UN staff killed in Afghan protest over Quran burning in US

[Scott_Lafrance]

They were burning churches and murdering Christians long before Pastor Jones was even born. They would have found another excuse to go on their murderous rampage even if he hadn’t burned a koran.

All it took was the accusation that someone desecrated the book in Ethiopia to trigger rioting, and burning on a huge scale. No one had done anything against them or their precious book. They burned, looted and murdered on the basis of a rumour.

Their actions amount to coercion, requiring that we modify our behaviour, lest we ‘provoke’ them. Every time we modify our behaviour (in our own lands I might add) in response to their violence, we have succumbed to blackmail and we accept their boots upon our necks, their yoke on our backs.

I speak from experience. I was in Saudi Arabia in 1967 during the June War. The arabs we had thought were our friends rose up against us and attacked us because of what someone else was doing to muslims in another country. At least we were able to keep them out of the camp and keep them from killing us. I had always wondered why we had barbed wire at the top of the 12 foot fence surrounding the camp and armed soldiers on the gates.

Don’t bend the knee and accept dhimmitude. As a lifestyle, it is the pits.

I guess the Crusaders were all wrong then when they went to the Holy Land to defend their brother and sister Christians from the maurading Muslims. What are we doing now to defend our brothers and sisters from this evil? Just praying?

Sometimes, we have to be the angry Jesus who wove a scourge out of cords and drove the money lenders out of the temple. Sometimes we need to stand up for our fellow Christians and defend them and us from this assault. Don’t wait until they are slitting our throats or hacking our heads off to finally stand up to this injustice, blackmail, coercion and plain murder.

Thank you.

 

[iamrefreshed]

One took it beyond comments. Similar to arguments made against the Eucharist; speaking against it is one thing, desecrating it is another.

I admit, the better artist comment made me grin.

You’ve obviously never see Submission.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Jharek,

There is responsibility for all involved, the provoker and those who allowed themselves to be provoked to such a degree. I find it a shame that ‘foolish and misguided’ actions, warned about in advance, took place anyway and cost innocent people their lives. Please don’t think my statements are an attempt to exonerate any involved. I’m somewhat taken aback by those who can see no error on the part of the pastor.

What I am interested in seeing is, what do those who defend the pastor’s actions think we should do about the situation as it stands? I’m almost afraid to ask the question as there appears to be a 'kill ‘em all and let God sort it out’ type attitude being displayed against all people of the Islamic faith.

 

[mdrummer5]

All it took was the accusation that someone desecrated the book in Ethiopia to trigger rioting, and burning on a huge scale. No one had done anything against them or their precious book. They burned, looted and murdered on the basis of a rumour.

All the more reason Mr. Jones should’ve known better.

Again, I’m not saying it’s right but it’s clear that the reaction was beyond predictable… If I were a betting man I’d have bet my annual salary that something like this would’ve happened… as I’m sure anyone would have if there’s a more sure bet on anything I’m at a loss for what it would be.

 

[iamrefreshed]

One took it beyond comments. Similar to arguments made against the Eucharist; speaking against it is one thing, desecrating it is another.

So Eucharist desecraters would share blame in any violence that resulted due to the desecration?

 

[SwizzleStick]

They were burning churches and murdering Christians long before Pastor Jones was even born. They would have found another excuse to go on their murderous rampage even if he hadn’t burned a koran.

All it took was the accusation that someone desecrated the book in Ethiopia to trigger rioting, and burning on a huge scale. No one had done anything against them or their precious book. They burned, looted and murdered on the basis of a rumour.

Their actions amount to coercion, requiring that we modify our behaviour, lest we ‘provoke’ them. Every time we modify our behaviour (in our own lands I might add) in response to their violence, we have succumbed to blackmail and we accept their boots upon our necks, their yoke on our backs.

I speak from experience. I was in Saudi Arabia in 1967 during the June War. The arabs we had thought were our friends rose up against us and attacked us because of what someone else was doing to muslims in another country. At least we were able to keep them out of the camp and keep them from killing us. I had always wondered why we had barbed wire at the top of the 12 foot fence surrounding the camp and armed soldiers on the gates. …

Thank you for adding your voice of experience to this thread. Makes me think “Can you hear me now?”

