Unconditional love of God?

[grannymh]

I try and understand love through the greatest commandments, Jesus would have lived by them, as he spent his time on Earth. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself? Judas who betrayed him, the soldiers who nailed him to the cross.

We know Jesus prayed on the cross, forgive them father,

It seems that nothing should stand in the way of the greatest commandments, no one can do anything greater.

To answer the question, “But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself?”

Jesus is the Divine Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Therefore, He loved all people as God loves all people. Jesus is not two people, a God and a human. Jesus is One Person Who has two natures. This union of the divine and human natures in one Divine Person is known as the Hypostatic Union. (CCC, True God and True Man, paragraphs 464-483)

Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[Eric_Hyom]

grannymh;1
To answer the question, “But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself?”

But did Jesus live by these commandments, when he spent his time on Earth?

 

[grannymh]

But did Jesus live by these commandments, when he spent his time on Earth?

Yes.

 

[glendab]

Hello everyone. I still haven’t been convinced that there is anything called “unconditional” love of God for me that is a requirement of my faith as a Catholic though a few have tried to show me it exists as they understand it.

It is my opinion that there is a loving God in Heaven who looks down on all He made and ever since He made it it has been ruled by conditions whether those conditions are the laws that keep the stars fixed in their orbits or the tides flowing on the sands of the seashore. Natural laws. Man himself was given conditions to live by in the garden of Eden and those conditions were: to not eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil and God loved them while they were there and even called it very good, conditions and all. But those conditions were in reality a loving gift from God. God’s love for them didn’t prevent Him from cursing them when they failed to live up to conditions. And sin and death entered the world.

It is also my opinion that there is a Hell where sinners go and that there is no love there anymore because God being love isn’t there so those who go there are no longer loved by God although their souls are tormented for all of Eternity as a measure of God’s justice.

It is also my opinion that we are supposed to live by conditions in this life so as to go to Heaven and experience the fullness of God’s love for us for all of Eternity. Without any conditions, God cannot apply His Son’s Redeeming works to our lives. We are governed by rules. There are rules for everything. There are the Ten Commandments and the Precepts of the Church, the Articles of Faith and the Creed to which we give our “Amen” each Sunday. We agree to live by the conditions that God lays down - the Law. Jesus said He didn’t come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. It takes some understanding of the basics to see what that means. His death on a Cross paid our debt IF we accept it. That is the condition. We need to do as St. John the Baptist said and repent. Without sorrow for sin it cannot be forgiven, which if God could be made sad that would do it because if you have no sorrow God cannot forgive you. He accepts the conditions He gave us. God would love to save us but we have to accept His conditions.

If you think God loves unconditionally, that is fine for you. But I prefer the admonition in Scripture that says: This is the love of God that we keep His Commandments. And His Commandments are not burdensome.

I do not believe that the love of God is what saves me.

I do however believe that God loves me, and that places an obligation upon me to keep His Law, to live by His conditions.

I hope that some have seen my point. I hope you look at how well you actually express your love for God and seeing a shortfall, try to improve it. You cannot love God as He wills perfectly without His help and if you never look to see if you are deficient in your love for God you will never try to love Him better than you do right now. Most focus on the love God has for them but love without discipline is not love. He chastises the son He loves. Only in Mary’s heart was there the love for God that should be. We cannot love like that. I think if we accept the Law, the conditions God places on us in our hearts He is pleased. He knows we have given our will over to His by doing so, but if you only focus on His love for you and what is does for you, you’ll never get there.

Thanks for all the replies. I had no idea this silly question would get so much attention.

It is still my opinion that if you use the term “unconditional” to describe God’s love, hopefully you don’t mean He loves *without the Law *because He cannot nor does He intend to do so. Hopefully you only use the word as a sentiment and not some sort of doctrinal statement.

Glenda

 

[Eric_Hyom]

glendab;

It is still my opinion that if you use the term “unconditional” to describe God’s love, hopefully you don’t mean He loves *without the Law *because He cannot nor does He intend to do so.

