Unconditional love of God?

[glendab]

Oh Granny!

:extrahappy:

Obviously, persons in love with God, who were wiped from the face of the earth, went to heaven which is the greatest good. :extrahappy:
…At the moment of conception, when God creates the spiritual soul, the person is called to share in God’s life. Therefore, the Catholic Church teaches that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility to be in heaven, in a way known only to God.

Heaven is possible for everyone who experiences death.:extrahappy:

Do you expect me to think those who died in the Flood actually went to Heaven? Have you never read the account? I’ll help:

Genesis, Chapter 6, verses 5 and 6: "When the Lord saw how great was man’s wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his heart conceived was ever anything but evil, he regretted that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was grieved."

I see no reason to be happy and think that any of these folks got to see Heaven although the Church hesitates to say exactly who is in Hell, I’d bet there’s a really good chance that these folks who had no desire in their hearts but evil desires didn’t get to Heaven.

Think differently? Let me know how that is Granny.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Mike. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Sure, most things discussed on here is pure speculation, as in no one TRULY knows exactly what can and cannot happen in the afterlife,… I am just stating what I think is possible…It is very possible for someone to truly hate God and want nothing to do with him in this life or the afterlife, but I would imagine once they die and know the truth of what is reality, tehy would have a change of heart, but who am I to know?

You say here that NO ONE TRUELY KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT CAN AND CANNOT HAPPEN IN THE AFTERLIFE? But this directly contradicts things the Church knows and teaches about the afterlife. I can only think you aren’t as informed as you aught to be as a Catholic. Perhaps you should read up on the Resurrection accounts, the stories of the Saints who are in Heaven and things like your particular judgment or the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary. These are all things the Church teaches about that concern the afterlife. Yes we do truly know about it. They are also things you really should know about so you can accept them as Catholic teaching that you believe.

This might help: when I went through RCIA, I was told by a very wise priest that I needed to study what was contained in the Creed and the Articles of Faith and a few other things because when I stood up in front of the Congregation at that Easter Vigil I was going to be swearing to God and His Church that I believed with all my heart everything that was required of me to believe and was thereafter responsible before God for knowing and assenting to all that I was supposed to believe. I greatly feared God and what sin I would be committing if I lied or faked it. I really was weak in the knees over this. I’ve found out that it was a grace God gave me. I literally begged God to help me believe all I was supposed to so I wouldn’t be lying to Him that night. it was also told to me that on Sundays when I say the Creed and give my AMEN at the conclusion of it, I am once again affirming that initial assent to His Will and His Law and His Church. If I don’t believe I shouldn’t say AMEN but should hold back till I can say AMEN with all my heart and strength. I was told it would be a big sin to only give lip service to these great truths and the sin would be greater because I was swearing to God that night. These are my Baptismal promises. I got to swear to God for the first time in my life and I didn’t take the Lord’s name in vain that night. See what I mean?

Oh well, Sorry for the little rant, but I hope this helps and I’ve said it before I’m really no expert in anything but French fries with ketchup. I wish some of my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ could be blessed the way I was when I came into the Church with conversion.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Onesheep. Thank you for the reply.

Glenda, you have an image of God that works for you. Your motive for behaving well is the law, and by the law you love yourself and others, and by the law you see that God loves you or does not. There is really no argument to be made against your perspective. …When we choose to love with all our heart, mind and soul, we do so without the inhibition of the law. We do so against the workings of our God-given, automatic conscience.

I do not find the Law an inhibition. It was given to me by God so I could follow His Son and partake of the Redeeming work of His suffering, death and resurrection that won my salvation. If I don’t keep the Law, His sacrifice will not save me at all.

Jesus said it Himself: My yoke is easy and by burden is light. The sweetness of discovering that love and grace flow in one’s life because one is living according to God’s will in His Law is a blessing. No, I’m not deprived of anything at all by keeping the Commandments and allowing my life to be directed by the Church. I’ve gained everything by doing so. I hope you can get around seeing God’s love for you expressed by giving the Law as He said: the Way, the Truth and the Life as it is: a loving gift from a Father in Heaven who loves you.