 

[mdrummer5]

What I am interested in seeing is, what do those who defend the pastor’s actions think we should do about the situation as it stands? I’m almost afraid to ask the question as there appears to be a 'kill ‘em all and let God sort it out’ type attitude being displayed against all people of the Islamic faith.

I’m also curious about this… but I’m more interested in our Muslim members coming forth to explain that these actions are not indicative of their beliefs I don’t at all believe they are but I’m not educated enough on their faith to defend it.

 

[iamrefreshed]

What I am interested in seeing is, what do those who defend the pastor’s actions think we should do about the situation as it stands? I’m almost afraid to ask the question as there appears to be a 'kill ‘em all and let God sort it out’ type attitude being displayed against all people of the Islamic faith.

Us who? Americans? We should do nothing. We have free speech and I for one want to keep it that way.

 

[jilly4ski]

One took it beyond comments. Similar to arguments made against the Eucharist; speaking against it is one thing, desecrating it is another.

I admit, the better artist comment made me grin.

I think you are confused about what Islam actually teaches. Speaking against Mohammad, or the Koran is blasphemy, which carries the same punishment as desecration of the holy book or making a depiction of the prophet. Death. The ironic thing, is that they think they can apply Sharia law to people in countries who are not under Sharia law, and if they cannot carry it out against the actual person, then doing it by proxy is fine.

The reason I cannot blame the pastor for the deaths of the UN workers, is because the causal link is too tenuous. If the religious and political leaders and Imams had not incited a riot, the video would have been seen by a few and there would have been some grumblings and eye rolling, but no violence (at least about this). There had to be the intermediary to organize and incite the people. There were not riots all over the Muslim world or in the US, that means there was something particular in this place that could not be predicted. Therefore the causal link to the pastor is too far. Now should he feel guilty? Yes. Should he be ostracized from any decent society? Yes. Should the media stop giving him the time of day? Yes. But that is different from saying he caused the deaths of the UN workers, many of whom are probably not even Christian.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I think you are confused about what Islam actually teaches. Speaking against Mohammad, or the Koran is blasphemy, which carries the same punishment as desecration of the holy book or making a depiction of the prophet. Death. The ironic thing, is that they think they can apply Sharia law to people in countries who are not under Sharia law, and if they cannot carry it out against the actual person, then doing it by proxy is fine.

Similar to people trying to apply ‘freedom of speech’ to other countries and cultures?

The reason I cannot blame the pastor for the deaths of the UN workers, is because the causal link is too tenuous. If the religious and political leaders and Imams had not incited a riot, the video would have been seen by a few and there would have been some grumblings and eye rolling, but no violence (at least about this). There had to be the intermediary to organize and incite the people. There were not riots all over the Muslim world or in the US, that means there was something particular in this place that could not be predicted. Therefore the causal link to the pastor is too far. Now should he feel guilty? Yes. Should he be ostracized from any decent society? Yes. Should the media stop giving him the time of day? Yes. But that is different from saying he caused the deaths of the UN workers, many of whom are probably not even Christian.

The religious and political leaders would not have had as much power to incite without the ammunition supplied by the pastor. An intermediary acts as an agent on the actions of others.

What difference does the theological beliefs of those killed have to do with any of this? They were innocents and if they were not Christian, do they have anymore opportunities to become one now?

The pastor admitted to knowing there was a possibility of violence, in response to his actions. Violence from those well known to hold little value to human life, yet he did it anyway.

There are many who play a part in this scenario, the religious leaders, the media, etc. etc. None of which could have acted on this particular subject without the original actions of the pastor.

 

[Linda_Marie]

All the more reason Mr. Jones should’ve known better.

Again, I’m not saying it’s right but it’s clear that the reaction was beyond predictable… If I were a betting man I’d have bet my annual salary that something like this would’ve happened… as I’m sure anyone would have if there’s a more sure bet on anything I’m at a loss for what it would be.

That sounds like an abused wife saying she shouldn’t have been a minute late getting dinner on the table. She should have known he’d beat her for it. It is her fault. She provoked him.

 

[master_catholic]

Good for him! We need thousands more like him.

