UN Panel: Israeli Settlements Are Illegal

[Dakota_Roberts]

I realize people say this, and further research might be worthwhile, but it is my understanding that there was no organized land registration system in the West Bank before the Israelis took it from Jordan. It was more a matter of reputed possession than it was clear “ownership”; something like it is in much of Mexico today.

It it clear that, presently, many Arabs’ ownership is sufficiently clear that they can sell it. Indeed, some Arabs who sell their land to Israelis fear reprisal from other Arabs and leave the area. Some land has been confiscated by israel in connection with terrorist activities. It is, or at least was, the practice to confiscate the land of anyone involved in terrorist activities, bulldoze any buildings on it and hold it. Some land has been, in effect, “condemned” for the purpose of building security structures, roads, etc, in the same sort of way state and the federal governments in the U.S. “condemn” land for public purposes.

But despite hyperbolic anecdotal accounts, Israelis don’t just go in and “seize” Arab property the way people sometimes allege.

Prevent refugee and internally displaced people from returning to their land and letting Israeli settlements be built on it despite it not being part of Israel is seizing it.

 

[YKohen]

The Arabs were refugees of their own doing. They chose war. They tried to ethnically cleanse the Jews. In fact, they did succeed in all of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza- and half of Jerusalem.

And they stole the Jews’ property in those places.

In other areas, some fled. Those who didn’t are citizens of Israel.

Consider this: There were 2.2 million Germans in East Prussia in 1940. More than 2 million were forcibly expelled by 1945.

And this was the case all over. An esimated 12-14 MILLION ethnic Germans were forcibly expelled across Europe; the largest movement or transfer of any population in modern European history.

They were never compensated or allowed to return.

They integrated into the societies where they ended up. They weren’t perpetual refugees.

Like the Arabs, they were the aggressors who lost. Unlike the Arabs, they were forcibly expelled.

And the Jews from Muslim lands? They were NOT the aggressors, there were more of them forcibly expelled, they lost FAR more in assets, and tiny Israel, with very little land and no resources took them in.

The Arab world will once and for all just have to take in their own victims of Arab aggression.

 

[OneSheep]

I do not have any such rule. I believe it is irrelevant at best whether I purport to forgive someone who has injured another. But I believe it’s worse than that. I also feel it is vain and prideful of me to purport to do that when I am in no way harmed by the person’s action.

I agree with you on the irrelevance of forgiving someone toward whom you are not feeling any anger or contempt. What about when people you care about are harmed by someone’s action? I would like to know your thoughts on the grandfather scenarios I posed in post 88.

I do not have any anger toward Palestinians. Please remember again that I have friends who are Palestinians. I do have contempt, as do they, for certain aspects of Arab culture. Many in the Arab world have overcome those negative aspects of the culture, but many have not.

Well, though your tone has been one of resentment toward “Arab neighbors”, “Palestinian leaders” and others, I only specifically remembering that you said you held contempt toward Arafat. I am assuming that either you misstated, or that you have already forgiven them for the wrongs they have done to people you care about. Or am I to assume that none of those involved are people you care about? I don’t believe this is the case. I think you care.

Some of my ancestors were Italian. At one time the “law of vendetta” was a part of Italian culture at times and in places. Most Italians, I believe, have overcome that and no longer live by it. But some still do. It is quite all right for me or anyone else to have contempt for that particular aspect of Italian culture. It does not mean I have contempt for Italians or even the better aspects of Italian culture.

I agree, it is “all right” to hold contempt for cultures, at least to the degree that we can forgive those who uphold those cultures. But as it is very difficult to mentally separate a person from their actions, it is just as difficult to separate a person from their culture. I take the time to forgive the culture too. Vendetta is part of human nature. Someone violates one of our rules, and anger is triggered. I seek to punish the person who violated the rule. If I carry out the punishment, I may violate someone else’s rulebook and trigger their anger. It never ends until someone gives up. This is exactly the type of slavery that we as Christians are called to be free of. This is why we are called to love and forgive one another. Such love is easy when people do not violate our rules; the challenge is to love the people toward who we are feeling negatively.

