UN staff killed in Afghan protest over Quran burning in US

[pnewton]

Do you think all the people of that village are violent? You used a mass murder analogy earlier, was the whole neighborhood full of mass murderers?

It was very possible for this to have been a peaceful village. It only takes a few to incite a riot.

I never said that everyone in the village was violent. As you point out, it only takes a few to make a village riot. My point is that it this should not be defined as peaceful.

There appears to be a condemnation of every Muslim in world by the pastor and some on this thread. I never said the pastor might be convicted but he will be judged, as will we all.

Can we cut this stupid strawman out and bury it. No one is condemning every Muslim. This lie is used to silence any criticism of any Muslim and it wears thin. This sort of lie, even though you hedged by using “appears” is what leads to out of control political correctness, where we start avoiding discussion of evil less someone like you say we are blaming “all” of x,y or z.

I challenge you to back up your statement where any poster here dared to condemn every Muslim.

In fact, it seems to me that the only blanket statement against Muslims are those that state as an axiom in proofs that burning a Koran results in Muslims committing violence, as if they have no free will.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Neither the oppression of women delat with in that work, nor the note knifed into Theos heart as a result made me smile much.
And Van Gogh is as dead as the UN workers.

Sorry. I was not grinning at the oppression or the death. I thought you were making a joke when you stated Van Gogh was the better artist.

 

[mdrummer5]

I already did in #451.

I guess you were right, there’s an intelligence issue here.

There sure is… I asked a yes or no question… here’s your response.

First, I feel no need to do such a thing so your question is, in fact, unanswerable.

You avoided directly answering the question. It’s not unanswerable… for the sake of argument say that you DID feel a need to do it… would you still do it knowing that it would likely result in violence?

Or if it helps consider something you do feel compelled to do… would you do it if it was likely to result in violence?

 

[iamrefreshed]

Can we cut this stupid strawman out and bury it. No one is condemning every Muslim. This lie is used to silence any criticism of any Muslim and it wears thin. This sort of lie, even though you hedged by using “appears” is what leads to out of control political correctness, where we start avoiding discussion of evil less someone like you say we are blaming “all” of x,y or z.

I challenge you to back up your statement where any poster here dared to condemn every Muslim.

Actually he is comdemning every Muslim in his last few posts as he tries to prove the riots were throughout the Muslim world.

 

[GraceDK]

I come late to this thread, so maybe no one is around anymore, but I gotta ask myself if the people in the first three pages have LOST THEIR MINDS.

You sit there and speak about tolerance…

The pastor in Florida threatened to burn a Quran. Why? because he thinks it is a hatefilled and ungodly book which called to violence on nonb-muslims. Maybe he was even inspired by the New Testament where we read that books of sorcery were burned by new believers.

The whole political world, lead by Hillary Clinton, was in uproar condemning the pastor and calling him not to do it. Why? because you never know what the Muslim mobs might do…
A few years ago they boycotted a lot of goods, killed priests had huge demonstrations because somebody drew Muhammad with a bomb in his turban (which was very fitting)

All the while there was DEAFENING silence when hundreds of Bibles were burned in Iran in 2010, when Churches were bombed and Christians massacred by Islamists in the Middle East the whole last year. Clinton and Obama and all those … silent!.

Its not proper to burn books indeed, but if any book deserved it it would be the Quran and the Hadith… They comdemn the people who say Jesus is son of God. call to slay the polytheists (us, which is clear from the context because Muhammad didn’t understand Trinitarian doctrine) … calls for the Sharia law to be implemented, non-muslims to be subdued, and says that Muhammad is the supreme example of a perfect man and all Muslim men should immitate him. For this reason polygamy and child-marriage is still widely practiced in the Middle East as is stoning of adulterers, cutting off peoples hands for theft, women given haft the credibility of men in court etc etc etc.

My take is that most people here have not bothered to read the Quran and Hadith about the life of Muhammad. You are ignorant and you sell out of Western and Christian values when you fall on your tail infront of the inhumanity of other belief-systems.