If there were Koran burnings on a regular and frequent basis, the act would lose it’s novelty and shock value. Muslims would eventually become desensitized to it, and react to it like the rest of the world ~ “what an idiot”, then move on with their lives.

More like an eventual pretext for the great Jihad and unify the world to Islam by the sword.
Keep fanning the flames and before you know it - the forest is on fire.

I wonder how much Jones did this knowing the killings and the attention he’d get from the liberal media by doing this. “snicker - watch me push some buttons!”

 

[mdrummer5]

That sounds like an abused wife saying she shouldn’t have been a minute late getting dinner on the table. She should have known he’d beat her for it. It is her fault. She provoked him.

Not at all the same thing… in that case it is not her fault he hits her but it is her fault that she’s in harms way because she stays with him but that’s an entirely different topic.

Rather than a rebuttal let’s just ask a very simple question.

For the sake of argument let’s say there’s nothing else that would deter you except knowing the kind of reaction that this would cause… would YOU then have burned the Koran?

 

[estesbob]

For the sake of argument let’s say there’s nothing else that would deter you except knowing the kind of reaction that this would cause… would YOU then have burned the Koran?

No But I also have to admit that if I lived in Afghanistan I would not run around killing people because some Kook in Florida burned the Koran, The people most responsible for these deaths are the Mullahs who took an isolated incident from halfway around the world and used it to inflame their flock…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

More like an eventual pretext for the great Jihad and unify the world to Islam by the sword.
Keep fanning the flames and before you know it - the forest is on fire.

I wonder how much Jones did this knowing the killings and the attention he’d get from the liberal media by doing this. “snicker - watch me push some buttons!”

He has mentioned putting Mohammed on trial since this has happened…

 

[mdrummer5]

No But I also have to admit that if I lived in Afghanistan I would not run around killing people because some Kook in Florida burned the Koran, The people most responsible for these deaths are the Mullahs who took an isolated incident from halfway around the world and used it to inflame their flock…

Oh I agree wholeheartedly… however, there is no denying that he is partially responsible. Nobody’s arguing that he is solely or even mostly responsible just that he did knowingly play part in it.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No But I also have to admit that if I lived in Afghanistan I would not run around killing people because some Kook in Florida burned the Koran, The people most responsible for these deaths are the Mullahs who took an isolated incident from halfway around the world and used it to inflame their flock…

I’m sure there were people living in Afghanistan who did not run around and join in the killing of people. Let’s not forget the people that controlled the country with fear prior to the US action in search of Osama.

There is enough responsibility to pass around on this particular incident, starting with the actions of the pastor who gave ammunition to the Mullahs.

 

[SamH]

Not at all the same thing…

Agreed, because instead of the husband hitting his wife, a man he doesn’t know kills several hospital workers.

 

[estesbob]

I’m sure there were people living in Afghanistan who did not run around and join in the killing of people. Let’s not forget the people that controlled the country with fear prior to the US action in search of Osama.

There is enough responsibility to pass around on this particular incident, starting with the actions of the pastor who gave ammunition to the Mullahs.

If you want to blame the pastor go right ahead. And I will continue to blame the mullahs and the people that actually did the killing.What I don’t want to see happen is for us to allow their barbarity to influence our laws and restrict our freedoms.

 

[Linda_Marie]

Oh I agree wholeheartedly… however, there is no denying that he is partially responsible. Nobody’s arguing that he is solely or even mostly responsible just that he did knowingly play part in it.

The thing is, they have been doing this before Pastor Jones was even a glimmer in his father’s eye. They don’t need an excuse. They will riot, murder and burn whether Jones burned the book or not. It doesn’t matter what Jones did or didn’t do, they would have rioted, using something, someone else as an excuse. He is not even partially responsible.

My point with the Ethiopian riots was that no one did anything but they rioted, burned churches and drove 10,000 people from their homes.

As another poster pointed out, it was probably an English translation that Jones burned at that and thus not their holy book. Won’t they feel ashamed when they find that out?

To make my analogy about the abused wife a little closer to this situation: She didn’t get dinner on the table because she had left him, so he beat the next woman who came down the street instead. She knew he would react that way. It is her fault that he beat that other woman. She should share some of the responsibility for her injuries. She shouldn’t have left him and provoked him into hurting an innocent third party like that.