I am a southern man. While I consider many aspects of Southern culture in a positive way, I realize that oppression of blacks was once pervasive in much of the South. I have contempt for that aspect of the culture. But it is not for me to forgive Southerners of that. It is for black people and God to forgive them.

I forgave the slaveholders for keeping slaves. I naturally felt contempt toward slaveholders, especially, but not exclusively, those who were cruel. I cared about the plight of those who were enslaved. That is the key here, do you agree? “Harm” includes harm to those we care about. The time to forgive is not written in a rulebook, the time to forgive is when we feel those negative emotions.

I forgave the slave culture. They did not know what they were doing in upholding the culture. The culture was based, for the most part, in ignorance. God wants us to forgive for the benefit our own happiness and well-being as well as that of those we detest. Holding onto any contempt or anger is slavery.

 

[OneSheep]

The Arabs were refugees of their own doing. They chose war. They tried to ethnically cleanse the Jews. In fact, they did succeed in all of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza- and half of Jerusalem.

And they stole the Jews’ property in those places.

In other areas, some fled. Those who didn’t are citizens of Israel.

Consider this: There were 2.2 million Germans in East Prussia in 1940. More than 2 million were forcibly expelled by 1945.

And this was the case all over. An esimated 12-14 MILLION ethnic Germans were forcibly expelled across Europe; the largest movement or transfer of any population in modern European history.

They were never compensated or allowed to return.

They integrated into the societies where they ended up. They weren’t perpetual refugees.

Like the Arabs, they were the aggressors who lost. Unlike the Arabs, they were forcibly expelled.

And the Jews from Muslim lands? They were NOT the aggressors, there were more of them forcibly expelled, they lost FAR more in assets, and tiny Israel, with very little land and no resources took them in.

The Arab world will once and for all just have to take in their own victims of Arab aggression.

So, YKohen, perhaps you can give us some insights. Jesus calls us Catholics to love and forgive our enemies. We are certainly not called to let people harm us, but we are called to always love and forgive those who harm us. Since that “harm” also includes toward people we care about, I am called to forgive the Arabs and Germans who did harm to Jews because I care about the wellbeing of the Jewish (and Israeli) people.

How would you suggest one could go about forgiving Arabs and Germans who have done such bad things? I know, it is not part of your religion to forgive as Christians are called to do, but can you make suggestions anyway?

 

[YKohen]

I have explained the Jewish way of repentance in the past. It includes:

• regretting/acknowledging the sin;
• forsaking the sin (see below);
• worrying about the future consequences of the sin;
• acting and speaking with humility;
• acting in a way opposite to that of the sin (for example, for the sin of lying, one should speak the truth);
• understanding the magnitude of the sin;
• refraining from lesser sins for the purpose of safeguarding oneself against committing greater sins;
• confessing the sin (see below);
• praying for atonement;
• correcting the sin however possible (for example, if one stole an object, the stolen item must be returned or if one slanders another, the slanderer must ask the injured party for forgiveness);
• pursuing works of chesed (kindness) and truth;
• remembering the sin for the rest of one’s life;
• refraining from committing the same sin if the opportunity presents itself again;
• teaching others not to sin

.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repentance_in_Judaism

With no repentance required, it would enable monsters like Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot to walk scot-free, and G-d can’t possibly accept that. We don’t. It isn’t just or fair.

After full repentance, on the other hand, one starts anew.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Prevent refugee and internally displaced people from returning to their land and letting Israeli settlements be built on it despite it not being part of Israel is seizing it.

There are two different things here.

First, Arabs who lived in what is now Israel but fled at the behest of Arab countries who attacked Israel. They are not being allowed to come back and reclaim the land they abandoned. The Arabs who stayed are now Israeli citizens and can own land in Israel to the extent anybody can own land in Israel.

