Understanding Islamic Views

[Cinette]

go to the page #8 of this thread , post # 106

you will find my answer which i will quote to u below

*I still don’t know how Allah can be angered by all the Jews, by some Jews yes, even Jews are angered by some Jews. Because Muhammad saw the Christians as polytheists and thus have gone astray, and it seems that that is what Allah who told him.

I would say that Muhammad, Allah’s Messenger, being illiterate, was not strong on philosophy. One explanation of the Trinity, is that God is one person with three centres of consciousness. This is one way of visualizing the Trinity, which must otherwise be accepted on faith. The centres of consciousness are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. For us Christians if Jesus believed in the Trinity, we do too. Allah’s Messenger tells us that there is no Son, because God did not have a wife.

This appears to me to be an unsophisticated way of looking at God. When we say that we are all children of God, Muslims included, it does not mean that we are God’s children in a biological sense. Life is a gift from God and in that way we are his children. Similarly, Jesus is not the Son of God in a biological sense but rather in the way of an intimate relationship. To show the closeness we speak of Father and Son.

We believe in one God, a triune God. The is only ONE God.

 

[Kitsune633]

*I still don’t know how Allah can be angered by all the Jews, by some Jews yes, even Jews are angered by some Jews. Because Muhammad saw the Christians as polytheists and thus have gone astray, and it seems that that is what Allah who told him.

I would say that Muhammad, Allah’s Messenger, being illiterate, was not strong on philosophy. One explanation of the Trinity, is that God is one person with three centres of consciousness. This is one way of visualizing the Trinity, which must otherwise be accepted on faith. The centres of consciousness are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. For us Christians if Jesus believed in the Trinity, we do too. Allah’s Messenger tells us that there is no Son, because God did not have a wife.

This appears to me to be an unsophisticated way of looking at God. When we say that we are all children of God, Muslims included, it does not mean that we are God’s children in a biological sense. Life is a gift from God and in that way we are his children. Similarly, Jesus is not the Son of God in a biological sense but rather in the way of an intimate relationship. To show the closeness we speak of Father and Son.

We believe in one God, a triune God. The is only ONE God.

I proffess that there is no god but God and Jesus Christ is His Son who perished on the Cross for our Sins.

 

[schaick]

No. Just trying to be fair.

I’ve read parts of it, but not all of it and not from beginning to end. I’ve read books about it as well. Aren’t you assuming that anyone who disagrees with you is “uninformed”? How did you come by your omniscience?

No true Muslim will admit it but actually the Quran confirms the validity of the Holy Bible, Torah and Gospel.

The Quran is not arranged in chronological order but the verses Mohammad says were revealed first are not that violent.

The second part is very much a war manual filled with violence and hatred towards Jews and all non-muslims.

9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The only sure way a Muslim can reach paradise:
9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Don’t be a lazy believer!!
4.95 Not equal are those believers who sit and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit. Unto all Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit by a special reward,-

 

[tomarin]

No true Muslim will admit it but actually the Quran confirms the validity of the Holy Bible, Torah and Gospel.

The Quran is not arranged in chronological order but the verses Mohammad says were revealed first are not that violent.

The second part is very much a war manual filled with violence and hatred towards Jews and all non-muslims.

I don’t think you can take certain verses and privilege them over others to prove some point. I think you have to take the totality of the book and look at the themes that emerge. I know that the Meccan verses are generally characterized as more spiritual and mystical, whereas the Medinan ones are more concerned with affairs of state – which is what you’d expect if the verses follow the trajectory of Mohammad’s career as prophet and leader.

I’d venture to say that there are also themes that unite the Meccan and Medinan verses, such as the importance of strict obedience to God’s will and God’s one-ness. But it’s been a while since I sat and tried to read large parts of the Koran, so I’ll just leave that there as a possibility.

 

[pismopal]

Noted. But this friend of my father actually saved my family’s life where we left our country of birth (pre dominantly Buddhist) and he helped us move to Indonesia for refuge. We are eternally grateful for his kind heart and guidance. My time in Indonesia (6 years '73 to '79) was nothing but safe and secure and there was NEVER a moment of fear or anguish while our time in Indonesia;and were TOTALLY free to practice our Faith.

Don’t really understand what has gone wrong now.

MJ

Not much in this world is black/white thankfully. Indonesia seems to be “on the bubble”…between civil authority and Islamic extremism. Thanks for the testimony…

 

[elwill]

*I still don’t know how Allah can be angered by all the Jews, by some Jews yes, even Jews are angered by some Jews. Because Muhammad saw the Christians as polytheists and thus have gone astray, and it seems that that is what Allah who told him.
*
God didn’t say that he was angered by all the jews

3-112 Abasement is made to cleave to them wherever they are found, except under a covenant with Allah and a covenant with men, and they have become deserving of wrath from Allah, and humiliation is made to cleave to them; this is because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and slew the prophets unjustly; this is because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits.
3-113** They are not all alike; **of the followers of the Book there is an upright party; they recite Allah’s communications in the nighttime and they adore (Him).
3-114 They believe in Allah and the last day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and they strive with one another in hastening to good deeds, and those are among the good.