But all the law hangs and depends on the greatest commandments. Can God possibly love us as he loves himself?

The fear of God is the start of wisdom.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Two statements:

1. God Is Love.
2. God is a loving God.

On the surface, they may sound quite similiar, yet they are worlds apart.

Love being God’s Very Being is not the same as Love being an attribute of God, not even close.

The “fact” that God Is a Being of Love, as opposed to Love being an attribute of God, is beyond our human ability to conceive of and I believe that only God can reveal this “Truth”.

 

[OneSheep]

I try and understand love through the greatest commandments, Jesus would have lived by them, as he spent his time on Earth. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself? Judas who betrayed him, the soldiers who nailed him to the cross.

We know Jesus prayed on the cross, forgive them father,

It seems that nothing should stand in the way of the greatest commandments, no one can do anything greater.

Yes, nothing stands in the way of love. That is what this thread is about.

 

[mattdantuono]

Hello friends.

Ok, here is how I see it.

Love, in its deepest and truest sense, is the desire for the good of the other. The greatest good we can have is true happiness, which is perfect communion with God Himself. So, God desires that we have this true happiness which is perfect communion with Himself. Therefore, God loves us.

This love is unconditional because God desires this greatest good for us no matter what we do. He always reaches out his hand to us.

The only thing in the entire universe that can keep us from this love is ourselves, our own choice to not receive this love. Because we have free will, we can choose to not receive this love and walk away from God. God cannot force this good on us, we must freely choose it. But, we can also freely reject it. In that case, God does not look very loving, even though He is.

 

[mattdantuono]

God would love to save us but we have to accept His conditions.

If you think God loves unconditionally, that is fine for you. But I prefer the admonition in Scripture that says: This is the love of God that we keep His Commandments. And His Commandments are not burdensome.

I do not believe that the love of God is what saves me.

I do however believe that God loves me, and that places an obligation upon me to keep His Law, to live by His conditions.

Glenda,

Do you think you can follow the law perfectly? If not, how perfectly do you have to follow it in order to get to Heaven?

Also, God is not separate from his creation. Anything that exists derives its existence from the love of God, His willing it into being, including those in Hell. Without God there is no existence. God is omniscient, so He has no forgotten them. They have just freely chosen against God.

Throughout this thread I have wondered what your idea of love is, and why you don’t see it as unconditional in God. How do you define “love”?

 

[Tom_Baum]

mattdantuono

You wrote, “Love, in its deepest and truest sense, is the desire for the good of the other.”

And then, “This love is unconditional because God desires this greatest good for us no matter what we do. He always reaches out his hand to us.”

And also, “The only thing in the entire universe that can keep us from this love is ourselves, our own choice to not receive this love. Because we have free will, we can choose to not receive this love and walk away from God. God cannot force this good on us, we must freely choose it. But, we can also freely reject it. In that case, God does not look very loving, even though He is.”

Since we are the only thing that can get in the way of God, as you put it, and I would say that that would be during our lifetime since that would be when our “free will” is operative, wouldn’t you say?

Why would God’s ability to work upon us out of LOVE after our death and probably with our death the end of our “free will”, not be possible?

God Is the God of the Living and since God “conquered” death, I suppose that we could say that God is the God of ALL, living and dead, captive and free, don’t you think?

Just because we don’t know all of the details, doesn’t mean that God doesn’t have a catholic Plan.

 

[mikekle]

mattdantuono

You wrote, “Love, in its deepest and truest sense, is the desire for the good of the other.”

And then, “This love is unconditional because God desires this greatest good for us no matter what we do. He always reaches out his hand to us.”

And also, “The only thing in the entire universe that can keep us from this love is ourselves, our own choice to not receive this love. Because we have free will, we can choose to not receive this love and walk away from God. God cannot force this good on us, we must freely choose it. But, we can also freely reject it. In that case, God does not look very loving, even though He is.”

Since we are the only thing that can get in the way of God, as you put it, and I would say that that would be during our lifetime since that would be when our “free will” is operative, wouldn’t you say?