Second, Arabs who owned land in the West Bank, but no longer do because:
-They sold it to Israelis or to other Arabs. I see no reason why they should be allowed to reclaim it.
-It was confiscated because it belonged to terrorists. The U.S. Dept of Justice does the same thing in the case of drug or other criminal operations. Hard to justify them getting it back in either case.
-It was condemned for a public purpose. All countries do this. Hard to see why they should be able to reclaim it if they were compensated for it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I agree with you on the irrelevance of forgiving someone toward whom you are not feeling any anger or contempt. What about when people you care about are harmed by someone’s action? I would like to know your thoughts on the grandfather scenarios I posed in post 88.

Well, though your tone has been one of resentment toward “Arab neighbors”, “Palestinian leaders” and others, I only specifically remembering that you said you held contempt toward Arafat. I am assuming that either you misstated, or that you have already forgiven them for the wrongs they have done to people you care about. Or am I to assume that none of those involved are people you care about? I don’t believe this is the case. I think you care.

I agree, it is “all right” to hold contempt for cultures, at least to the degree that we can forgive those who uphold those cultures. But as it is very difficult to mentally separate a person from their actions, it is just as difficult to separate a person from their culture. I take the time to forgive the culture too. Vendetta is part of human nature. Someone violates one of our rules, and anger is triggered. I seek to punish the person who violated the rule. If I carry out the punishment, I may violate someone else’s rulebook and trigger their anger. It never ends until someone gives up. This is exactly the type of slavery that we as Christians are called to be free of. This is why we are called to love and forgive one another. Such love is easy when people do not violate our rules; the challenge is to love the people toward who we are feeling negatively.

I forgave the slaveholders for keeping slaves. I naturally felt contempt toward slaveholders, especially, but not exclusively, those who were cruel. I cared about the plight of those who were enslaved. That is the key here, do you agree? “Harm” includes harm to those we care about. The time to forgive is not written in a rulebook, the time to forgive is when we feel those negative emotions.

I forgave the slave culture. They did not know what they were doing in upholding the culture. The culture was based, for the most part, in ignorance. God wants us to forgive for the benefit our own happiness and well-being as well as that of those we detest. Holding onto any contempt or anger is slavery.

We have been around and around with this. Let’s do this. If you can find a doctrine of the Church that says I have the right and obligation to forgive the action of a wrongdoer against somebody other than me, then I’ll look at it. There are innumerable references to the duty to forgive someone who wrongs me, but I have never seen one where I am given the right and duty to forgive someone who wrongs someone else but has not wronged me.

If you think such a commandment exists, produce it. Otherwise, we’re just spinning our wheels here.

 

[estesbob]

So, YKohen, perhaps you can give us some insights. Jesus calls us Catholics to love and forgive our enemies. We are certainly not called to let people harm us, but we are called to always love and forgive those who harm us. Since that “harm” also includes toward people we care about, I am called to forgive the Arabs and Germans who did harm to Jews because I care about the wellbeing of the Jewish (and Israeli) people.

How would you suggest one could go about forgiving Arabs and Germans who have done such bad things? I know, it is not part of your religion to forgive as Christians are called to do, but can you make suggestions anyway?

I am at a loss as to why this has anything whatsoever to do with the legality of illegal settlements? I suspect the Israelis dont particularly want an apology from Hamas-just acknowledging Israel has a right to exist and they no longer desire to drive them into the sea would probably suffice

 

[YKohen]

Let’s be clear here. Jews ALWAYS lived in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. ALWAYS.

Well, obviously Jews lived here during Biblical times. We all know that.

If you look at the documents from the Cairo Geniza, dating back to the 9th century, you’ll find that there were Jews in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.

If you look at travelers’ accounts from the Early Middle Ages, such as Nahmanides, Benjamin of Tudela, and a host of others, you’ll find that there were Jews in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.

