Unconditional love, hell

[NoelFitz]

Thanks most sincerely to all who have contributed to this discussion. I am grateful for the courtesy, respect and seriousness of the posts, all of which show the deep Catholic commitment of participants.

In the current Irish Catholic I read “…he ( B XVI) again-and-again underlined his belief that Christianity must be presented as a radical joy-filled choice to follow God rather than a list of prohibitions” But Catholicism is a both/and religion, so, as well as heaven, hell exists, thus facing up to its reality is appropriate.

Previously I replied to 20 posts, now I consider #21 to #30.

#21 Even in a monastery sin can exist, e.g. lustful thoughts and pride.

#22 Thank you for sharing, but this post is off-topic.

#23 We only know God by analogy. Good parents never reject their children.

#24 The answer to the question is YES (probably).

#25 I accept God always loves his creatures, even if he keeps them suffering for all time.

#26 Your post advocates relativism. For Catholics there are absolutes.

#27 Jesus forbade divorce categorically.

#28 NF

#29 The ‘last rites’ are not relevant for billions of non-Catholics. If there is no desire to repent is it eternal suffering?

#30 I am not sure what this post implies.

 

[thistle]

so basically, you’re saying that no one will go to hell unless they want to and that makes sense to me.

In short, yes. God gave us free will to accept or reject his love.
Committing a mortal sin is a deliberate act (cannot be done by accident) of our freewill and is a rejection of God’s love. If we die unrepentant then that is our CHOICE to go to Hell. God does not send anyone to Hell.

 

[cheezey]

In short, yes. God gave us free will to accept or reject his love.
Committing a mortal sin is a deliberate act (cannot be done by accident) of our freewill and is a rejection of God’s love. If we die unrepentant then that is our CHOICE to go to Hell. God does not send anyone to Hell.

in other words, God does not send anyone to hell, we send our unrepentant selves…

(This is my pre RCIA, as I cannot get in soon…)

 

[thistle]

in other words, God does not send anyone to hell, we send our unrepentant selves…

(This is my pre RCIA, as I cannot get in soon…)

Correct.

I was a born and brought up Methodist and 21 years ago I went through RCIA and became a Catholic. One of the best days of my life.

 

[anngs]

I don’t believe that any of the responses to the question mentioned purgatory, or the virtue of Hope, for that matter. Judging by the state of the world, it seems very likely to me that the vast majority of us will end up in purgatory for some period. I’ve heard it said that in these evil times, grace abounds, and in fact, extra graces are attached to praying the rosary and Divine Mercy Chaplet. My intuition tells me that God’s mercy would allow us a final moment of repentance before dying, especially if we “store up treasures” while we’re alive, to avoid the problem of eternal damnation due to one mortal sin (or many!). We all know that our souls aren’t dead even if our bodies are in a state of incapacitation. I also remember reading that St. Teresa of Avila advised against pondering hell too deeply. We don’t know what happens when we die and that fact shouldn’t cause us to lose hope.

 

[cheezey]

I don’t believe that any of the responses to the question mentioned purgatory, or the virtue of Hope, for that matter. Judging by the state of the world, it seems very likely to me that the vast majority of us will end up in purgatory for some period. I’ve heard it said that in these evil times, grace abounds, and in fact, extra graces are attached to praying the rosary and Divine Mercy Chaplet. My intuition tells me that God’s mercy would allow us a final moment of repentance before dying, especially if we “store up treasures” while we’re alive, to avoid the problem of eternal damnation due to one mortal sin (or many!). We all know that our souls aren’t dead even if our bodies are in a state of incapacitation. I also remember reading that St. Teresa of Avila advised against pondering hell too deeply. We don’t know what happens when we die and that fact shouldn’t cause us to lose hope.

Or even just after dying. It’s not as if He wants to let go of us. I will not let go of Him
And yes, I try not to think of it too much. My life seems hellish; if this is a clue, I do not want hell

 

[sw85]

Is God’s love unconditional? If one commits one mortal sin and dies without forgiveness one is condemned to the pains of hell for all eternity, where God will keep us alive only to suffer. How can God’s love for us allow this pain without hope of relief?