Glenda

 

[Ben_Quincy]

Warning:

Discuss the topic, not each other.

Otherwise infractions will be issued.

 

[OneSheep]

Note: I put the above sentence from post 253 in bold because it is key.

This sentence We only can see God with our own eyes, not with someone else’.
is why I follow Catholic Church teachings in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. While it is true that my own eyes can see the beauty of God reflected in His creation, as well as the need to forgive others, I cannot depend on my own eyes to teach Divine Revelation correctly.

Seeing God with only our own human eyes often, not always, leads to various distortions of Catholic doctrines as evinced in some, not all, of the CAF posts across the forums.

I cannot dispute your comments, but you are missing my point. When you read the Cathechism, you do so with your eyes, not with my eyes, not with God’s eyes. We can only see God with our human eyes, because these are the only eyes we have. We are all going to read the Cathechism a little bit differently, because we all have our individual sets of experiences, vocabularies, and relationships with God. We are not carbon copies of each other. Does this help clarify what I’m saying?

 

[OneSheep]

Hello Onesheep. Thank you for the reply.

I do not find the Law an inhibition. It was given to me by God so I could follow His Son and partake of the Redeeming work of His suffering, death and resurrection that won my salvation. If I don’t keep the Law, His sacrifice will not save me at all.

Jesus said it Himself: My yoke is easy and by burden is light. The sweetness of discovering that love and grace flow in one’s life because one is living according to God’s will in His Law is a blessing. No, I’m not deprived of anything at all by keeping the Commandments and allowing my life to be directed by the Church. I’ve gained everything by doing so. I hope you can get around seeing God’s love for you expressed by giving the Law as He said: the Way, the Truth and the Life as it is: a loving gift from a Father in Heaven who loves you.

I agree, the law is not an inhibition, and I must clarify.

If we cling to the law, not let go of our condemnation of people and forgive, then such clinging can be an inhibition, especially when it comes to forgiveness.

If, on the other hand, we incorporate forgiveness into the law, like “always forgive”, then our following it may conflict with those parts of ourselves that wish to hang onto the condemnation of others. When we “always forgive” then we are essentially loving everyone without condition, or without limit, at least in intent. These situations are not a “problem” with the law itself, but what our consciences do with it.

Generally speaking, though, I agree with the spirit behind what you are saying about the law. The law guides us, and frees us from our appetites, which can enslave us. The law is the guidebook for repentance.

When empathy eventually becomes our guide, though, then the law is “written in our hearts”. We can fall back upon the law when we are confused, but empathy guides our behaviors. The law is from God. Empathy is from God. All is good. Each of us has his or her own journey. I respect your approach.

And if I had not done so already, I would like to thank you for posting this thread. This is an important issue, and I hope that I have communicated that there is truly room in our great Church for a variety of approaches to the topic. There is a place for everyone, we can learn together.

 

[grannymh]

Originally Posted by grannymh forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Note: I put the above sentence from post 253 in bold because it is key.

This sentence We only can see God with our own eyes, not with someone else’.
is why I follow Catholic Church teachings in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. While it is true that my own eyes can see the beauty of God reflected in His creation, as well as the need to forgive others, I cannot depend on my own eyes to teach Divine Revelation correctly.

Seeing God with only our own human eyes often, not always, leads to various distortions of Catholic doctrines as evinced in some, not all, of the CAF posts across the forums.

I cannot dispute your comments, but you are missing my point. When you read the Cathechism, you do so with your eyes, not with my eyes, not with God’s eyes. We can only see God with our human eyes, because these are the only eyes we have. We are all going to read the Cathechism a little bit differently, because we all have our individual sets of experiences, vocabularies, and relationships with God. We are not carbon copies of each other. Does this help clarify what I’m saying?

Note: I put “not with God’s eyes” in bold because it really does not belong in the category of human eyes.