Rabbi Jechiel Ashkenazi, who was actually Sepharadi, purchased the Karite synagogue of Hebron in 1540 on behalf of the Sepharadi congregants.

If you read about Shabtai Tzvi, the false messiah of the 16th century, you’ll find that his “prophet” was Nathan of Gaza, where the center of his movement was located for a period.

In 1834, Hebron was taken by storm by Abraim Pasha, and given up to his soldiers for several days. Most of the Muslims fled to the surrounding hills, but the Jews couldn’t, and since they weren’t involved in any of the political feuds, they weren’t particularly worried (since they wouldn’t be viewed as rebels). When Abraim went to take Hebron, a petition was presented to him by the officers of the Jewish congregation in Jerusalem to protect the Jewish inhabitants of Hebron, which he promised to do; but still, five Jews were deliberately murdered, and all of their property that hadn’t been hidden was either stolen or destroyed. Only then, did Abraim place a guard around their quarter of the town, but it was too late. He wasn’t going to try and force his soldiers to give back the stolen booty. The Hebron Jewish community was impoverished- but they were still in Hebron.

In fact, except for the periods of 1929-1931 and 1936-1968, there has been a significant Jewish presence in Hebron SINCE BIBLICAL TIMES.

The ONLY period of time where there were no Jews in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza was between 1948-1967, when the Arabs ethnically-cleansed us from here.

Now we’re back home again, where we ALWAYS were- FOR GOOD- BY RIGHT.

The Arab ethnic cleansing of Jews was illegal. Jews living where Jews always lived isn’t.

 

[OneSheep]

We have been around and around with this. Let’s do this. If you can find a doctrine of the Church that says I have the right and obligation to forgive the action of a wrongdoer against somebody other than me, then I’ll look at it. There are innumerable references to the duty to forgive someone who wrongs me, but I have never seen one where I am given the right and duty to forgive someone who wrongs someone else but has not wronged me.

If you think such a commandment exists, produce it. Otherwise, we’re just spinning our wheels here.

Mark 11:24-25

New International Version (NIV)

24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

I think this is quite clear, Ridgerunner. If you do not hold anything against anyone, then there is no call to forgive, so if you do not hold anything against Arafat or anyone else, then there is no obligation.

The guide to use is not direct harm against us. If someone hurts someone we care about, and we “hold it against them”, we are to forgive. If someone even hurts someone we don;t care about, and yet we still “hold it against them” then we are to forgive.

We are to listen to our hearts. Can you not see that such forgiveness truly brings forth what we call “The Kingdom of God”? For every one person who is wronged, there are many who empathize and condemn the person who does the evil. When a Palestinian goes and blows himself up in a bus full of Israelis, are we not all angry and resentful? One bomb leads to billions of people feeling condemnation toward the assailant. The answer: No, we are not all angry and resentful. Those of us who hold something against the Israelis may think that the Israelis deserved it. Resentment blinds us.

Luke 6:36-37

New Living Translation (NLT)

36 You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate.
37 “Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn others, or it will all come back against you. Forgive others, and you will be forgiven.

The question is not whether we are to forgive. The question is how we are to forgive, do you agree?

 

[OneSheep]

I have explained the Jewish way of repentance in the past. It includes:

• regretting/acknowledging the sin;
• forsaking the sin (see below);
• worrying about the future consequences of the sin;
• acting and speaking with humility;
• acting in a way opposite to that of the sin (for example, for the sin of lying, one should speak the truth);
• understanding the magnitude of the sin;
• refraining from lesser sins for the purpose of safeguarding oneself against committing greater sins;
• confessing the sin (see below);
• praying for atonement;
• correcting the sin however possible (for example, if one stole an object, the stolen item must be returned or if one slanders another, the slanderer must ask the injured party for forgiveness);
• pursuing works of chesed (kindness) and truth;
• remembering the sin for the rest of one’s life;
• refraining from committing the same sin if the opportunity presents itself again;
• teaching others not to sin

.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repentance_in_Judaism

With no repentance required, it would enable monsters like Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot to walk scot-free, and G-d can’t possibly accept that. We don’t. It isn’t just or fair.