Why would God’s ability to work upon us out of LOVE after our death and probably with our death the end of our “free will”, not be possible?

God Is the God of the Living and since God “conquered” death, I suppose that we could say that God is the God of ALL, living and dead, captive and free, don’t you think?

Just because we don’t know all of the details, doesn’t mean that God doesn’t have a catholic Plan.

The question is…Does our free will continue on after death? IMO, it does, In a sense our souls are immortal, so it seems logical to me, our free will would be ours to use at any time.

What about the person who ends up in hell and then has a change of heart and calls out to God for salvation? Why would his love only be available to us when we are alive ( in terms of our physical bodies)…our souls are still alive after our bodily death, so why would our free will only apply to our bodies?

Our time on earth is fairly short compared to eternity, I think its wrong to think God only offers us our free will during this 70-100 yr time frame.

 

[glendab]

Hello Matt. Thanks for the reply.

Glenda,

Do you think you can follow the law perfectly? If not, how perfectly do you have to follow it in order to get to Heaven?

Also, God is not separate from his creation. Anything that exists derives its existence from the love of God, His willing it into being, including those in Hell. Without God there is no existence. God is omniscient, so He has no forgotten them. They have just freely chosen against God.

Throughout this thread I have wondered what your idea of love is, and why you don’t see it as unconditional in God. How do you define “love”?

Question one: No, I don’t.
Question two: God will determine that and how quickly via Purgatory. I’ve got some comin’ how about you? But I’d say rejecting His Law, His conditions is not going to help you get there at all.

Question three which isn’t a question but statement of your beliefs about those in Hell. This is your opinion. Guess what? The Church is correct. In Hell they’ve been forgotten by God and that will never change. Ever. It is Eternal.

Question four: I don’t see how you can misunderstand me. Unless you haven’t really read what I’ve written throughout this thread. That would explain it. I’ve been very thorough in explaining myself, although I haven’t said all I could in defense of my position.

Question five: I don’t define love; the dictionary is sufficient for this thread.

Does this help you understand my points? I hope so and thanks again fro your reply.

Glenda

 

[clem456]

The question is…Does our free will continue on after death? IMO, it does, In a sense our souls are immortal, so it seems logical to me, our free will would be ours to use at any time.

What about the person who ends up in hell and then has a change of heart and calls out to God for salvation? Why would his love only be available to us when we are alive ( in terms of our physical bodies)…our souls are still alive after our bodily death, so why would our free will only apply to our bodies?

Our time on earth is fairly short compared to eternity, I think its wrong to think God only offers us our free will during this 70-100 yr time frame.

What does it mean to be created human, by God?
We are created a unity of body and soul, and enter into a specific time and physical space, “the world”. In creating us fully human, God loves us in this way, giving us dominion over “the world”. We are not made to drift through life as mere spirits without reference to time and the physical world.
Jesus, who became fully human, also came into the world “in the fullness of time”.

So, in honoring our humanity out of love, God respects our presence and activity in the world. This is the existence we are given. Our free will is given us to respond to that love, in the world we live in.

Being human means something specific.

 

[clem456]

A good definition of love is Aquinas’ “to love is to will the good of the other”.

God’s will is perfect, so his love is revealed to be perfect, from all eternity to all eternity, without fail.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a1.htm

I. GOD REVEALS HIS “PLAN OF LOVING GOODNESS”

51 “It pleased God, in his goodness and wisdom, to reveal himself and to make known the mystery of **his will. His will was that men should have access to the Father, through Christ, the Word made flesh, in the Holy Spirit, and thus become sharers in the divine nature.”**2

52 God, who “dwells in unapproachable light”, wants to communicate his own divine life to the men he freely created, in order to adopt them as his sons in his only-begotten Son.3 By revealing himself God wishes to make them capable of responding to him, and of knowing him and of loving him far beyond their own natural capacity.

 

[Usagi]

Glenda,

Will you acknowledge that the Catholics in this thread who are arguing in favor of God’s unconditional love are not doing so because they have fallen into the error of OSAS or forgiveness without repentance and (some attempt at) obedience?

