UN staff killed in Afghan protest over Quran burning in US

[iamrefreshed]

Indeed he is, He was going to work in the morning and met an Islamist who wanted to kill him.
Interestingly the last thing Theo Van Gogh yelled as a good Dutchman was: “Can’t we talk about it”. Then he was stabbed to death for working together with an infidel/fallen away Muslim, with whom he made the movie about supression of women in Islam.

In my country half of the Muslim population ( second and third generation immigrants) say that they believe criticism of Islam and the prophet should be illegal.
Already artists and thinkers all over Europe are scared shitless to critizise anything about Islam because they fear violence or death.

Very thought provoking. People here seems to think islam is like another kind of Christianity, or a small heresy. Its not so. I URGE you as Catholics to study into what it really teaches.

Grace! Soap for you!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Indeed. Thank you for this post.
I am starting to feel like my brothers and sisters have lost all sense of proportion and its very frustrating.

WWJD?

 

[pnewton]

Indeed. Thank you for this post.
I am starting to feel like my brothers and sisters have lost all sense of proportion and its very frustrating.

I think we are talking past each other a lot. Some one said they were surprised that anyone is supporting the pastor, when no one has. I bet not one person here would ever burn a Koran or support one who would. On the other hand, those that are condemning of the pastor really aren’t exusing the murderers. In the long run, the only real disagreement here, other than a matter of degree, is over the issue of free speech, or free expression. On that, there is geniune disagreement.

 

[iamrefreshed]

This is a fair point.

But do you honestly think that he didn’t have reason to believe that his actions would result in violence?

What I believe is not relevant or important.

This man is broke, has been threatened with death, shunned by his community and ostracized by the world.

You think he wanted that? Maybe he believes in what he is doing?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I think we are talking past each other a lot. Some one said they were surprised that anyone is supporting the pastor, when no one has. I bet not one person here would ever burn a Koran or support one who would. On the other hand, those that are condemning of the pastor really aren’t exusing the murderers. In the long run, the only real disagreement here, other than a matter of degree, is over the issue of free speech, or free expression. On that, there is geniune disagreement.

No matter what the law is, Christians have a responsibility to avoid actions that can bring harm to others. I would feel the same if the pastor had yelled fire in a crowded theater and caused injury. The biggest difference is the number of lives potentially affected by his actions over being in the most crowded theater.

People have brought up the Christian persecutions by Muslims. Will the action by the pastor cause those instances to possibly increase or decrease?

 

[GraceDK]

I think we are talking past each other a lot. Some one said they were surprised that anyone is supporting the pastor, when no one has. I bet not one person here would ever burn a Koran or support one who would. On the other hand, those that are condemning of the pastor really aren’t exusing the murderers. In the long run, the only real disagreement here, other than a matter of degree, is over the issue of free speech, or free expression. On that, there is geniune disagreement.

Its precisely problematic to put condemnation of the pastor’s action and that of the Islamists in the same sentence or even on the same page.
People are infinitely more important to God than books… and especially false revelations

What happens to people who are in a coma of igorance about Islam, influenced by oil money or babbling leftist nonsense is that they all condemn the pastor because of the violence that followed his action.

The violent acts however must be said clearly to be the sole responsibility of the sick people who comitted them precisely in the name of the god and the book which the pastor critizised through his action.

 

[mdrummer5]

What I believe is not relevant or important.

This man is broke, has been threatened with death, shunned by his community and ostracized by the world.

You think he wanted that? Maybe he believes in what he is doing?

I’m sure that’s not what he wanted and I’m sure that he does believe in what he is doing. That doesn’t change the fact that he was well aware that his actions might lead to violence, again that’s why he was asked not to do it previously which he agreed to at one point. As a man of God that knowledge should have stopped him.

 

[GraceDK]

No matter what the law is, Christians have a responsibility to avoid actions that can bring harm to others. I would feel the same if the pastor had yelled fire in a crowded theater and caused injury. The biggest difference is the number of lives potentially affected by his actions over being in the most crowded theater.

People have brought up the Christian persecutions by Muslims. Will the action by the pastor cause those instances to possibly increase or decrease?

I lived in Denmark during the cartoon crisis.

It came to the attention of a news paper that journalists were afraid of critizising Islam.