After full repentance, on the other hand, one starts anew.

Well, YKohen, I did not ask about repentance, but you gave me the information anyway. That’s okay, I know you see repentance as very important, and it is.

So, we Christians are rather fond of a Jew who said the things I quoted in my last post to Ridgerunner. He said these things among a people who held a lot of resentment against the Romans. This resentment against the Romans was very understandable. How could they possibly forgive the unrepentant Romans? But Jesus did forgive the Romans, and forgave the unrepentant folks who hung Him on the cross. Many Jews of His time were likely quite resentful of Jesus’ call to forgive.

It is relatively easy to forgive those who repent. After all, a huge part of holding onto hatred and resentment is that the situation is not in control. When our enemy repents, then the situation is suddenly more in control, and the psychological pressure of lack of control is relieved. Jesus calls us Catholics to take the more difficult path. You have no obligation to regard Jesus’ words, but plenty of Jewish people do, and I am quite certain that Jesus is not the only Jew ever to call for unconditional forgiveness. I know it is very difficult. A local here, Fred Luskin, from the Stanford Forgiveness institute, wrote Forgive For Good. He gives a lot of practical suggestions based on his research. I had lunch with him one day, he is a very wise person.

So, what is the Jewish way to forgive? Does it involve understanding the others’ point of view? Does it involve prayer?

Forgiveness does not mean refrain from protecting ourselves or letting a dangerous person continue to harm others. If we Christians have time to forgive, we are to forgive, even before we go to battle.

 

[OneSheep]

I am at a loss as to why this has anything whatsoever to do with the legality of illegal settlements? I suspect the Israelis dont particularly want an apology from Hamas-just acknowledging Israel has a right to exist and they no longer desire to drive them into the sea would probably suffice

The way I see it, I can go to any foreign policy website or look at the comments following any world news article and read the posts of people angrily pointing their fingers at each other or at each others’ opinions or “ingroup”. I can hear it on radio or any number of other places where love and forgiveness are not the guiding factor.

To me, this forum is to be a place where the bottom line is how to find the Catholic Answers to the world’s problems, and the Catholic is to begin from the position of forgiveness. So, legality is an issue, but we Catholics are to come to the discussion table having already forgiven all the parties involved. This is how I began with Ridgerunner, and that is where our discussion took us. He brought up a lot of very important points to consider, but I think the Gospel is clear on what we are called to do.

I look at CAF to be a totally different forum, a forum that truly shines forth a Christian approach. People can argue anywhere else about who is to blame. Here, let’s start with how to reconcile and take it from there. What do you think?

So, have you forgiven the Israelis and Palestinians, or instead, have you never held anything against either party?

 

[YKohen]

Well, YKohen, I did not ask about repentance, but you gave me the information anyway. That’s okay, I know you see repentance as very important, and it is.

You asked about forgiveness. Repentence is the sine qua non to forgiveness.

So, we Christians are rather fond of a Jew who said the things I quoted in my last post to Ridgerunner. He said these things among a people who held a lot of resentment against the Romans. This resentment against the Romans was very understandable. How could they possibly forgive the unrepentant Romans? But Jesus did forgive the Romans, and forgave the unrepentant folks who hung Him on the cross. Many Jews of His time were likely quite resentful of Jesus’ call to forgive.

I can understand that. The Torah shows us how to repent because there can be no forgiveness without changing one’s ways- turning away from evil.

It is relatively easy to forgive those who repent.

Not necessarily.