One can believe that God loves unconditionally without denying the importance of following God’s laws or disbelieving the teaching on Hell. What we are defending is not laxity or presumption, but simply the assertion that no matter what we do , God does not stop loving us (though He may certainly stop approving of our behavior and He does not force grace upon anyone). Calling God’s love unconditional is not to reject the possibility of mortal sin or to believe in universal salvation, only that whatever rejection and lack of love the unrepentant or the damned experience is going from them to God, not coming from God to them.

To my mind, you are conflating love with approval and salvation. The latter two require a particular response on our part (though, strictly speaking, even our ability to respond is given to us by God out of His love); the first, though, is present throughout our existence whether or not we recognize or appreciate it.

Usagi

 

[Tom_Baum]

The question is…Does our free will continue on after death? IMO, it does, In a sense our souls are immortal, so it seems logical to me, our free will would be ours to use at any time.

What about the person who ends up in hell and then has a change of heart and calls out to God for salvation? Why would his love only be available to us when we are alive ( in terms of our physical bodies)…our souls are still alive after our bodily death, so why would our free will only apply to our bodies?

Our time on earth is fairly short compared to eternity, I think its wrong to think God only offers us our free will during this 70-100 yr time frame.

I suppose that I look at “free will” from a humanly, physical point of view in that we use it to do and not do physical things while we have “use”, so to speak, of our physical bodies.

However, I, most definitely, think/believe that we can and will have “a change of heart and call(s) out to God for salvation”.

As I have said before, if one were to wake up in hell, so to speak, one will come to the realization that not only did one put themself there and have no one else to blame but that they built it themself.

Hell is not just “seeing” our sins thru the “Eyes”, so to speak, of Pure Love but it is also seeing the ramifications of our sins thru these “Eyes”.

Hell is NOT separation from God, spiritual death is.

As It is written, “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It (Jesus’s Church)”, the “mission” of Jesus’s Church, with the netherworld being hell and spiritual death.

Some “see” their sins before death, some don’t.

Some “see” their sins before someone else points them out to them, some don’t, David is an example of this.

God gives up on NO ONE and our physical death is NOT an impediment to God having HIs Plan, which God has had since before creation, coming to Fruition.

We may not “know” all of the “details” of God’s Plan but we have been told that it is “God’s Will that ALL be saved…” so we have been told some of God’s Plan, we have also been asked to pray for God’s Plan, “…Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in heaven…”.

 

[glendab]

Hello Usagi. Thanks for the reply.

Glenda,

Will you acknowledge that the Catholics in this thread who are arguing in favor of God’s unconditional love are not doing so because they have fallen into the error of OSAS or forgiveness without repentance and (some attempt at) obedience?

One can believe that God loves unconditionally without denying the importance of following God’s laws or disbelieving the teaching on Hell. What we are defending is not laxity or presumption, but simply the assertion that no matter what we do , God does not stop loving us (though He may certainly stop approving of our behavior and He does not force grace upon anyone). Calling God’s love unconditional is not to reject the possibility of mortal sin or to believe in universal salvation, only that whatever rejection and lack of love the unrepentant or the damned experience is going from them to God, not coming from God to them.

To my mind, you are conflating love with approval and salvation. The latter two require a particular response on our part (though, strictly speaking, even our ability to respond is given to us by God out of His love); the first, though, is present throughout our existence whether or not we recognize or appreciate it.

Usagi

I really feel no need to acknowledge anything. You state that “one can believe that God loves them unconditionally…” to which I reply that is fine, but I don’t. I agree that one can believe one is loved by God unconditionally. I choose not to. It isn’t a part of Catholic teaching and this is where I think the trouble comes from.

Why can God not just love me? Why is it so important for me to accept and believe in His **unconditional **love? Isn’t God’s love sufficient? Does the qualifier “unconditional” have to be a part of the equation? THAT is where the discussion went. No one has answered those questions yet even when I asked more than once.