This appears to me to be an unsophisticated way of looking at God. When we say that we are all children of God, Muslims included, it does not mean that we are God’s children in a biological sense. Life is a gift from God and in that way we are his children. Similarly, Jesus is not the Son of God in a biological sense but rather in the way of an intimate relationship. To show the closeness we speak of Father and Son.

i know what you believes , thank you for sharing it

 

[KathleenGee]

Elwill,

I believe in One True God with three personhood, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I believe Muslims acknowledge two persons in one God…God and His spirit.

Am I a polytheist? Because I know Islam condemns polytheism.

 

[cathdoki]

I agree. But if you refuse to learn about Him when given the opportunity, then that is rejecting Christ.

 

[cathdoki]

*I still don’t know how Allah can be angered by all the Jews, by some Jews yes, even Jews are angered by some Jews. Because Muhammad saw the Christians as polytheists and thus have gone astray, and it seems that that is what Allah who told him.

I would say that Muhammad, Allah’s Messenger, being illiterate, was not strong on philosophy. One explanation of the Trinity, is that God is one person with three centres of consciousness. This is one way of visualizing the Trinity, which must otherwise be accepted on faith. The centres of consciousness are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. For us Christians if Jesus believed in the Trinity, we do too. Allah’s Messenger tells us that there is no Son, because God did not have a wife.

This appears to me to be an unsophisticated way of looking at God. When we say that we are all children of God, Muslims included, it does not mean that we are God’s children in a biological sense. Life is a gift from God and in that way we are his children. Similarly, Jesus is not the Son of God in a biological sense but rather in the way of an intimate relationship. To show the closeness we speak of Father and Son.

We believe in one God, a triune God. The is only ONE God.

In a very crude example: I am a husband, father, and a son. I am still only ONE person. As a son I have a different responsibility to my parents. As a father I have certain responsibilities to my children. As a husband I have different responsibilities to my wife. But I am still one person.

 

[cathdoki]

I proffess that there is no god but God and Jesus Christ is His Son who perished on the Cross for our Sins.

As Christians we don’t put God in a box and limit Him to doing only what we understand or say He can do. There is nothing impossible for God. That’s why The Word became flesh. To atone for our sins.

 

[Kitsune633]

As Christians we don’t put God in a box and limit Him to doing only what we understand or say He can do. There is nothing impossible for God. That’s why The Word became flesh. To atone for our sins.

I know that and of course, Christ came to atone for all the sins of humanity.

 

[cathdoki]

I know that and of course, Christ came to atone for all the sins of humanity.

I know you do!

 

[KathleenGee]

While waiting to hear Elwill’s response, I am learning on my time here on CAF the great gift Christ is to humanity. I met a wonderful Muslim woman who has the freedom to visit a Catholic Mass, and always notices the joy and love Christians have. We know it is not of ourselves, but of Christ coming to live within our hearts and souls.

Christ is dimension of God, the Word Made Flesh Who dwells among us…He has joined our humanity. And through Christ, especially nurtured on His Body and Blood, we recognize the universal presence of the dignity and value of all human beings.

Human life is sacred. And Christ is part of our humanity…to the very depths of our being…which is NOT HUMAN but DIVINE.

Christ, Who always was, became human through the Holy Spirit and Mary, to join with our humanity, and to wash away the stain of original sin upon our soul. Christ then restores the divinity of our soul to God the Father.

Thus we get angry, we want to pay back the offender, but His spirit rises up within us, and we – through Him – turn the other cheek. We appear weak and powerless to those who live by sight and not by faith.

Our innermost essence is not human but divine, our souls are spirit, the constitution of the soul is LOVE, BEAUTY, and TRUTH. Richard Rohr wrote a beautiful piece on the incarnation…I will try to find it and bring it here…

Let the Muslims see it and then hear their response.

Also, note that many Muslims are not aware of the Medina hadiths which are the sources of warfare and hostility towards other faiths.

 

[Cinette]

*Dear Elwill

I have asked you before - once on this thread and again in a PM - and I ask you for the third time : Please PM me your postal address. I will respect your anonymity. All I want is to send you a DVD with a 28 minute programme called The Suffering Church and it is all about the suffocating Christians in Egypt. The pain of these people and the injustice that is done against them.

You do not respond and I can only conclude that you may be scared to receive anything from me which only demonstrates the lack of freedom in your society.

You are probably scared to post on this forum.

From my side I will respect your wishes.

God bless you
Cinette *

 

[Sam_777]

*Dear Elwill

I have asked you before - once on this thread and again in a PM - and I ask you for the third time : Please PM me your postal address. I will respect your anonymity. All I want is to send you a DVD with a 28 minute programme called The Suffering Church and it is all about the suffocating Christians in Egypt. The pain of these people and the injustice that is done against them.

You do not respond and I can only conclude that you may be scared to receive anything from me which only demonstrates the lack of freedom in your society.

