UN staff killed in Afghan protest over Quran burning in US

[Scott_Lafrance]

I would like to point out again that Christianity is not without it’s violent past…

I would like to point out again that there is nothing in the Gospel of Christ where He commands His followers to commit violence against others for the sake of Him. If you know of something, please, educate us all. There may have been Christians who committed violence “in the name of Christ” but is sure as heck wasn’t at the command of Christ. In fact, the tenets that He taught were quite the antithesis of retributive of convertive violence.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I made a mistake in that post. It said ‘are’ and I meant ‘are not’. But it was very quick of you to jump on a typo.

Yeah, OK a typo

That sentence makes zero contextual sense as an “are not” in your post…but whatever.

 

[KevinAK]

The UN staff were not killed because a Quran was burnt. These EVIL men would have committed the murders anyway.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Is it bigotry when this pastor points, accurately, that the Koran commands its adherents to kill anyone who does not submit to the Koran? His act was a statement saying “I will never surrender myself to this false religion”.

I will admit, I don’t know the Koran personally but, I wouldn’t put much trust in his interpretation of the Koran, since I don’t trust his interpretation of the Bible, As I’ve stated, the Bible clearly shows the teachings of Christ and the early Church to be different than what is being practiced as a provocation by the pastor.

Christ’s Church overcame great adversity through faith. It seems we are now faced with Islam and using man’s ideas over the teachings of Christ, in my honest opinion.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The UN staff were not killed because a Quran was burnt. These EVIL men would have committed the murders anyway.

So on that date those killings would have happened anyways? It was clearly a chain reaction of events based on an action of the pastor.

Do you think what the pastor did was wrong at all, for any reason?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

So on that date those killings would have happened anyways? It was clearly a chain reaction of events based on an action of the pastor.

Do you think what the pastor did was wrong at all, for any reason?

Ironically, the peaceful Muslims were only acting on the dictates of the book that was burned. What exactly should we do with a text that not only advocates, but in fact commands violence against non-believers? What if this was a secular book that commanded people who believe in socialism to kill anyone who will not submit to a socialist system? Would we still be having this conversation? And if a capitalist burned this book and it caused a bunch of socialists to go on a murderous rampage, who would be to blame?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

So I was right. You blame Theo Van Gogh for his own murder.

If it makes your feel right, or comforts you somehow to put words in my mouth or twist what I say, I cannot stop you. It makes me think there will be no honesty in a discussion with someone who persists on relying on that type activity.

 

[mdrummer5]

I would like to point out again that there is nothing in the Gospel of Christ where He commands His followers to commit violence against others for the sake of Him. If you know of something, please, educate us all. There may have been Christians who committed violence “in the name of Christ” but is sure as heck wasn’t at the command of Christ. In fact, the tenets that He taught were quite the antithesis of retributive of convertive violence.

I agree… however that makes it worse does it not? Fanatic Christians took the Word of God and twisted it to justify murder. According to critics of the Koran it actually commends such violence. In reality it’s the same kind of misinterpretation that Christians have been guilty of in the past.

If a non-christian were to read the bible with no knowledge of any theology they could very easily say that it condones violence. In fact that is one of athiesm’s biggest objections to the bible.

 

[iamrefreshed]

If it makes your feel right, or comforts you somehow to put words in my mouth or twist what I say, I cannot stop you. It makes me think there will be no honesty in a discussion with someone who persists on relying on that type activity.

Then feel free to express your opinion as clearly as you did about Pastor Jones.

You have dodged the question twice already.

Is Theo Van Vogh responsible for his own murder? One little yes or no would do.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Ironically, the peaceful Muslims were only acting on the dictates of the book that was burned. What exactly should we do with a text that not only advocates, but in fact commands violence against non-believers? What if this was a secular book that commanded people who believe in socialism to kill anyone who will not submit to a socialist system? Would we still be having this conversation? And if a capitalist burned this book and it caused a bunch of socialists to go on a murderous rampage, who would be to blame?

Why throw in hypothetical when we have reality before us?

One last time, I do not hold the Muslims blameless, but I do not think the pastor to be blameless in this mess either.

There is a complete different culture we are dealing with, as well as the theological differences. We know that and have to deal with them with that knowledge, without endangering innocents in the area. That’s as simple as I can state it. It seems since this is far removed to a part of the world where most of us are not, it’s acceptable to inflame those in majority in that area. There also appears to be that the cultural/ethnic differences might have some influence in the approval of the pastor’s actions.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I agree… however that makes it worse does it not? Fanatic Christians took the Word of God and twisted it to justify murder. According to critics of the Koran it actually commends such violence. In reality it’s the same kind of misinterpretation that Christians have been guilty of in the past.

If a non-christian were to read the bible with no knowledge of any theology they could very easily say that it condones violence. In fact that is one of athiesm’s biggest objections to the bible.

The Koran, as observed by the example of Muhammed, does command it. If you want to find out what the truth of a religious text is, observe the founder of the faith. Muhammed was, among other things, a violent man who spread his new faith by the sword. Christ did no such thing, in fact, peacefully offering himself up to be executed without resisting.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Then feel free to express your opinion as clearly as you did about Pastor Jones.