To love means to will what is best for another, for their own sake.

What is best (i.e., good) for another has a very specific meaning. Think of this way: a “good sandwich” is not good the same way a “good dog” is, or the same way a “good friend” is, or the same way a “good movie” is, etc.

In every case, by “good” we mean “characteristically excellent,” which means we have to look at the characteristic excellencies of a thing to evaluate whether or not it’s “good.” That means we have to think about what that thing actually is and evaluate it accordingly.

Now it’s intrinsic to the nature of man that he has reason and free will. If he has reason, he is capable of discerning the good; if he was free will, he is capable of choosing to act upon it, or not so choosing, or not choosing at all. That means he has moral responsibility for his actions. It’s in this sense that we are “created in God’s image,” because our God is supremely reasonable, supremely free, and supremely responsible. That’s why He died for us. The cross is a symbol of God’s responsibility for His creation.

Now if God were simply to throw open the gates of Heaven and let everyone in without, in any way, accounting for their sins, that would not be good for us. It would be denying us the very real good of moral accountability. Worse, it would make a liar of God, because it would require him to pretend our sins don’t exist when they do. Since God is truth, He literally can’t do this, in the sense that He literally can’t make a round square.

All of this is to say that Hell doesn’t exist despite God’s love but because of it.

 

[thistle]

I don’t believe that any of the responses to the question mentioned purgatory, or the virtue of Hope, for that matter. Judging by the state of the world, it seems very likely to me that the vast majority of us will end up in purgatory for some period. I’ve heard it said that in these evil times, grace abounds, and in fact, extra graces are attached to praying the rosary and Divine Mercy Chaplet. My intuition tells me that God’s mercy would allow us a final moment of repentance before dying, especially if we “store up treasures” while we’re alive, to avoid the problem of eternal damnation due to one mortal sin (or many!). We all know that our souls aren’t dead even if our bodies are in a state of incapacitation. I also remember reading that St. Teresa of Avila advised against pondering hell too deeply. We don’t know what happens when we die and that fact shouldn’t cause us to lose hope.

To end up in Purgatory means you have to die in a state of grace. Personally I do not believe the vast majority of us will be saved.

 

[anngs]

I guess what I meant was that if we pray and regularly receive the sacraments during our lifetimes, there is good reason to hope for divine assistance at the end of our lives. By that I mean that we’d be able to receive the sacraments (in the hospital or whatever) or at the very least, be able to make an act of perfect contrition in order to avoid hell. Of course I’m only speculating.

 

[BobCatholic]

Help me to understand this.

If someone loves me, they want me to be with them.

But if I’m in mortal sin, or don’t want to suffer, God does not want me to be with him.

His love is totally conditional!

 

[thistle]

Help me to understand this.

If someone loves me, they want me to be with them.

But if I’m in mortal sin, or don’t want to suffer, God does not want me to be with him.

His love is totally conditional!

You are wrong. God wants everyone to be with him but its not his choice. Its ours. He gave us free will and he loves us so much he will not force us to be with him.
If you are in a state of mortal sin that was your choice to reject God’s love (that’s what mortally sinning means), and if you do not repent before you die that is your choice to spend forever in Hell separated from God.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Help me to understand this.

If someone loves me, they want me to be with them.

But if I’m in mortal sin, or don’t want to suffer, God does not want me to be with him.

His love is totally conditional!

False premises, false conclusion.

Suppose you love Jane. Jane, however, does not love you. Jane loves someone else. YOU might want Jane to be with you because you love her, but if Jane doesn’t want to be with you, would you FORCE her? in the name of love? What about Jane’s feelings, are they to be subordinated to yours? Not as important?

What is this ‘don’t want to suffer"? Are you saying that a person who ‘refuses’ purgatory, ‘doesn’t want to suffer’ and then God kicks him away? Nobody WANTS to suffer but if you were told that you had a leg infection and would have to suffer an operation in order to save the leg, and you said, "i don’t want to SUFFER’, and you lose the leg and maybe your life as well, is it the fault of the person who told you what the consequences of YOUR decision would be, or is it YOUR fault?

