UN staff killed in Afghan protest over Quran burning in US

[Darryl1958]

Thank you for posting this.
Now WHY would Karzai do such a thing?

Do the people who are blaming the US pastor also believe that Karzai and the mullahs bear some responsibility?

Often politicians in this region do these things in order to deflect attraction from their own sorry ecord of governance. That is the role that Israel plays too. When the people are angry because of bad governance, give them a whipping boy to blame.

 

[gilliam]

Petraeus Warns Quran Burning Endangers War Effort…
Pastor vows to put Mohammed ‘on trial’ next!
Protests Rage In Afghanistan…
Policeman kills two U.S. soldiers…

 

[Darryl1958]

First time I’ve heard about this.

What I find peculiar:

They persecute Christians on a regular basis. They force Islam on everyone in their country.

Some random pastor burns a Koran and theres huge riots, leading to UN members being killed.

As if the UN workers had anything whatsoever to do with it in the first place.

The analogy of rape victims wearing provocative clothes was made here. But this is like random women being raped just because one woman three thousand miles away went bra-less one day.

 

[latin_rite]

No doubt this pastor will say free speech at any cost. Pity it isn’t he who pays the price.
Ten people to date are dead due to his actions. I should say ten people were murdered due to his actions. I hope he makes himself right with God

 

[gilliam]

As if the UN workers had anything whatsoever to do with it in the first place.

The UN workers were in the town to help the people, but they may be a threat to those in the town who feel that the West would influence the morals of the town. The crowd was incited by Muslim preachers to proceed to the UN building. After they got there it seems there were those in the crowd who encouraged the violence.

Same thing is happening in other Afgan towns and cities. Those in Afganistan doing this see this as a holy war. Part of jihad against the infidels.

It has everything to do with religion.

Some pastor in Florida or Denmark or anywhere else who decides to deface a Koran is not a reason for people to murder folks who are trying to help them. The fault is not on the pastor, it is on the murderers.

 

[Darryl1958]

The UN workers were in the town to help the people, but they may be a threat to those in the town who feel that the West would influence the morals of the town. The crowd was incited by Muslim preachers to proceed to the UN building. After they got there it seems there were those in the crowd who encouraged the violence.

Same thing is happening in other Afgan towns and cities. Those in Afganistan doing this see this as a holy war. Part of jihad against the infidels.

It has everything to do with religion.

Some pastor in Florida or Denmark or anywhere else who decides to deface a Koran is not a reason for people to murder folks who are trying to help them. The falt is not on the pastor, it is on the murderers.

In terms of sin, what the religious leaders are doing is the ultimate blasphemy against God—inciting mayhem and murder in the name of Allah. In the Judeo-christian tradition at least, this is what the plain text of using the Lord’s name in vain would be telling us.

As far as whether this would be spoken against in Islam, clearly when it comes to modern *Islamist *belief and teaching, it is not spoken out against but proclaimed from the mosques and mountains as holiness. If the Muslim presidents and preachers of the land are proclaiming this as the holy response, it is hard to not say that this is the real face of the ‘religon of peace’. It is the moderate Muslims then who are on the outside looking in.

 

[gilliam]

In terms of sin, what the religious leaders are doing is the ultimate blasphemy against God—inciting mayhem and murder in the name of Allah. In the Judeo-christian tradition at least, this is what the plain yext of using the Lord’s name in vain would be telling us.

That isn’t the way they see it, and the can quote a number of areas in the Koran to support their views.

As far as whether this would be spoken against in Islam, clearly when it comes to modern *Islamist *belief and teaching, it is not spoken out against but proclaimed from the mosques and mountains as holiness. If the Muslim presidents and preachers of the land are proclaiming this as the holy response, it is hard to not say that this is the real face of the ‘religon of peace’. It is the moderate Muslims then who are on the outside looking in.

This is the current trend for Islam in many countries. In Afganistan, it has been this way since the 80s. I don’t think they really care if infidels think Islam is a religion of peace or not.