You have dodged the question twice already.

Is Theo Van Vogh responsible for his own murder? One little yes or no would do.

I have dodged nothing. Theo Van Gogh did no more than JFK did in his own assassination, or Martin Luther King. Pastor Jones did what he did to inflame, which endangered innocent people in that area of the world. If you cannot understand that answer, I don’t know how to make it any clearer for you. It appears you only want to twist it in an attempt of self justification anyways, so I think it best if we leave our participation to others on this thread.

God Bless.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I have dodged nothing. Theo Van Gogh did no more than JFK did in his own assassination, or Martin Luther King. Pastor Jones did what he did to inflame, which endangered innocent people in that area of the world. If you cannot understand that answer, I don’t know how to make it any clearer for you. It appears you only want to twist it in an attempt of self justification anyways, so I think it best if we leave our participation to others on this thread.

God Bless.

I figured as much.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Why throw in hypothetical when we have reality before us?

One last time, I do not hold the Muslims blameless, but I do not think the pastor to be blameless in this mess either.

There is a complete different culture we are dealing with, as well as the theological differences. We know that and have to deal with them with that knowledge, without endangering innocents in the area. That’s as simple as I can state it. It seems since this is far removed to a part of the world where most of us are not, it’s acceptable to inflame those in majority in that area. There also appears to be that the cultural/ethnic differences might have some influence in the approval of the pastor’s actions.

I threw the hypothetical in there because if the Koran were not a “revered holy text” for 1+ billion people, and still advocated for violence and murder against people who don’t subscribe to it, the rest of the world would be calling for every last copy of the book to be burned. But, since it is a “holy book” and the followers of said “holy book” have demonstrated a penchant for killing, looting, burning, raping, and pillaging anyone and anything who dares look at it funny, the rest of the world caves in to these madmen.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I have dodged nothing. Theo Van Gogh did no more than JFK did in his own assassination, or Martin Luther King. Pastor Jones did what he did to inflame, which endangered innocent people in that area of the world. If you cannot understand that answer, I don’t know how to make it any clearer for you. It appears you only want to twist it in an attempt of self justification anyways, so I think it best if we leave our participation to others on this thread.

God Bless.

Perhaps you should refresh your knowledge.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director

Yes, film director, not president or civil rights activist.

 

[Darryl1958]

There are differences between the actions of Van Gogh and pastor Jones. One revealed cultural differences that struck the nerve of a fanatic and the other desecrated something they considered sacred that struck many nerves. One put himself in danger alone and the other endangered many other people, as well as himself.

Not really.
Both made scathing comments on the Koran, Van Gogh was the better artist.

 

[Linda_Marie]

They were burning churches and murdering Christians long before Pastor Jones was even born. They would have found another excuse to go on their murderous rampage even if he hadn’t burned a koran.

All it took was the accusation that someone desecrated the book in Ethiopia to trigger rioting, and burning on a huge scale. No one had done anything against them or their precious book. They burned, looted and murdered on the basis of a rumour.

Their actions amount to coercion, requiring that we modify our behaviour, lest we ‘provoke’ them. Every time we modify our behaviour (in our own lands I might add) in response to their violence, we have succumbed to blackmail and we accept their boots upon our necks, their yoke on our backs.

I speak from experience. I was in Saudi Arabia in 1967 during the June War. The arabs we had thought were our friends rose up against us and attacked us because of what someone else was doing to muslims in another country. At least we were able to keep them out of the camp and keep them from killing us. I had always wondered why we had barbed wire at the top of the 12 foot fence surrounding the camp and armed soldiers on the gates.

Don’t bend the knee and accept dhimmitude. As a lifestyle, it is the pits.

I guess the Crusaders were all wrong then when they went to the Holy Land to defend their brother and sister Christians from the maurading Muslims. What are we doing now to defend our brothers and sisters from this evil? Just praying?

Sometimes, we have to be the angry Jesus who wove a scourge out of cords and drove the money lenders out of the temple. Sometimes we need to stand up for our fellow Christians and defend them and us from this assault. Don’t wait until they are slitting our throats or hacking our heads off to finally stand up to this injustice, blackmail, coercion and plain murder.

 

[Darryl1958]

Were Van Gogh and Hirsi Ali similarly misguided and foolish?
How about the pope and the murder and riots that his speech ‘provoked’?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Not really.
Both made scathing comments on the Koran, Van Gogh was the better artist.

One took it beyond comments. Similar to arguments made against the Eucharist; speaking against it is one thing, desecrating it is another.

I admit, the better artist comment made me grin.

 

[mdrummer5]

The Koran, as observed by the example of Muhammed, does command it. If you want to find out what the truth of a religious text is, observe the founder of the faith. Muhammed was, among other things, a violent man who spread his new faith by the sword. Christ did no such thing, in fact, peacefully offering himself up to be executed without resisting.

Did God not do the same thing with the Jews in the OT? Yes I realize the NT changed things but it’s interesting how quickly people forget about our faiths violent history when observing another’s…