If you’re in mortal sin, what part of ‘eternally refusing to repent’ do you not understand?

How ‘loving’ is it to force somebody who does not love you, who in fact hates you ‘to infinity and beyond’, to be ‘with you?’

God’s love is unconditional. OUR ability to accept that love is what is ‘lacking’ or conditional in your scenarios. . .you assume that God has to meet OUR ‘conditions’ in order to be ‘unconditional’, and not that we have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to impose any conditions on HIM.

 

[BobCatholic]

You are wrong. God wants everyone to be with him but its not his choice. Its ours. He gave us free will and he loves us so much he will not force us to be with him.
If you are in a state of mortal sin that was your choice to reject God’s love (that’s what mortally sinning means), and if you do not repent before you die that is your choice to spend forever in Hell separated from God.

OK, mortal sin is easily solved with Confession (Thank you Lord Jesus Christ!)

I want to be with God. However God says “you must suffer or I don’t want you”

That is a CONDITION of his love.

False premises, false conclusion.

Suppose you love Jane. Jane, however, does not love you. Jane loves someone else. YOU might want Jane to be with you because you love her, but if Jane doesn’t want to be with you, would you FORCE her? in the name of love? What about Jane’s feelings, are they to be subordinated to yours? Not as important?

This assumes Jane has full free will.

If someone is created imperfectly, their free will is impaired, or even gone.

Example: The person born with MS and is in a wheelchair has no choice when it comes to running the NYC marathon.

Or if a person is put in horrible situations (beyond their control), their free will is impaired or even gone.
Example: A baby born to a violent mother and father. How much free will does the kid have in being violent when he is older? Not 100% free. His free will has been reduced.

Concupiscence also makes people more likely to sin. I wish I could find a cure for that.

What is this 'don’t want to suffer"?

My cross is too heavy. God says I must suffer or else he does not want me.

You must carry your cross. Matthew 16:24
Yes, you must carry your cross. Mark 8:34
Yes, you must carry your cross. Luke 9:23
This means you will be required to suffer. John 15:20
Not just suffer, but REQUIRED to suffer with joy. 1 Peter 4:13
If you do not do this, Christ does not want you. Matthew 10:38
You are held responsible, temporally speaking, for the sin of Adam and Eve because you get the same punishments as they do:

• you are banished from the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:23)
• you must work for a living (Genesis 3:23)
• not only that it will be difficult to work (Genesis 3:19)
• women have labor pains (Genesis 3:16)

and all of this is a lack which Jesus did not suffer for to save us from (Colossians 1:24) and our bodies have not been redeemed yet. (Romans 8:18-27)

Remember, punishment is love. (Hebrews 12:6)

So if I do not want to suffer…what now?
Answer: God does not want me. All I can do is cry.

Are you saying that a person who ‘refuses’ purgatory, ‘doesn’t want to suffer’ and then God kicks him away?

Yes.

Nobody WANTS to suffer but if you were told that you had a leg infection and would have to suffer an operation in order to save the leg, and you said, "i don’t want to SUFFER’, and you lose the leg and maybe your life as well, is it the fault of the person who told you what the consequences of YOUR decision would be, or is it YOUR fault?

You are comparing apples to roast beef.

An imperfect human doctor would say “OK, let’s give you some anaesthesia” before operating on an infected leg.

God says “you must carry your cross, or I don’t want you.”

The PERFECT DOCTOR OF THE UNIVERSE does not want to give me any anesthesia while he operates on me. If I had God’s anesthesia I would not suffer.

What’s wrong with this picture?

 

[paul_c]

Help me to understand this.

If someone loves me, they want me to be with them.

But if I’m in mortal sin, or don’t want to suffer, God does not want me to be with him.

His love is totally conditional!

Bob,
Love in a theological sense is not a feeling or an emotion, it is doing something for the good of another without expecting anything in return.