After all, a huge part of holding onto hatred and resentment is that the situation is not in control…

Not in the least. That would also mean that G-d holds onto hatred and resentment because He isn’t in control too. Again:

• regretting/acknowledging the sin;
• forsaking the sin (see below);
• worrying about the future consequences of the sin;
• acting and speaking with humility;
• acting in a way opposite to that of the sin (for example, for the sin of lying, one should speak the truth);
• understanding the magnitude of the sin;
• refraining from lesser sins for the purpose of safeguarding oneself against committing greater sins;
• confessing the sin (see below);
• praying for atonement;
• correcting the sin however possible (for example, if one stole an object, the stolen item must be returned or if one slanders another, the slanderer must ask the injured party for forgiveness);
• pursuing works of chesed and truth;
• remembering the sin for the rest of one’s life;
• refraining from committing the same sin if the opportunity presents itself again;
• teaching others not to sin.

If there isn’t this, then there isn’t recognition that what you did was wrong. This means that there is no need to change. This means that you continue to sin.

One must strive to leave sin behind and become a better person. G-d demands that.

So, what is the Jewish way to forgive? Does it involve understanding the others’ point of view? Does it involve prayer?

After the party in the wrong repents (and makes restitution if necessary), the party that was wronged is obligated to forgive.

In Pirkei Avot (1:8),it is written:
…Judah the son of Tabbai would say: When sitting in judgement, do not act as a counselor-at-law. When the litigants stand before you, consider them both guilty; and when they leave your courtroom, having accepted the judgement, regard them as equally righteous.
Once judgement is rendered and the party in the wrong makes proper restitution, the slate is clean.

If we Christians have time to forgive, we are to forgive, even before we go to battle.

1. This would endanger your troops.
2. Can you give some examples of Christians forgiving enemies before going into battle in the past 1000 years? I would be interested in hearing more about that and what tangible effect it had in battle. Did they refrain from taking the offensive? From killing?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Mark 11:24-25

New International Version (NIV)

24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

I think this is quite clear, Ridgerunner. If you do not hold anything against anyone, then there is no call to forgive, so if you do not hold anything against Arafat or anyone else, then there is no obligation.

The guide to use is not direct harm against us. If someone hurts someone we care about, and we “hold it against them”, we are to forgive. If someone even hurts someone we don;t care about, and yet we still “hold it against them” then we are to forgive.

We are to listen to our hearts. Can you not see that such forgiveness truly brings forth what we call “The Kingdom of God”? For every one person who is wronged, there are many who empathize and condemn the person who does the evil. When a Palestinian goes and blows himself up in a bus full of Israelis, are we not all angry and resentful? One bomb leads to billions of people feeling condemnation toward the assailant. The answer: No, we are not all angry and resentful. Those of us who hold something against the Israelis may think that the Israelis deserved it. Resentment blinds us.

Luke 6:36-37

New Living Translation (NLT)

36 You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate.
37 “Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn others, or it will all come back against you. Forgive others, and you will be forgiven.

The question is not whether we are to forgive. The question is how we are to forgive, do you agree?

I hold nothing aganst Arafat. He’s dead. In any event, he never harmed me in any way.
But I am not obliged to pretend that much of his life was contemptible. Nor am I obliged to pretend that his acts were anything other than what they were.

We cannot judge the soul of another. To do that would be to attempt to usurp power that belongs to God alone. But we can, and must, judge the acts we see or otherwise know about, and their consequences.

 

[OneSheep]

You asked about forgiveness. Repentence is the sine qua non to forgiveness.

We obviously have a difference in doctrine.

That would also mean that G-d holds onto hatred and resentment because He isn’t in control too. Again:

Here is a difference between our personal views of G-d. The Father I pray to does not feel hatred or resentment toward anyone. He forgives immediately.

One must strive to leave sin behind and become a better person. G-d demands that.

Agreed. In Christianity, though, “being a better person” includes that we forgive everyone whom we hold anything against. Again, we have doctrinal differences. I like ours better, but I understand and accept your point of view and your doctrinal differences. It is human to demand repentance.