 

[Cristiano]

…Some pastor in Florida or Denmark or anywhere else who decides to deface a Koran is not a reason for people to murder folks who are trying to help them. The fault is not on the pastor, it is on the murderers.

Until now I have argued with an Atheist asking him to prove to me that the pastor does bears responsibility for those deaths. The proof that I was asking was a logical construct that started with the burning of the Koran and ended with the death of those innocents. I would not and cannot accept a religious argument from an atheist because it would be self contradictory.

However, in my discussion with a Catholic I have to say that the guilt of the killings is a consequence of the pastor’s guilt. If we look at our theology of sin we can see how each individual sin affects the rest of the creation, and sin builds on itself and propagates in uncontrollable ways. This is one of the reasons why we go to confession instead just apologizing to God in private. The guilt of the killing will rest with each one of us because through direct sins or sins of omission we foster a culture of hate, violence, and death.

 

[gilliam]

Until now I have argued with an Atheist asking him to prove to me that the pastor does bears responsibility for those deaths. The proof that I was asking was a logical construct that started with the burning of the Koran and ended with the death of those innocents. I would not and cannot accept a religious argument from an atheist because it would be self contradictory.

However, in my discussion with a Catholic I have to say that the guilt of the killings is a consequence of the pastor’s guilt. If we look at our theology of sin we can see how each individual sin affects the rest of the creation, and sin builds on itself and propagates in uncontrollable ways. This is one of the reasons why we go to confession instead just apologizing to God in private. The guilt of the killing will rest with each one of us because through direct sins or sins of omission we foster a culture of hate, violence, and death.

With that logic you could say that a husband who cheats on his wife in St. Luis, MO is also to blame for the murders in Afghanistan. However, the real fault for the murders in Afghanistan sits on the shoulders of those who committed the murders and those who encouraged them to commit the murders. Trying to throw blame on the Florida pastor is an attempt to exonerate those who committed the murders. It also deministhes them and makes them less than human. They are human, they have free will. They choise poorly and they sinned.

It is like asking “why do they hate us” when talking about 9/11. 9/11 was an act of war perpetrated on the USA in an attempt to take down the Great Satan in a larger war to establish an Islamic Caliphate from Spain to China. Remember the original targets included: The White House (which they couldn’t find) and the Capital Building with Congress in session (the plane that went down in PA). You just have to read al-Qaeda’s proclamations (or if you want an easier read, read The Looming Tower) and find out the history behind all this.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

With that logic you could say that a husband who cheats on his wife in St. Luis, MO is also to blame for the murders in Afghanistan. However, the real fault for the murders in Afghanistan sits on the shoulders of those who committed the murders and those who encouraged them to commit the murders. Trying to throw blame on the Florida pastor is an attempt to exonerate those who committed the murders. It also deministhes them and makes them less than human. They are human, they have free will. They choise poorly and they sinned.

I’m sorry, but that logic seems flawed. Do we alleviate the guilt of those who pass pro-abortion legislation and lay the guilt on those who receive abortions? Those people also have ‘free will’, they choose poorly and they sin.
Do we alleviate guilt from those who vote for certain candidates in US elections because that candidate might be a pro-abortion candidate? No. We, as Catholics hold all involved accountable, even those who vote for and pass the legislation.
Yes, there is a Muslim element that is fanatical and violent. The pastor knew this. Below is an excerpt from one of the articles you posted a link to.

Mr Jones admitted that he knew the Koran-burning stunt could lead to violence, adding: ‘We were worried. We knew it was possible.’

Read more: dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1372827/Terry-Jones-Mohammed-trial-Koran-burning-sparks-2nd-day-violence.html#ixzz1IZ1OlzH2

If one does an action knowing there was a possibility of violence, how is it he cannot be accountable for that action?

 

[iamrefreshed]

I surprised anyone here blames the pastor.

In fact, I’m incensed.

I insist that all those who blame the pastor renounce their statements or I will not be held responsible for my actions. If I get violent it will be their fault!