You are probably scared to post on this forum.

From my side I will respect your wishes.

God bless you
Cinette *

Cinette,

Islamic countries in general inspect most incoming and outgoing mails, and if someone discovered that DVD was sent to or with Elwill, then that would create a big issue for him, they might detain and question him.

So since it’s only 28 minutes it’s better to upload it to Youtube so that we all can see it.

 

[elwill]

Elwill,

I believe in One True God with three personhood, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I believe Muslims acknowledge two persons in one God…God and His spirit.

Am I a polytheist? Because I know Islam condemns polytheism.

look i know that from your point of view that you believe in one God . with believing in one God i can’t consider you polytheist , rather i consider you as jews to be monothiesm

islam and christianity and judaism , all of them are monothiesm relegions

the problem comes when you translate the word “polythiesm” to arabic . it will be “shirk”
the word shirk for arabs has differnet meaning than what “polythiesm” means to in english

if you considered the view from muslims point of view you will find out that christians worship the suprime God (father ) and worship jesus , you believe that jesus and father are the same entity while muslims believe that they are in the fact two entity .
so that from our view you worships two entity while you think they are just one entity . this is the only reason why muslims may consider your beliefs to be polytheism

back with the word “shirk” in arabic , islam condemns some practices to be “shirk” but it dosn’t necessery means that these practices involved divinity of others beside allah
for example . people (muslims involved ) praying to the deads (peophets or holy and rightious individuals) instead of allah condemned by islam to be moshrkeen ( which sometimes translated to polytheism) , offcourse they don’t worship them as Gods but they shared them some attributes which according to islam are saved to God only

 

[Cinette]

Cinette,

Islamic countries in general inspect most incoming and outgoing mails, and if someone discovered that DVD was sent to or with Elwill, then that would create a big issue for him, they might detain and question him.

So since it’s only 28 minutes it’s better to upload it to Youtube so that we all can see it.

*Hi Sam - I would not know how to do that. Also since this is a recording of a programme perhaps there might be some copyright implications.

alternatively send me your postal address and I will post it to you and you can upload it.

Oops! You are from Saudi Arabia!!! OK I will find a way and when I do I will let you all know.

Cinette*

 

[elwill]

*Dear Elwill

I have asked you before - once on this thread and again in a PM - and I ask you for the third time : Please PM me your postal address. I will respect your anonymity. All I want is to send you a DVD with a 28 minute programme called The Suffering Church and it is all about the suffocating Christians in Egypt. The pain of these people and the injustice that is done against them.

You do not respond and I can only conclude that you may be scared to receive anything from me which only demonstrates the lack of freedom in your society.

You are probably scared to post on this forum.

From my side I will respect your wishes.

God bless you
Cinette *

you have to realize something very important ,Cinette
i was born in egypt , my age now is 26 years
i have many christians friends , neighbourhood and teachers , and i allready know the situation in general , regardless you believe me or not i said many times that we lives in harmony and peace

so if you PM your DVD and i saw it in private will not change my view
Cinette , i dont need someone like you who never visited egypt to inform me how christians lives here , and personally i don’t need 25 minutes of movie to realize : wow how can is that happens in my country while no one feels it , how christians lives in egypt for more than 1000 years with muslims if they are killed by muslims like this movie says !
why my relations with christians is very good , may be christians themsels don’t know that muslims kills them for thier beliefs !

so that , i want you to upload this decumentry which you talking about for many reasons , first of them i didn’t hear about it , and i want to know what are you talking about
secondly , i want from everyone on this forum to see it and discuss it’s reliability

what is the problem from uploading it Cinette ?

 

[Sam_777]

Hi Sam - I would not know how to do that. Also since this is a recording of a programme perhaps there might be some copyright implications.

Youtube automatically converts most video formats when you click on upload (try it), and for the copyright issues it will be deleted afterwards if the automated program detected such violation.

 

[Cinette]

you have to realize something very important ,Cinette
i was born in egypt , my age now is 26 years
i have many christians friends , neighbourhood and teachers , and i allready know the situation in general , regardless you believe me or not i said many times that we lives in harmony and peace

so if you PM your DVD and i saw it in private will not change my view
Cinette , i dont need someone like you who never visited egypt to inform me how christians lives here , and personally i don’t need 25 minutes of movie to realize : wow how can is that happens in my country while no one feels it , how christians lives in egypt for more than 1000 years with muslims if they are killed by muslims like this movie says !
why my relations with christians is very good , may be christians themsels don’t know that muslims kills them for thier beliefs !

so that , i want you to upload this decumentry which you talking about for many reasons , first of them i didn’t hear about it , and i want to know what are you talking about
secondly , i want from everyone on this forum to see it and discuss it’s reliability

what is the problem from uploading it Cinette ?

*Elwill - that is EXACTLY what I am going to try to do.

The documentary was prepared by people of trust and integrity. They are people of standing and not afraid of the truth.

I will keep you informed
Cinette*