One news paper said: this cannot be so… can someone draw a cartoon of the prophet Muhammad. (it was inspired by the satire cartoons that were made of the pope in the Middle ages by Luther when the Pope was very corrupted, had concubines etc).

So some drawings were made… one of Muhammad with a bomb in his turban.
No reaction. After some months some Muslims who lived among us went to the middle east with the drawings (plus a few really horrible ones that they made themselves) and stirred the media and mullahs down there and what followed was mass demonstrations, stepping on the Danish flag (with cross in it) violence against Christians, at least one Catholic priest was shot by an angry demonstrator. Boycott of Danish products.

What happend in Denmark at this time was that the ones who were at first against the cartoons (I included) became pro-the drawings. I felt that they told exactly the truth: that Islam is inherently dangerous, backward and violent and must be provoked like a snake that is teased so that it comes out of its hole so people can see its uglyness.

My studies in the texts of Islam has only confirmed to me that its a huge ideological tyranny and that the West closes its eyes to its own detriment.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Its precisely problematic to put condemnation of the pastor’s action and that of the Islamists in the same sentence or even on the same page.
People are infinitely more important to God than books… and especially false revelations

I feel like we’ve all been saying people are infinitely more important to God, but that which is infinitely more important to God was endangered by the actions of the pastor. The direct endangerment came at the hands of extremists and fanatics.

What happens to people who are in a coma of igorance about Islam, influenced by oil money or babbling leftist nonsense is that they all condemn the pastor because of the violence that followed his action.

Ad hominem?

The violent acts however must be said clearly to be the sole responsibility of the sick people who comitted them precisely in the name of the god and the book which the pastor critizised through his action.

The pastor admitted to knowing of the possibility of violence in reaction to his action and he was warned about such prior to fulfilling his plans. Yes there are violent Muslims, but in this particular instance their violence was fueled by the pastor’s action, creating more unnecessary violence towards innocent people and aiding the extremists in recruitment.

 

[GraceDK]

I’m sure that’s not what he wanted and I’m sure that he does believe in what he is doing. That doesn’t change the fact that he was well aware that his actions might lead to violence, again that’s why he was asked not to do it previously which he agreed to at one point. As a man of God that knowledge should have stopped him.

That a non-violent statement from me might lead to violent agression from the other part really proves most about the other… and about that which he tries to defend.

If I spat at a picture of Hitler I would be probably executed in Nazi Germany.
Does it mean that I was not right to spit at him?
It might not be prudent… and there might have been better ways to state my oppinion, but still the fact that Nazis executed me was the sign to all the world, not of my wrong judgement about Hitler, but about the truth that he was a tyrant and his regime was inhumane.

Wafa Sultan, a syrian lady and former Muslim who used to be not even allowed to drive a car or leave her house without her younger brother’s permission now lives in America.
She tells people that Islam is evil and that the Western world should keep provoking it again and again.
I dont think Quran burnings are right… but something indeed should be done to reveal the evil.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

My studies in the texts of Islam has only confirmed to me that its a huge ideological tyranny and that the West closes its eyes to its own detriment.

What do you suggest the West should do?

 

[mdrummer5]

What happend in Denmark at this time was that the ones who were at first against the cartoons (I included) became pro-the drawings. I felt that they told exactly the truth: that Islam is inherently dangerous, backward and violent and must be provoked like a snake that is teased so that it comes out of its hole so people can see its uglyness.

“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘you shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment”

Wouldn’t inciting anger be no better than being the angry party?

 

[GraceDK]

I feel like we’ve all been saying people are infinitely more important to God, but that which is infinitely more important to God was endangered by the actions of the pastor. The direct endangerment came at the hands of extremists and fanatics.

.

The violence was a response rooted in the religion and world view of Islam, okay?

When Christians are ridiculed we do not go and decapitate innocent people. Nor should we blame the blasphemers for their deaths if we killed them in response to their words. I sincerely hope you agree on that.

The pastor burned the Quran because he found it evil.
The Islamists killed innocent people. There is absolutely no excuse for them.

Did you know that Iran burned hundreds of Bibles last year? what if I now go and decapitate some innocent Iranian immigrants outhere for that because I am an angry Christian? Is Iran then to blame for my attrocities? Of course not… they are to be blamed for their wickedness alone , not for my much more wicked response.

 

[GraceDK]

What do you suggest the West should do?