In the Middle ages at least the Catholic world knew to fight Islamic agressors to the teath… But you sit here and prefer to condemn a man for burning a hate inducing book, as though he is to blame for the Islamists who CUT OF PEOPLE’S HEADS… They learn to do such horrendous acts from that book which the pastor burned.

Maybe if I say “boh” to my neighbour and he takes out a mashine gun and shoots me, you will condemn me and say it was my fault that my neighbour killed me.

NUTS!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I never said that everyone in the village was violent. As you point out, it only takes a few to make a village riot. My point is that it this should not be defined as peaceful.

Can we cut this stupid strawman out and bury it. No one is condemning every Muslim. This lie is used to silence any criticism of any Muslim and it wears thin. This sort of lie, even though you hedged by using “appears” is what leads to out of control political correctness, where we start avoiding discussion of evil less someone like you say we are blaming “all” of x,y or z.

I challenge you to back up your statement where any poster here dared to condemn every Muslim.

I asked the question several times. It was avoided, and semantics were used to avoid a direct answer. The appearance of bigotry is visible, in my honest opinion. If I am wrong, it’s my opinion and not stated as a fact and, I apologize to the innocent offended by what I see and state in this thread. I asked the question in an attempt to clear up any misunderstanding on my part.

It is not an attempt at ‘political correctness’ as much as it is an attempt to post with Christian charity.

 

[iamrefreshed]

There sure is… I asked a yes or no question… here’s your response.

You avoided directly answering the question. It’s not unanswerable… for the sake of argument say that you DID feel a need to do it… would you still do it knowing that it would likely result in violence?

Or if it helps consider something you do feel compelled to do… would you do it if it was likely to result in violence?

Read #451 again, slowly.

And this…en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

“Have you stopped beating your wife?” Yes or no?

Don’t avoid answering the direct question. It’s not unanswerable.

 

[pnewton]

Our anti-hatred legislation is straightforward where there is clear evidence of incitement to hatred i.e. violence. However, it has also resulted in a few problems with frivolous lawsuits because of the way legislation on public disorder was drafted. Currently, Section 5 of our Public Order Act states: “…(1) *A person is guilty of an offence if he: *
*(a) uses threatening, abusive or **insulting ***words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or …”. Our most recent case on religious expression was that of Dale McAlpine. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/8687395.stm .

I had an interesting twist on this. Why is there an assumption that this action was based on hate as opposed to theology? It may well have been and the act remains just as offensive and uncharitable, at least from my point of view. However, perhaps he was giving a theological object lesson.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Actually he is comdemning every Muslim in his last few posts as he tries to prove the riots were throughout the Muslim world.

I was providing you information showing you were wrong that protests only exist in the one locale.

This is my last response to you, even if you choose to spin and twist my posts to others. I don’t see it as an honest form of discussion.

God Bless

 

[estesbob]

I had an interesting twist on this. Why is there an assumption that this action was based on hate as opposed to theology? It may well have been and the act remains just as offensive and uncharitable, at least from my point of view. However, perhaps he was giving a theological object lesson.

One thing for sure-with the condemnation of his actions by the Vatican he has become a folk hero among fundamentalists.

 

[mdrummer5]

Read #451 again, slowly.

And this…en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

“Have you stopped beating your wife?” Yes or no?

Don’t avoid answering the direct question. It’s not unanswerable.

I see your point… but it doesn’t change mine.

Again… I reworded my question just for you…

Say something you DO feel compelled to do for the sole purpose of illiciting a response would likely result in violence… would you do it?

 

[GraceDK]

Neither the oppression of women delat with in that work, nor the note knifed into Theos heart as a result made me smile much.
And Van Gogh is as dead as the UN workers.

Indeed he is, He was going to work in the morning and met an Islamist who wanted to kill him.
Interestingly the last thing Theo Van Gogh yelled as a good Dutchman was: “Can’t we talk about it”. Then he was stabbed to death for working together with an infidel/fallen away Muslim, with whom he made the movie about supression of women in Islam.

In my country half of the Muslim population ( second and third generation immigrants) say that they believe criticism of Islam and the prophet should be illegal.
Already artists and thinkers all over Europe are scared shitless to critizise anything about Islam because they fear violence or death.