There are those who feel God’s love must be believed in** unconditionally **and assert this is authentic Catholic teaching. I say that is wrong and that is where we’ve deviated. And if this is so, then that says it isn’t just a sentiment or adverb we’re discussing anymore but an actual belief. It isn’t found in the Creed nor the Precepts nor the Bible nor the Articles nor can I find anywhere any Church Fathers expostulating on the UNCONDITIONAL love of God. Why is that? Because it isn’t Church teaching.

Yes, there is plenty of teaching on God’s love. I know that. But that teaching is misrepresented if they expect it includes the belief in an unconditional love of God.

Usagi, how can I show you the difference between what some uses in a sentence of a word modify the image expressed and what we are required to believe and which is a part of definitive Church teaching? Perhaps an example: I think the shirt he is wearing is red. I think the shirt he is wearing is really red. I think the shirt he is wearing is vivid, electrifying and passionately red! I don’t see how anyone else can call it anything less than vivid, electric and passionate and anyone who says anything less then vivid, electrifying and passionate red is not seeing correctly.

In the first sentence I am stating a fact. God is love/the shirt is red. In the second sentence I’ve stated that the shirt is still red, but it effects my sight differently and I want you to understand that it is more than red, that it is really red. God really loves/ the shirt is really red. But if I insist that the shirt is enhanced or changed or can only be seen as a specific type of red, vivid, electrifying and passionate, I have not only distorted the image of the red shirt but I’ve limited the way in which the shirt can be spoken of. Two birds with one stone. I hope this shows what I’m getting at.

Usagi, I hope you see my points. I do believe God loves me and that is all that is really necessary.

Glenda

 

[Tom_Baum]

Glenda,

Will you acknowledge that the Catholics in this thread who are arguing in favor of God’s unconditional love are not doing so because they have fallen into the error of OSAS or forgiveness without repentance and (some attempt at) obedience?

One can believe that God loves unconditionally without denying the importance of following God’s laws or disbelieving the teaching on Hell. What we are defending is not laxity or presumption, but simply the assertion that no matter what we do , God does not stop loving us (though He may certainly stop approving of our behavior and He does not force grace upon anyone). Calling God’s love unconditional is not to reject the possibility of mortal sin or to believe in universal salvation, only that whatever rejection and lack of love the unrepentant or the damned experience is going from them to God, not coming from God to them.

To my mind, you are conflating love with approval and salvation. The latter two require a particular response on our part (though, strictly speaking, even our ability to respond is given to us by God out of His love); the first, though, is present throughout our existence whether or not we recognize or appreciate it.

Usagi

As far as God’s Love being “unconditional”, since God Is a Being of Love, as opposed to Love being an attribute of God, ( God Is, Love Is), same thing.

What people seem to not realize is that even tho Love (God) does not change, is not conditional, how LOVE affects the person, so to speak, can be quite different in that this LOVE can be totally caressing in a way beyond our human ability to conceive or totally devastating beyond our human ability to comprehend, ever heard the statement “Consuming Fire of Love”?

This is why God came up with a Plan even before creation.

So many people seem to think that they have God “all figured out”, we (humans) do like to put God in a “box” and if we make this “box” the best that we think we are capable of than we think that this is fine and that we are doing God and the rest of humanity a favor, not even close.

“My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts”, could be God’s Way of telling us that the more we figure it out, the farther we get from knowing anything about God beyond God’s Name.

God Is Love, God cares, does this give you or anyone else that may read this a “hint” at what God was trying to get thru to us?

I have heard it said and I do not know if it is true or not but John, the Apostle, in his old age would get up to give a sermon, homily or whatever one wishes to call it and say one word and then sit down and that word was LOVE, something worth pondering, don’t you think?

 

[mattdantuono]

mattdantuono

You wrote, “Love, in its deepest and truest sense, is the desire for the good of the other.”

And then, “This love is unconditional because God desires this greatest good for us no matter what we do. He always reaches out his hand to us.”

And also, “The only thing in the entire universe that can keep us from this love is ourselves, our own choice to not receive this love. Because we have free will, we can choose to not receive this love and walk away from God. God cannot force this good on us, we must freely choose it. But, we can also freely reject it. In that case, God does not look very loving, even though He is.”