I do thank you for your efforts. Unfortunately, now that the “clarification” includes “not with God’s eyes”, the breach with Catholicism is growing. May I respectfully offer the suggestion that both of us return to basic Catholicism. Not being carbon copies of each other does not lead to the inclusion of “not with God’s eyes”. The presence of God is primary when it comes to Catholic teachings.

God’s unconditional love for all persons is primary even when we recognize our freedom to shape our own life. By freedom, we mean that there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil. Obviously, our freedom is part of our human nature and thus it can be considered our “condition” when it comes to how we live either in the state of Sanctifying Grace or the state of Mortal Sin. Obviously, God has determined the “conditions” for each state.
(CCC, 1730-1734)

 

[simpleas]

Hello Mike. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

You say here that NO ONE TRUELY KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT CAN AND CANNOT HAPPEN IN THE AFTERLIFE? But this directly contradicts things the Church knows and teaches about the afterlife. I can only think you aren’t as informed as you aught to be as a Catholic. Perhaps you should read up on the Resurrection accounts, the stories of the Saints who are in Heaven and things like your particular judgment or the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary. These are all things the Church teaches about that concern the afterlife. Yes we do truly know about it. They are also things you really should know about so you can accept them as Catholic teaching that you believe.

This might help: when I went through RCIA, I was told by a very wise priest that I needed to study what was contained in the Creed and the Articles of Faith and a few other things because when I stood up in front of the Congregation at that Easter Vigil I was going to be swearing to God and His Church that I believed with all my heart everything that was required of me to believe and was thereafter responsible before God for knowing and assenting to all that I was supposed to believe. I greatly feared God and what sin I would be committing if I lied or faked it. I really was weak in the knees over this. I’ve found out that it was a grace God gave me. I literally begged God to help me believe all I was supposed to so I wouldn’t be lying to Him that night. it was also told to me that on Sundays when I say the Creed and give my AMEN at the conclusion of it, I am once again affirming that initial assent to His Will and His Law and His Church. If I don’t believe I shouldn’t say AMEN but should hold back till I can say AMEN with all my heart and strength. I was told it would be a big sin to only give lip service to these great truths and the sin would be greater because I was swearing to God that night. These are my Baptismal promises. I got to swear to God for the first time in my life and I didn’t take the Lord’s name in vain that night. See what I mean?

Oh well, Sorry for the little rant, but I hope this helps and I’ve said it before I’m really no expert in anything but French fries with ketchup. I wish some of my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ could be blessed the way I was when I came into the Church with conversion.

Glenda

Thanks for sharing your experience, I think it’s great that people can find God and the Church in their adult years. As a cradle Catholic my experience is that we are all taught the same teaching but we will interpret it differently from each other. Some will stay with the faith, others will reject it. When you are born into it, you know no other, until we grow and learn from experience of life with other people and their faith.
It must be a totally different experience to want to be brought into the faith. Not that I’m saying I or anyone isn’t glad to be baptised into Christ as a baby, I just think when we are searching spirituality as adults, all our initiations have been done when some of us really didn’t understand or appreciate what they actually meant. So to do this as an adult would be a totally different experience, but a highly strong, meaningful one.

Can I ask, do you ever doubt? Someone once said to me, if there isn’t a little doubt about knowing all, then there can’t be anymore room for improvement. Or something like that…

 

[glendab]

Hello Simple. Thanks for the response.

Thanks for sharing your experience, I think it’s great that people can find God and the Church in their adult years. As a cradle Catholic my experience is that we are all taught the same teaching but we will interpret it differently from each other. Some will stay with the faith, others will reject it. When you are born into it, you know no other, until we grow and learn from experience of life with other people and their faith.
It must be a totally different experience to want to be brought into the faith. Not that I’m saying I or anyone isn’t glad to be baptised into Christ as a baby, I just think when we are searching spirituality as adults, all our initiations have been done when some of us really didn’t understand or appreciate what they actually meant. So to do this as an adult would be a totally different experience, but a highly strong, meaningful one.