Very thought provoking. People here seems to think islam is like another kind of Christianity, or a small heresy. Its not so. I URGE you as Catholics to study into what it really teaches.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I had an interesting twist on this. Why is there an assumption that this action was based on hate as opposed to theology? It may well have been and the act remains just as offensive and uncharitable, at least from my point of view. However, perhaps he was giving a theological object lesson.

That is exactly why these questions about “would you have done this” are pointless and unanswereable.

None of us know Pastor Jones motives or what he believes in his heart.

We all know he is protected under free speech.

Catholics here assume they know why he did it and project blame.

 

[pnewton]

It is not an attempt at ‘political correctness’ as much as it is an attempt to post with Christian charity.

I understand that. It is why the Holy Father condemned the actions of this pastor. It is why I see his act as an uncharitable expression. However, understanding this incident, we can not lose sight of the position of the Catholic Church on Islam. As we know as dogma, there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. While those in a state of invincible ignorance, Muslims included can not be excluded as still being saved through the Catholic Church, it is still and exceptable point of view that Islam brings darkness, whereas Christ is the light. That is what we belive. This belief does not make us bigots. Denouncing the errors of Islam and attempting to convert these people to the light of Christ is an act of charity. I can not read the heart of this pastor. I will say that his act did not seem one aimed at conversion, but provocation, but that is just as I see it.

On the other hand, I do know that all life is precious to God. Anyone who takes the life of another, be it for greed in an abortion or hatred in a riot, has committed a grave offense against God. That is why I can not put the actions of this pastor and those of the rioters even in the same ballpark.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I see your point… but it doesn’t change mine.

Again… I reworded my question just for you…

Say something you DO feel compelled to do for the sole purpose of illiciting a response would likely result in violence… would you do it?

Did you not read my answer in #451?

Here it is again…

Secondly, if I did feel the need to do so then I would go ahead and do so.

Protesting an abortion clinic could have a violent result. It doesn’t mean that the action should not be taken.

Why do you feel that you know exactly what the Pastor thought?

 

[GraceDK]

One thing for sure-with the condemnation of his actions by the Vatican he has become a folk hero among fundamentalists.

I hope the Vatican cared to condemn at the same time and in much harder language: the Islamist muderers and those that burn Churches and massacre Christians and burn Bibles… or will also the Church be silent on that and sing along on a note that has the world upside down

 

[mdrummer5]

None of us know Pastor Jones motives or what he believes in his heart.

This is a fair point.

But do you honestly think that he didn’t have reason to believe that his actions would result in violence?

 

[Darryl1958]

Sorry. I was not grinning at the oppression or the death. I thought you were making a joke when you stated Van Gogh was the better artist.

It wasn’t a joke. Van Gogh and Hirsi Ali’s art involved a direct criticism of the Koranic verses that lead to the oppression of women. It was an intelligent, informed commentary that resulted in a violent death of Van Gogh, the expulsion of Ali from Holland amidst a chorus of Muslim death threats, mutterings about Islamophobia from the elites, and an overal strengthening of ‘hate laws’, in case the next Van Gogh might be bold enough to try something similar.
Overall, a cowardly response that could only embolden the violent Islamists who noted how well violence worked against the pc crowd.

The time for society to actually stand up to the bully has come and gone. Society as a whole could not due to cowardice and political correctness.
Ergo, Pastor Jones.

 

[GraceDK]

On the other hand, I do know that all life is precious to God. Anyone who takes the life of another, be it for greed in an abortion or hatred in a riot, has committed a grave offense against God. That is why I can not put the actions of this pastor and those of the rioters even in the same ballpark.

Indeed. Thank you for this post.
I am starting to feel like my brothers and sisters have lost all sense of proportion and its very frustrating.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Nope, but, I am still waiting on the Vatican to condemn the coldblooded murders of the UN workers in Afganistan. I see that they are pleading for an end to the bloodshed, but haven’t condemned it yet.

Thanks for the direct answer.

Murder is condemned by the Church, even previous to this incident.