Since we are the only thing that can get in the way of God, as you put it, and I would say that that would be during our lifetime since that would be when our “free will” is operative, wouldn’t you say?

Why would God’s ability to work upon us out of LOVE after our death and probably with our death the end of our “free will”, not be possible?

God Is the God of the Living and since God “conquered” death, I suppose that we could say that God is the God of ALL, living and dead, captive and free, don’t you think?

Just because we don’t know all of the details, doesn’t mean that God doesn’t have a catholic Plan.

Hello friend. I agree with that last statement. Just because we don’t know the details, it does not mean that doesn’t have a plan.

I think there is a sense in which we can say that God is the God of all. Those in Hell have chosen to serve some other god. If God were not God to them, they would cease to exist, since nothing exists that does not derive its very existence from Him.

The main point, I think, that you were building towards, was the question of free will after death. Our free will comes from the fact that we have minds, that we have the ability to weigh options and make choices. Without a mind, we are not able to make judgements and choices.

We exercise free will in this life based on what we have learned, by what has come to us through our physical senses and been abstracted by our intellects. Due to our human frailty, our ideas are not always correct, and so we grow in understanding, change our minds, and form new beliefs and intentions. These mental states affect our will, and our choices change as well, including our orientation towards God, as much as He has been revealed to us and as much as we recognize us. As a soul-body unity, we see things one aspect at a time.

Once the soul is separated from the body, then we see as pure spirits do; we see all aspects of a thing. We perceive God in that moment according to the condition and orientation of our souls. Someone who has sought God is directed towards Him, someone who has consciously run from God is directed away from Him. Since all earthly learning stops, so too is the will fixed in its orientation on the moment of death. Choices are made in that state forever, according to the nature of pure spirits. The will is fixed in the absence of its union with a body.

On this subject, I recommend “Life Everlasting” by Garrigou-LaGrange.

However, there is also no guarantee that there is anyone in Hell. For all we know, everyone was oriented just enough to make it to Heaven. That much is not for us to judge.

 

[mattdantuono]

The Church is correct. In Hell they’ve been forgotten by God and that will never change. Ever. It is Eternal.

Question five: I don’t define love; the dictionary is sufficient for this thread.

Dear friend,

First of all, let me say that I agree with the general sense of a particular point you are making. We must choose to obey God. After all, Jesus made the point that, “If you love me, you will obey my commands,” along with the context (John 13-17) that He commands us to love. So, agreed, we can’t say we love God and purposely disobey Him.

This however brings me to the importance of what you (very helpfully!) identified as question 5. I have been a part of many conversations on philosophical, theological, and scientific questions, and there is an ineffable principle that cannot be ignored if there is to be a productive discussion: definition of terms at the beginning is absolutely necessary. You said that the dictionary is sufficient for this thread. If that is the case, which dictionary definition do you use? There are at least 9 according to merriam-webster online. All of which would have very different connotations in relation to God (especially the one about tennis - I don’t know where that would go.) If you mean mere affection (definition 1), I would have to say that God does not experience affection in anything like the way we understand it. God is not passive at all, and so he does not react. Affection is a passive reaction. Love must be defined. We only have one word in English for MANY different meanings. The ancient Greeks had at least 4.

On the point of defining terms, I would also ask what you mean by “unconditional.” Perhaps this is a little clearer term, but just to make sure, I think you should be specific about what exactly you mean.

The definition of terms is, most often, the most boring and tedious part of a discussion, but it also the most necessary. I have found that 90% of disagreements are cleared up in that process alone.

As for the question about God having forgotten those in Hell, if He has forgotten them, then there is a contradiction. God is omniscient (i.e. He know everything). If God has forgotten those in Hell, then there is something He does not know. “God knows everything and there is something God does not know” is a contradiction.

A contradiction is also created from the standpoint of existence and creation. Nothing exists without God. Nothing can continue to exist apart from God. But if God is not in Hell, it cannot continue to exist.