Can I ask, do you ever doubt? Someone once said to me, if there isn’t a little doubt about knowing all, then there can’t be anymore room for improvement. Or something like that…

Do I ever doubt? Well for the purpose of this particular thread, I have no doubt that I am correct in my perspective of the question asked. I don’t believe there is an “unconditional love of God” for me. If it gets used in a sentence and means anything more than mere sentiment or expostulation about the enormity of God’s love then it does fall into the Protestant theological realm. They mean much more than a sentiment by it’s expression. I also think that many Catholics have either knowingly or unknowingly adopted Protestant errors into their beliefs. I’m wary of doing so. I shared my concern here at CAF because it seemed appropriate. I sincerely hope it has given some pause to reflect on the topic of their love for God and what they expect His love for them to do for them.

Doubts on the other hand were about all I had before becoming Catholic. I realized the limits of my knowledge of God and His doings and only knew I knew nothing. That’s when I decided to learn all I could about God. I love Him and want to know Him better. When you love someone, you want to know all about them. I don’t know if you’re married but that is what many go through when they meet that special someone - they can’t get enough of them or knowledge of them. Only for me it is a little different - the person I fell in love with is God and since I’m a widow I’m free to explore that relationship a little differently. Perhaps that is the reason I take issue with how folks love God at all. I’m not sure about that. Could be basic psychology. Who knows? I concern myself with the quality of my love for God because I want it to be pure. Since being Baptized I have grown, I know more about God and my relationship with Him has deepened. I am not the same person that met the waters of Baptism all those years ago. If I hadn’t any doubts about God and my need for Him in my life way back when, I never would’ve asked the right questions of Him and become a Catholic. Some doubts are healthy and lead you on to higher ground. Others need correction. Does this help?

I’ve always had a natural curiosity about stuff and asked hundreds of questions of my mom and dad to the point of annoyance. Are these doubts as the Church would define doubt? No. And what I find out I don’t know by asking questions I try to remedy by learning more. I read a lot. Doubts of a negative variety get expelled rapidly that way.

Glenda

P.S. I recommend you eat some French Fries with Ketchup instead of vinegar! Might end a doubt or two.

 

[clem456]

A couple of different issues are confused here.

God’s unchanging nature
Man’s response to or rejection of God through free will
Redemption offered to all people through Jesus Christ
Salvation attained by some through Jesus Christ.

The story of Genesis that Granny brought up earlier is instructive.
God provides everything man needs out of love.
Man’s response is to want more. Rather than trust God’s loving provision, man wishes to take his fate to himself. What God offers is not enough, noooo, man wants “the knowledge of good and evil” which only belongs to the unchanging God. Man thinks he can be God. Man does not respect who God is, he takes onto himself that which only belongs to God. Sin enters the world by man putting himself above God’s love. Pride.

Man suffers consequences. But God, who is yet unchanged by man’s selfish pride, still loves man. God offers us redemption through the gift of himself, in Jesus Christ, despite our rejection of him then and now. He offers this love -without merit, without condition,- completely gratuitously, to all men of all time.

He does this even though we have already rejected him. He knows how we behave. God is not stupid. He knows his son will be rejected. Man utterly fails to satisfy conditions, yet he still loves us by giving his infinitely good self to we, who are infinitely unworthy. God has not changed from being love itself.

Man responds to God’s love in various ways to attain **salvation **, or not.
Some accept their need for God’s gratuitous initiative and cast themselves onto his mercy. Some believe they can attain salvation through the knowledge of good and evil, like Adam and Eve believed. Man is still pride and God is still unchanged. He is love.

 

[clem456]

What the Catholic Church believes in regard to the source of our salvation (since that topic is being mixed in here):
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the **free and undeserved **help that **God gives us to respond to **his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism.** It is in us the source **of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51
2002 **God’s free initiative **demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

2003 Grace is **first and foremost the gift of the Spirit **who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us **to collaborate in **the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church.
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’"58

It is Catholic teaching that

2022 The **divine initiative **in the work of grace **precedes, prepares, and elicits **the free response of man

This initiative is without merit and conditions but rather of God’s free initiative.
Fr Serpa catholic.com/quickquestions/is-gods-unconditional-love-without-limit :

God does love us unconditionally in that he loves us even in our sins. But he cannot love our sins. He cannot love evil. He will always forgive us if we repent. To love him back, we must be free to choose to love him or not. Love cannot be programmed or forced. To love him is the greatest thing we can do for ourselves. But we can choose to not love him. Our choice to not love him does not diminish his unconditional love. But it certainly diminishes ours!