 

[Santi2]

The UN workers were in the town to help the people, but they may be a threat to those in the town who feel that the West would influence the morals of the town. The crowd was incited by Muslim preachers to proceed to the UN building. After they got there it seems there were those in the crowd who encouraged the violence.

Same thing is happening in other Afgan towns and cities. Those in Afganistan doing this see this as a holy war. Part of jihad against the infidels.

It has everything to do with religion.

Some pastor in Florida or Denmark or anywhere else who decides to deface a Koran is not a reason for people to murder folks who are trying to help them. The fault is not on the pastor, it is on the murderers.

I don’t know, Gilliam. I am having a having a hard time severing the causal link. The pastor knew his conduct would set a flow of events and the natural consequences of his act. In one of your links, he even contemplates on further provocation.

 

[Michael_C]

Religious book burning should probably be as protected as flag burning. It’s through this pastor’s actions 8 people are dead. Why are you promoting this man’s right to incite hatred against readers of the Koran?

I would disagree. I think the deaths are more the responsibilty of the murderer and the UN for failing to protect them.

 

[Michael_C]

I surprised anyone here blames the pastor.

In fact, I’m incensed.

I insist that all those who blame the pastor renounce their statements or I will not be held responsible for my actions. If I get violent it will be their fault!

I don’t understand why the posters provoke you. They should abstain from posting on this subject as they now know you will respond violently.

 

[Cristiano]

I surprised anyone here blames the pastor.

In fact, I’m incensed.

I insist that all those who blame the pastor renounce their statements or I will not be held responsible for my actions. If I get violent it will be their fault!

Are you saying that the pastor did not wrong? A lot of people here, including myself, blame the pastor for his actions. He was sinful because he tried to anger people. That does not take away any culpability from the people that committed the murderers. Catholics should stop thinking of morality in secular terms but the should start thinking of the real damage that sin creates. If we were to follow the secular logic like some Catholics in this forum, we would start to disregard the theology of sin, we would say that there is not original sin and we would turn into a bunch of Pelagians.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

As if the UN workers had anything whatsoever to do with it in the first place.

The analogy of rape victims wearing provocative clothes was made here. But this is like random women being raped just because one woman three thousand miles away went bra-less one day.

That is exactly the right analogy. Susy Q goes braless and gets blamed for 11 random women half way around the world being raped because a bunch of “peaceful” men see a picture of it.

 

[Michael_C]

Are you saying that the pastor did not wrong? A lot of people here, including myself, blame the pastor for his actions. He was sinful because he tried to anger people. That does not take away any culpability from the people that committed the murderers. Catholics should stop thinking of morality in secular terms but the should start thinking of the real damage that sin creates. If we were to follow the secular logic like some Catholics in this forum, we would start to disregard the theology of sin, we would say that there is not original sin and we would turn into a bunch of Pelagians.

If I use your logic then in fact the pastor is very low on my list. We can start with the Presidents past and present, the senate, congress and work our way down to the pastor.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Are you saying that the pastor did not wrong? A lot of people here, including myself, blame the pastor for his actions. He was sinful because he tried to anger people. That does not take away any culpability from the people that committed the murderers. Catholics should stop thinking of morality in secular terms but the should start thinking of the real damage that sin creates. If we were to follow the secular logic like some Catholics in this forum, we would start to disregard the theology of sin, we would say that there is not original sin and we would turn into a bunch of Pelagians.

I’m not sure anyone is talking about sin here. I thought we were talking about blame for violence?

Now, do I need to drown a puppy or am I gonna see some retractions?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

That is exactly the right analogy. Susy Q goes braless and gets blamed for 11 random women half way around the world being raped because a bunch of “peaceful” men see a picture of it.

It would be a correct analogy IF the braless woman knew there was a possibility of retaliation against other women half way around the world. But that is not the case. We have immodest women, displayed in almost every media, yet I don’t know of any violent group that would respond with violence over it. The pastor knew his actions could result in violence, from a fanatical group inclined to kill over their religious beliefs, yet he did it anyway and seems to be planning his next move to offend those people.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I came very close to intentionally running over a squirrel with my truck this morning because someone here posted something that I didn’t like.