and hatred. The truth is that both sides see injustice for their people. This is the truth. Trying to change the other’s point of view goes nowhere.

You can do better than popes who failed to forgive.

I have “cleaned up” some of the wordiness of this, and I present this to try again. When people forgive, both sides win, and G-d wins too:

Let me be a Palestinian for a moment. YKohen, your people have taken my land and have killed my children. I know you think I have deserved this. I forgive you. I understand your position, and I will no longer hold it against you. You see this land as yours, and you fear us and despise us, especially when we react violently. I am just as capable of wanting your land and despising you, and in fact I am guilty of these things too. I have in the past wanted to continue punishing you for what you have done to me, but I no longer want to do so. I am forgiving you even though you have not repented from taking our land, restricting our freedom, and killing us. I am doing so because this is the reconciliation and peace that my soul wants.

What is your response to this Palestinian?

And please excuse me, I don’t remember if you had an aversion to the use of the word “Palestinian”. Feel free to mentally substitute your preferred term (assuming it is not durogatory ).

 

[OneSheep]

In a perfect world, each side would accept their respective blame, ask for forgiveness, and forgive the other side. Failing that (obviously), there are measures which could be taken to move toward that goal.

Yes, and one of the measures to be taken is to make forgiveness central to the discussion. The vision I have is this, because “a perfect world” is what we call God’s kingdom: That religious leaders, not politicians, work toward guiding their people to forgiving all the parties involved. Forgiveness would be practiced locally, that is, between each person and God, but would also be communicated globally. This would take some coordination from dedicated people, but I see Israel and Palestine changing from a land of enmity to a land that stands as a beacon to the world, a beacon that shines the message that the human race is capable of great love and compassion.

Who could then stop the tide of people who would want to pilgrimage to Israel and Palestine? This would not only be a regional achievement, it would be an achievement for the whole human race.

 

[YKohen]

In my opinion you have adequately stated your case that the Catholic Church has often failed to forgive. I have not looked into all of your examples, but I have no reason to doubt your assertions. We are all human. All of us fail to forgive at one time or another.

My point is not that the Church has “failed to forgive”. My point is that even in Catholicism, there is no such thing as forgiving without repentance. These Papal Bulls and other Church documents and actions bear that out.

You, as a Catholic, have a principle of Papal infallibility. From a traditional Catholic position, it cannot possibly be that the Popes have failed on a doctrinal level.

Do keep in mind, though, that a person can reject another’s ideas or even excommunicate someone while forgiving them.

Absolutely true, although the excommunicating part would be problematic from that position.

“I forgive you, but I can no longer allow your ideas to disseminate, for they are a danger. I understand your point of view and can see that your assertions make sense to you, but I am excommunicating you because the flock needs to know that your message is to be rejected.” I don’t know, maybe that is a stretch.

IMHO, it is. This isn’t what the Church did, and if you look at all of the examples that I brought, it is clear.

You can do better than popes who failed to forgive.

1. See my above comment about Papal infallibility. I would ask why I should be more Catholic than the Pope, but it just doesn’t work.
2. It isn’t a Jewish concept. As I have pointed out, there is no forgiveness without repentance:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10344254#post10344254

I have “cleaned up” some of the wordiness of this, and I present this to try again. When people forgive, both sides win, and G-d wins too:

And I disagree: when there is forgiveness without repentance, it only leads to injustice and tyranny.

Let me be a Palestinian for a moment. YKohen, your people have taken my land and have killed my children…

.
Again, since this isn’t what happened, it is moot. It’s like me asking if you still beat your wife.

 

[chosen_people]

Dear all,

Upon reading some of the reply’s from this forum, I felt it my obligation to sign up an provide a voice. Last year I volunteered with catholic organisations, Palestine Pilgrimage, Cambridge Nazareth trust (CNT), and was supported by my local parish and the local catholic schools to go to the west bank to teach English to Palestinian children of different faiths. My friend and I were assigned a summer camp in a placed called Beit Jala, just outside of Bethlehem. We were sleeping in a seminary, and our weekdays comprised of simply waking up, going to the summer camp, and either playing games or actually teaching English. At the weekends we travelled to different parts of the country to some of the Holy shires, to Jerusalem, to Ramallah (Interim capital if you didn’t know) and other places. Aside from the many friends I made while over there, I also saw the issues that plague the Palestinian People. We saw the Wall, Large and imposing, the security with their big guns (I’m English, so I hadn’t seen a security officer carrying guns as liberally as they were). I listened to the stories from the people, a priest named Fr Firas told of the many injustices of the Israeli government, and friend who showed me many pictures of Bullets being shot into her former home before being demolished. Traveling was a nightmare to be honest, took us nearly 2 hours to get from Ramallah to Beit Jala. But ever with all of this things standing in the way of the Palestinians we were treated very well by both Christians and Muslims in the West Bank, and the only time a level of frustration surfaced it was directed at the situation and the leaders of Israel not the people. I thoroughly love my Christian Brothers and Sisters in the West Bank, I have personal relationships with them and although I did not have such a relationship with an Israeli people, I Love them too. However there is an injustice going on, the nation of Israel is fundamentally not innocent of the crimes they have committed, and historically speaking they were the aggressors allowed by the Uk in 1947/8. The settlements are a mixture of military outposts and colonial structures which serve to cut the land up, inhibiting free travel for Palestinians, which is a very important issue, but also the are islands. There was not a single Israeli in the West bank other than those behind the fortifications/in settlements on hills. I beg all Catholics, in accordance with catholic teaching and catholic obligation to try an understand that Palestinians are not terrorists, they are an occupied people, Palestinians are not all Muslim, they are of many faiths, Palestinians do not hate the Jewish, they fundamentally want peace and it is the Israeli government who are blocking dialogue.

The two greatest victims of the Israeli government are Palestinians who are being killed and forced from their land, and the normal Israeli who is being consistently psychologically tortured by the fear mongering of the Regime.

So with those things in mind I find I highly offensive that one feels justified in supporting the Israeli government and its Illegal settlements when both are harming all the people who currently live in the holy land.

God Love You,

Daniel Rooke

You mean the Beit Jalla where Palestinian Arabs would shoot daily at Israeli Jews, men, women and children, when they were walking in the street or in their living rooms?

jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=184550

or Bethlehem where since being given over to Palestinian Authority has endlessly persecuted and driven off most of its Christian population

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704304504574610022765965390.html

But then the children of Deggendorf are so well versed in making up lies to justify hate of Jews and the Jewish State. It’s good to know they are still alive and well.

fighthatred.com/historical-events/pogroms-razzias/823-killing-jews-for-profit-and-profit-in-medieval-bavaria