Thank God for good catechesis!

A real life example to illustrate the difference in the protestant and Catholic approaches:
Catholicism honors Mary the Mother of God, who is the only human next to Jesus himself who was sinless. Mary is not addressed by the angel of God as “O great satisfier of conditions”, she is called in the Greek “Kecharitomene”, “Full of Grace”. This word is not given it’s full interpretation in Protestant theology which likes to call her the watered down “Favored One”. But in Catholicism we honor Mary as the angel identifies her. And thus, as always, Mary points to God’s grace, not her own merits. I hope we can imitate Mary’s respect for God.

 

[clem456]

Pope Benedict’s Deus Caritas Est:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

INTRODUCTION

1. “God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 Jn 4:16). These words from the First Letter of John express with remarkable clarity the heart of the Christian faith: the Christian image of God and the resulting image of mankind and its destiny. In the same verse, Saint John also offers a kind of summary of the Christian life: “We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us”.

We have come to believe in God’s love: in these words the Christian can express the fundamental decision of his life. Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction. Saint John’s Gospel describes that event in these words: “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should … have eternal life” (3:16). In acknowledging the centrality of love, Christian faith has retained the core of Israel’s faith, while at the same time giving it new depth and breadth. The pious Jew prayed daily the words of the Book of Deuteronomy which expressed the heart of his existence: “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your might” (6:4-5). Jesus united into a single precept this commandment of love for God and the commandment of love for neighbour found in the Book of Leviticus: “You shall love your neighbour as yourself” (19:18; cf. Mk 12:29-31). Since God has first loved us (cf. 1 Jn 4:10), love is now no longer a mere “command”; it is the response to the gift of love with which God draws near to us.

In a world where the name of God is sometimes associated with vengeance or even a duty of hatred and violence, this message is both timely and significant. For this reason, I wish in my first Encyclical to speak of **the love which God lavishes upon us and which we in turn must share with others. **
…
Anyone who wishes to give love **must also receive love **as a gift. Certainly, as the Lord tells us, one can become a source from which rivers of living water flow (cf. Jn 7:37-38). Yet to become such a source, one must constantly drink anew from the original source, which is Jesus Christ, from whose pierced heart flows the love of God (cf. Jn 19:34).
The history of the love-relationship between God and Israel consists, at the deepest level, in the fact that he gives her the Torah, thereby opening Israel’s eyes to man’s true nature and showing her the path leading to true humanism. It consists in the fact that man, through a life of fidelity to the one God, **comes to experience himself as **loved by God,
…
10. We have seen that God’s eros for man is also totally agape. This is not only because it is bestowed in a completely gratuitous manner, without any previous merit, but also because it is love which forgives. Hosea above all shows us that this agape dimension of God’s love for man goes far beyond the aspect of gratuity. Israel has committed “adultery” and has broken the covenant; God should judge and repudiate her. It is precisely at this point that God is revealed to be God and not man: “How can I give you up, O Ephraim! How can I hand you over, O Israel! … My heart recoils within me, my compassion grows warm and tender. I will not execute my fierce anger, I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst” (Hos 11:8-9). God’s passionate love for his people—for humanity—is at the same time a forgiving love. It is so great that it turns God against himself, his love against his justice. Here Christians can see a dim prefigurement of the mystery of the Cross: so great is God’s love for man that by becoming man he follows him even into death, and so reconciles justice and love.
…
**God’s way of loving **becomes the measure of human love
…
His death on the Cross is the culmination of that turning of God against himself in which **he gives himself **in order to raise man up and save him. This is love in its most radical form. By contemplating the pierced side of Christ (cf. 19:37), we can understand the starting-point of this Encyclical Letter: “God is love” (1 Jn 4:8). It is there that this truth can be contemplated. It is from there that our definition of love must begin. In this contemplation the Christian discovers the path along which his life and love must move.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

This is not church teaching, but it is a thought to ponder on…

Does the forgiveness of sins hang and depend on the greatest commandments?