Suffering is not opposed to love. Jesus suffered for us out of love for us.

Getting everything we want without challenges is not good for us. You;ve seen people like that right?

God holds us to high standards because it is good for us. And he holds us accountable for the same reason. It teaches us to love and to do the right things.

What happens to the children of permissive parents, whose are never held accountable?

Do you think people who are don’t want to help their neighbors in life will be happy doing that for an eternity?

 

[truthseeker32]

When discussing salvation, damnation, and mortal sin it is important to remember a few key points:

1. Other people can’t make judgments about another’s status or salvation.
2. Something is only a mortal sin if the person commiting the act knows they are doing wrong. If a lapsed Catholic doesn’t think he is doing anything wrong by missing mass it probably isn’t a mortal sin.
3. God doesn’t want anyone to suffer Hell. Hell exists because we are free, and thus it is possible that some will willingly choose to turn away from God.
4. The Church has not declared that anyone is in Hell. Hell could be heavily populated, sparsely populated, or somewhere in between,
5. Because God is Perfect Love we can be assured that if anyone is in Hell it is because they cannot be saved. Anyone for whom there is still hope will enter purgatory.

I think there is this false idea among some Catholics that any time anyone misses Mass (aside from permissible reasons for missing Mass) or commiting any other sin, they are in mortal danger. That isn’t how it works. It is only a mortal sin if one sins knowing they are doing wrong.

 

[Aloysium]

John 6:47 In all truth I tell you, everyone who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life.

 

[BobCatholic]

Suffering is not opposed to love. Jesus suffered for us out of love for us.

Jesus chose to suffer. He had a choice, He did not have to suffer. So his love is true.

We don’t have a choice. We are required to suffer. So how can we love like Jesus when we don’t have a choice?

And on top of that: How is it loving for God to require us to suffer? If I love someone I don’t want to hurt them, nor do I want them to suffer. I’m an imperfect being and even I know this is true. God is perfect, and doesn’t believe this simple to understand belief.

God should have created us perfect in the first place. That way we would not be required to suffer.

Getting everything we want without challenges is not good for us. You;ve seen people like that right?

Because people are created imperfect, this happens. It is a bug in the software which was put there by the original author. If God created us perfect this would never happen.

God holds us to high standards because it is good for us.

Without giving the person the ability to accomplish those high standards it is nothing but a recipe for disaster.

If God wants us to be able to accomplish high standards, he should have created us perfect.

“I want you to run a marathon, but I created you with MS and you’re in a wheelchair.”

Very funny Boss!

This is what happens when someone has a cross which is too heavy for them. It is a recipe for disaster.

 

[cheezey]

Jesus chose to suffer. He had a choice, He did not have to suffer. So his love is true.

We don’t have a choice. We are required to suffer. So how can we love like Jesus when we don’t have a choice?

And on top of that: How is it loving for God to require us to suffer? If I love someone I don’t want to hurt them, nor do I want them to suffer. I’m an imperfect being and even I know this is true. God is perfect, and doesn’t believe this simple to understand belief.

God should have created us perfect in the first place. That way we would not be required to suffer.

Because people are created imperfect, this happens. It is a bug in the software which was put there by the original author. If God created us perfect this would never happen.

Without giving the person the ability to accomplish those high standards it is nothing but a recipe for disaster.

If God wants us to be able to accomplish high standards, he should have created us perfect.

“I want you to run a marathon, but I created you with MS and you’re in a wheelchair.”

Very funny Boss!

This is what happens when someone has a cross which is too heavy for them. It is a recipe for disaster.

We do not choose to suffer, but we can choose to love. Without anything but a prayer, we can choose to love.
It is tough to see that sometimes. I am there. My cross is heavy. I wish it was less so, and that’s okay.
What is tough for me is that I do not not know what He wants of me. Except of course, to love.
So I am wondering, if you and I, being imperfect as we are, have the added cross of assuming to know what He wants of us. That would certainly make any cross heavier, would it not?
I am praying for you, Bob. I know what to say for you, not so much myself, so would you pray for me?
Blessings

I had a another repsonse initially; perhaps later.