After the party in the wrong repents (and makes restitution if necessary), the party that was wronged is obligated to forgive.

Catholics are also “obligated to forgive”, but our obligation has no precondition. Either way, I find the word “obligation” somewhat counter-productive. It’s like forcing someone to love someone else. It is quite human to resist any “obligation” to forgive. I like promoting the idea that forgiveness is good for your own well-being, as Fred Luskin also writes.

I encourage Catholics who hold something against Israelis to forgive them. We could argue that the Israelis have done nothing wrong, that there is nothing to forgive, but those arguments, as you know, go on forever. We each have our own rulebook, and each of us has different criteria. Isn’t it better just to make the blanket statement, “if you hold something against someone, forgive”? That way, each of us comes to be at peace with everyone. Jesus is an idealist. Of course, again, this does not mean that we are to stop from protecting ourselves.

1. This would endanger your troops.
2. Can you give some examples of Christians forgiving enemies before going into battle in the past 1000 years? I would be interested in hearing more about that and what tangible effect it had in battle. Did they refrain from taking the offensive? From killing?

It would not necessarily endanger our troops. However, it would avert a lot of offense and aggressive moves by people. For example, you would have to agree that a lot of progress would be made if Palestinians who hate Israelis would take the time and effort to forgive. If Palestinians loved and forgave their enemies, then we would see more peaceful demonstrations and no bombings, not that the Palestinians do not already do many peaceful demonstrations.

I would also be interested in the tangible effects on battle. If the battle is truly a defensive one, forgiving the enemy may have little effect on the killing. Perhaps people would make more effort toward non-lethal use of weaponry. I don’t know, I never spent any time in the military.

But your observation on Christian lack of dedication to forgiveness is accurate, as I believe I have told you in the past. We’re all a work in progress.

 

[YKohen]

We obviously have a difference in doctrine.

Evidently so.

Here is a difference between our personal views of G-d. The Father I pray to does not feel hatred or resentment toward anyone. He forgives immediately.

Then there is no right or wrong, no just reward or punishment, no ramifications for one’s actions. One can sin one’s entire life with no fear. De facto, there would be no difference between Hitler and Mother Theresa. How can that possibly be?

… It is human to demand repentance.

It is G-d who demands repentence as well. The Bible is replete with explicit statements to that effect.

Catholics are also “obligated to forgive”, but our obligation has no precondition. Either way, I find the word “obligation” somewhat counter-productive. It’s like forcing someone to love someone else. It is quite human to resist any “obligation” to forgive. I like promoting the idea that forgiveness is good for your own well-being, as Fred Luskin also writes.

Of course there is an obligation. Otherwise, it would be a case of bearing a grudge, which is also forbidden.

It would not necessarily endanger our troops. However, it would avert a lot of offense and aggressive moves by people.

It would endanger troops. At the moment when it’s either you or them, you might hesitate, and in the heat of battle, that is the difference between life and death.

I would also be interested in the tangible effects on battle. If the battle is truly a defensive one, forgiving the enemy may have little effect on the killing. Perhaps people would make more effort toward non-lethal use of weaponry. I don’t know, I never spent any time in the military.

According to you, that is the Christian way. That being the case, I would like to know if Christians, including fighting on behalf of the Church and the Pope, ever actually did that. I myself am not aware of any such cases, but am always open to learn.

 

[OneSheep]

I hold nothing aganst Arafat. He’s dead. In any event, he never harmed me in any way.
But I am not obliged to pretend that much of his life was contemptible. Nor am I obliged to pretend that his acts were anything other than what they were.

We cannot judge the soul of another. To do that would be to attempt to usurp power that belongs to God alone. But we can, and must, judge the acts we see or otherwise know about, and their consequences.

It sounds like we are agreeing on when we are to forgive.