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments; this would have been the greatest way he could respond to each and every situation in his life. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself, Judas who betrayed him, the soldiers who nailed him to the cross? Jesus was an innocent man, with the power and authority to ask God for justice. But it seems that nothing, and no one should stand in the way of Jesus loving all his neighbours as he loved himself, and we know that he prayed on the cross, ‘forgive them Father’ We have no proof as to who Jesus was referring to.

It seems that every time Jesus suffered injustice here on Earth, he forgave, in order that he should continue to love the sinners as he loved himself. If Jesus can forgive the people who had him killed, then it should give us hope that we can be forgiven also. What kind of a burden do we place on Jesus with our sins?

After his resurrection does the divine nature of Jesus, follow his human nature? When Jesus ascended into heaven, does Jesus still forgive us, in order that he should continue to love each and every one of us as he loves himself?

Can Jesus love us more than he loves himself?

 

[clem456]

John Paul 2 TERTIO MILLENNIO ADVENIENTE

“This is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (Jn 17:3). The whole of the Christian life is like a great pilgrimage to the house of the Father, whose unconditional love for every human creature, and in particular for the “prodigal son” (cf. Lk 15:11-32), we discover anew each day. This pilgrimage takes place in the heart of each person, extends to the believing community and then reaches to the whole of humanity
…
It will therefore be necessary, especially during this year, to emphasize the theological virtue of charity, recalling the significant and lapidary words of the First Letter of John: “God is love” (4:8,16). Charity, in its twofold reality as love of God and neighbour is the summing up of the moral life of the believer. It has in God its source and its goal.

 

[glendab]

Clem, why do you keep posting to this thread if you cannot answer my questions?

Pope Benedict’s Deus Caritas Est:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

Glenda

 

[clem456]

Clem, why do you keep posting to this thread if you cannot answer my questions?

Glenda

CAF is a public forum, I’m a member, and visitors should receive good Catholic teaching.

Please put me on your ignore list.
thank you and God Bless.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

There is no reason why Jesus would love conditionally. However, even when he loves, he seeks the return of that love. If we do not return it, we have cast ourselves outside his presence. It is not that Jesus ceases to love us, but that we have made our will clear: we do not want to be in his presence. We love our sins more than we love him.

 

[Tom_Baum]

As one of the prayers, that I believe is at every Mass says, “Lord, have Mercy on us ALL”.

I thank You for Your Mercy and I thank You for the prayer.

 

[clem456]

Benedict makes an eloquent statement about the nature of God’s love which gives the Catholic perspective a sense of urgency and importance in daily living. God’s love makes it possible to love others as he loves us. Without his love, our love for others is impoverished. So it is important we understand God’s love as the Church does.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

Love of God and love of neighbour

…
17. True, no one has ever seen God as he is. And yet God is not totally invisible to us; he does not remain completely inaccessible. God loved us first, says the Letter of John quoted above (cf. 4:10), and this love of God has appeared in our midst. He has become visible in as much as he “has sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him” (1 Jn 4:9)
…
In the Church’s Liturgy, in her prayer, in the living community of believers, we experience the love of God, we perceive his presence and we thus learn to recognize that presence in our daily lives. He has loved us first and he continues to do so; we too, then, can respond with love. God does not demand of us a feeling which we ourselves are incapable of producing. He loves us, he makes us see and experience his love, and since he has “loved us first”, love can also blossom as a response within us.