 

[steve_b]

Is God’s love unconditional? If one commits one mortal sin and dies without forgiveness one is condemned to the pains of hell for all eternity, where God will keep us alive only to suffer. How can God’s love for us allow this pain without hope of relief?

God always loves us. The condition is on us. Remember Jesus saying, “If you love me keep my commandments”. IF is a qualifier. But notice it doesn’t say the reverse, …i.e., If you keep my commandment I will love you. Therefore, God loves us even in hell. And one in hell loved sin over God. So God eternalizes their choice.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

OK, mortal sin is easily solved with Confession (Thank you Lord Jesus Christ!)

I want to be with God. However God says “you must suffer or I don’t want you” This is not a true statement. This is an opnion of yours and it is false. If you truly wanted to be with God, you would respect the CONSEQUENCES of your actions and you would eliminate your evil; you would not demand that God permit you to escape consequences and indeed to continue sinning eternally as a condition of YOUR love.

That is a CONDITION of his love.

This assumes Jane has full free will.

If someone is created imperfectly, their free will is impaired, or even gone. again, your (incorrect) OPINION is being stated as ‘fact’. We are created perfectly, but due to Adam and Eve, we have a ‘tendency’ to sin. This in no way FORCES us to sin or makes us ‘bound’ to sin, so we DO have full free will.

Example: The person born with MS and is in a wheelchair has no choice when it comes to running the NYC marathon. Tell that to the many who have competed in wheelchairs.

Or if a person is put in horrible situations (beyond their control), their free will is impaired or even gone.No it is not gone.
Example: A baby born to a violent mother and father. How much free will does the kid have in being violent when he is older? Not 100% free. His free will has been reduced.
And naturally God hasn’t EVER considered any of this and He judges every single person based on a putative ‘perfect circumstances of life’ situation.

Concupiscence also makes people more likely to sin. I wish I could find a cure for that.

My cross is too heavy. God says I must suffer or else he does not want me. No He doesn’t. YOU keep saying it.

You must carry your cross. Matthew 16:24
Yes, you must carry your cross. Mark 8:34
Yes, you must carry your cross. Luke 9:23
This means you will be required to suffer. John 15:20
Not just suffer, but REQUIRED to suffer with joy. 1 Peter 4:13
If you do not do this, Christ does not want you. Matthew 10:38
You are held responsible, temporally speaking, for the sin of Adam and Eve because you get the same punishments as they do:

• you are banished from the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:23

AND THE SAME FREE GIFT OF SALVATION THEY HAD IN CHRIST>

You keep forgetting how "Come to Me who are heavily burdened and I WILL GIVE YOU REST. TAKE MY YOKE UPON YOU for MY YOKE IS EASY and MY BURDEN IS LIGHT.)

• you must work for a living (Genesis 3:23)
• not only that it will be difficult to work (Genesis 3:19)
• women have labor pains (Genesis 3:16)

and all of this is a lack which Jesus did not suffer for to save us from (Colossians 1:24) and our bodies have not been redeemed yet. (Romans 8:18-27)

Remember, punishment is love. (Hebrews 12:6)

So if I do not want to suffer…what now?
Answer: God does not want me. All I can do is cry. Don’t shut Him out., You’re speaking for Him I(and wrongly), Let Him speak to you and LISTEN TO HIM instead of to yourself.

Yes.

You are comparing apples to roast beef.

An imperfect human doctor would say “OK, let’s give you some anaesthesia” before operating on an infected leg. News flash, IT STILL HURTS and I never said you would not HAVE anesthesia.

God says “you must carry your cross, or I don’t want you.” You keep leaving things out and speaking for God. .

The PERFECT DOCTOR OF THE UNIVERSE does not want to give me any anesthesia while he operates on me. If I had God’s anesthesia I would not suffer.yes you would but you’d accept the need and cease the wailing.

What’s wrong with this picture?