The West? I don’t expect anything from the West. Its too confused and divided.

I do suggest that all Christians start to seriously study what Islam is about.
The devil cannot be faught with the devil. Truth must overcome the lie.

We have the Truth and so the responsibility is ours. This is about powers and principalities… not humans. God loves the Muslims, but I am sure He wishes no one to live under Taleban, Sharia or the Muslim Kalifath which many, many Muslims hope to establish first in Europe, then in America.

 

[LemonAndLime]

The West? I don’t expect anything from the West. Its too confused and divided.

I do suggest that all Christians start to seriously study what Islam is about.
The devil cannot be faught with the devil. Truth must overcome the lie.

We have the Truth and so the responsibility is ours. This is about powers and principalities… not humans. God loves the Muslims, but I am sure He wishes no one to live under Taleban, Sharia or the Muslim Kalifath which many, many Muslims hope to establish first in Europe, then in America.

Many many Muslims want Sharia or Taliban?

Which ones are these? What are your assertions based on?

 

[GraceDK]

“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘you shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment”

Wouldn’t inciting anger be no better than being the angry party?

Try to ask the decapitated UN- workers; “would you like to meet a democratic, person who is passionately angry with you, or an Islamist with a sword who thinks he is doing the will of his god by cutting your head of in five minutes”.

I think there is also a difference between anger and murder in the eyes of God…
Unhindered anger is the beginning of the inclination to kill, certainly This is why Jesus said it I think… and this is why Islam is dangerous, because Jesus as we know Him, is not there to teach that…
A friend of mine once observed when looking at the mobs demonstrating against the Pope, that they were seemingly wholly given over to their passions…

 

[GraceDK]

“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘you shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment”

Wouldn’t inciting anger be no better than being the angry party?

Try to ask those UN- workers; “would you like to meet a democratic, person who is passionately angry with you, or an Islamist with a sword who thinks he is doing the will of his god by cutting your head of in five minutes”.

I think there is also a difference between anger and murder in the eyes of God…
Unhindered anger is the beginning of the inclination to kill, certainly This is why Jesus said it I think… and this is why Islam is dangerous, because Jesus as we know Him, is not there to teach that…
A friend of mine once observed when looking at the mobs demonstrating against the Pope, that they were seemingly wholly given over to their passions…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The violence was a response rooted in the religion and world view of Islam, okay?

When Christians are ridiculed we do not go and decapitate innocent people. Nor should we blame the blasphemers for their deaths if we killed them in response to their words. I sincerely hope you agree on that.

The pastor burned the Quran because he found it evil.
The Islamists killed innocent people. There is absolutely no excuse for them.

Did you know that Iran burned hundreds of Bibles last year? what if I now go and decapitate some innocent Iranian immigrants outhere for that because I am an angry Christian? Is Iran then to blame for my attrocities? Of course not… they are to be blamed for their wickedness alone , not for my much more wicked response.

The pastor burned the Quran, because he found it evil, and without regards for innocent people that maybe endangered by those who believe the book to be sacred.

We are taught, by Christ, not to live ‘an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth’. We are taught to love our neighbor, love our enemies and do unto others, as we would have them do to us.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The West? I don’t expect anything from the West. Its too confused and divided.

I do suggest that all Christians start to seriously study what Islam is about.
The devil cannot be faught with the devil. Truth must overcome the lie.

We have the Truth and so the responsibility is ours. This is about powers and principalities… not humans. God loves the Muslims, but I am sure He wishes no one to live under Taleban, Sharia or the Muslim Kalifath which many, many Muslims hope to establish first in Europe, then in America.

I didn’t ask what you expected from the West, I asked what your opinion was on how the West should handle this problem?

I don’t think it’s not a matter of not knowing what Islam is about. That’s the problem in this instance. We know how Muslims would react to burning the Koran, it was told to the Pastor directly. With this knowledge, He burned the Koran and people died because of protests over his actions.

 

[mdrummer5]

I think there is also a difference between anger and murder in the eyes of God.

I’m sure it is… but do you honestly think that purposely inciting anger is something that Christ would’ve taught? Of course not. So while from a human point of view it makes logical sense (I don’t agree with it but I understand what you’re saying) I think it would be quite damaging to the soul to try to make someone angry. In other words I don’t think God would want us to make someone angry for His sake.