So, next, I have a little request to make. Please try to help me focus discussion on forgiveness. Much of what people communicate sounds like blame and condemnation, and this goes nowhere, it only makes matters worse. The fact is, regardless of what people have done and who has done it, if we feel any resentment, if we hold anything against anyone, we are to forgive. So please, stop saying “this is the fault of __________” and start saying “here is how we can forgive them” and “here is how the situation can be resolved in a way that considers the needs of both sides”.

You are saying that you hold nothing against anyone involved, but many Catholics do. Please help me to encourage people to forgive. If the U.N. takes on the stance that “It’s all Israel’s fault” then it is time to forgive the U.N. and encourage them to forgive. We are all responsible for the lack of forgiveness occurring. This is the “light” that we have to shine on the world, not perpetual blame and condemnation.

You do not have to abide by my request. It is an invitation to be a peacemaker. Saying “no” is okay. Not responding at this time is okay too.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It sounds like we are agreeing on when we are to forgive.

So, next, I have a little request to make. Please try to help me focus discussion on forgiveness. Much of what people communicate sounds like blame and condemnation, and this goes nowhere, it only makes matters worse. The fact is, regardless of what people have done and who has done it, if we feel any resentment, if we hold anything against anyone, we are to forgive. So please, stop saying “this is the fault of __________” and start saying “here is how we can forgive them” and “here is how the situation can be resolved in a way that considers the needs of both sides”.

You are saying that you hold nothing against anyone involved, but many Catholics do. Please help me to encourage people to forgive. If the U.N. takes on the stance that “It’s all Israel’s fault” then it is time to forgive the U.N. and encourage them to forgive. We are all responsible for the lack of forgiveness occurring. This is the “light” that we have to shine on the world, not perpetual blame and condemnation.

You do not have to abide by my request. It is an invitation to be a peacemaker. Saying “no” is okay. Not responding at this time is okay too.

I do not equate forgiveness with failing to ascribe responsibility.

Are you actually saying that if someone hits me on the head, and I forgive him for doing it, that I cannot thereafter say he is to blame for hitting me on the head? I have to deny causation? More, I cannot condemn the act of one person hitting another on the head? I must not judge the objective rightness or wrongness of an act?

Surely you aren’t.

In the case of the UN, it is immaterial whether I forgive the UN or not. It has done nothing to me. But if I see that its judgments vis a vis Israel are not only unfair but harmful, I am not obliged to somehow “forgive” it as if it was a human being. It’s only a human institution that is acting wrongfully. To what little extent I, as an ordinary voter, have the slightest effect on the UN, I am not in any manner obliged to forget that it has done wrong. On thecontrary, I am obliged to remember a pattern of wrongfulness and, with my vote, (for instance) support those who would politically act to prevent it from doing so in the future.

 

[estesbob]

I do not equate forgiveness with failing to ascribe responsibility.

Are you actually saying that if someone hits me on the head, and I forgive him for doing it, that I cannot thereafter say he is to blame for hitting me on the head? I have to deny causation? More, I cannot condemn the act of one person hitting another on the head? I must not judge the objective rightness or wrongness of an act?

Surely you aren’t.

In the case of the UN, it is immaterial whether I forgive the UN or not. It has done nothing to me. But if I see that its judgments vis a vis Israel are not only unfair but harmful, I am not obliged to somehow “forgive” it as if it was a human being. It’s only a human institution that is acting wrongfully. To what little extent I, as an ordinary voter, have the slightest effect on the UN, I am not in any manner obliged to forget that it has done wrong. On thecontrary, I am obliged to remember a pattern of wrongfulness and, with my vote, (for instance) support those who would politically act to prevent it from doing so in the future.

Again forgiveness has nothing to do with whether Israeli settlements are legal or whether the UN has the right to declare them illegal.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Again forgiveness has nothing to do with whether Israeli settlements are legal or whether the UN has the right to declare them illegal.

True enough.