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18. Love of neighbour is thus shown to be possible in the way proclaimed by the Bible, by Jesus. It consists in the very fact that, in God and with God, I love even the person whom I do not like or even know. This can only take place on the basis of an intimate encounter with God, an encounter which has become a communion of will, even affecting my feelings. Then I learn to look on this other person not simply with my eyes and my feelings, but from the perspective of Jesus Christ. His friend is my friend. Going beyond exterior appearances, I perceive in others an interior desire for a sign of love, of concern. This I can offer them not only through the organizations intended for such purposes, accepting it perhaps as a political necessity. Seeing with the eyes of Christ, I can give to others much more than their outward necessities; I can give them the look of love which they crave. Here we see the necessary interplay between love of God and love of neighbour which the First Letter of John speaks of with such insistence. If I have no contact whatsoever with God in my life, then I cannot see in the other anything more than the other, and I am incapable of seeing in him the image of God. But if in my life I fail completely to heed others, solely out of a desire to be “devout” and to perform my “religious duties”, then my relationship with God will also grow arid. It becomes merely “proper”, but loveless. Only my readiness to encounter my neighbour and to show him love makes me sensitive to God as well. Only if I serve my neighbour can my eyes be opened to what God does for me and how much he loves me.
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Love of God and love of neighbour are thus inseparable, they form a single commandment. But both live from the love of God who has loved us first. No longer is it a question, then, of a “commandment” imposed from without and calling for the impossible, but rather of a freely-bestowed experience of love from within, a love which by its very nature must then be shared with others. Love grows through love. Love is “divine” because it comes from God and unites us to God; through this unifying process it makes us a “we” which transcends our divisions and makes us one, until in the end God is “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28).

 

[simpleas]

Hello Simple. Thanks for the response.

Do I ever doubt? Well for the purpose of this particular thread, I have no doubt that I am correct in my perspective of the question asked. I don’t believe there is an “unconditional love of God” for me. If it gets used in a sentence and means anything more than mere sentiment or expostulation about the enormity of God’s love then it does fall into the Protestant theological realm. They mean much more than a sentiment by it’s expression. I also think that many Catholics have either knowingly or unknowingly adopted Protestant errors into their beliefs. I’m wary of doing so. I shared my concern here at CAF because it seemed appropriate. I sincerely hope it has given some pause to reflect on the topic of their love for God and what they expect His love for them to do for them.

Doubts on the other hand were about all I had before becoming Catholic. I realized the limits of my knowledge of God and His doings and only knew I knew nothing. That’s when I decided to learn all I could about God. I love Him and want to know Him better. When you love someone, you want to know all about them. I don’t know if you’re married but that is what many go through when they meet that special someone - they can’t get enough of them or knowledge of them. Only for me it is a little different - the person I fell in love with is God and since I’m a widow I’m free to explore that relationship a little differently. Perhaps that is the reason I take issue with how folks love God at all. I’m not sure about that. Could be basic psychology. Who knows? I concern myself with the quality of my love for God because I want it to be pure. Since being Baptized I have grown, I know more about God and my relationship with Him has deepened. I am not the same person that met the waters of Baptism all those years ago. If I hadn’t any doubts about God and my need for Him in my life way back when, I never would’ve asked the right questions of Him and become a Catholic. Some doubts are healthy and lead you on to higher ground. Others need correction. Does this help?

I’ve always had a natural curiosity about stuff and asked hundreds of questions of my mom and dad to the point of annoyance. Are these doubts as the Church would define doubt? No. And what I find out I don’t know by asking questions I try to remedy by learning more. I read a lot. Doubts of a negative variety get expelled rapidly that way.

Glenda

P.S. I recommend you eat some French Fries with Ketchup instead of vinegar! Might end a doubt or two.

Thanks.

*Some doubts are healthy and lead you on to higher ground. Others need correction. Does this help? *

Totally with you there, you found your connection with God, though your doubts about him, so the question’s started. I don’t believe the question’s ever really cease, but if they are leading toward God, the more the better!

I’m not sure how you believe that thinking God loves us unconditionally is a Protestant way of thinking? Clem has posted lots of quotes were God’s love is referred to as unconditional.
Can we think “God will only love me if I do not sin?” Maybe some can, I never thought God wouldn’t love me, he always loves, but does it mean he loves us more when we repent? No because his love is unchanging…

Ps. I eat fries with salt n vinegar n ketchup!