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Servant19
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openmind77
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I suppose you are aware that Sai Baba died four years ago, correct?
Anyway, I hope this is not too off topic, but you may be interested in a SaiBaba phenomenon that I witnessed several year ago. (SaiBaba did claim to be an incarnation of all three Gods, so it is probably not completely off topic).
In California about 15 miles from Sacramento, there is house owned by a man from Fiji (of Indian origin). He is a SaiBaba devotee and in the house, he has a room with a wall covered with pictures of Hindu Gods including a photo of SaiBaba and a picture of Jesus (and also one of Mary, I think). All the pictures on the wall are covered with vibhuti (holy ash) that appears out of thin air and from the picture of Saibaba and the picture of Jesus, there a continuous flow of some substance like honey. They have kept two pans on the floor below to catch the dripping honey. The honey drips continuously seemingly out of nowhere. You could say it is a SaiBaba miracle or a Jesus miracle or a total fraud - depending on your beliefs
The owner of house opens his home for people to view this ‘miracle’ one day a week - there is no charge for entry (but there is a donation box) - this phenomenon is still ongoing.
I can’t claim that this thing is authentic, but I could not tell how they could have rigged it (I viewed it from a distance of about a foot, but they don’t allow people to touch the wall). I don’t want to provide a link because they don’t like curious or disrespectful people visiting (but you can google it)
Saibaba has plenty of supporters/believers and maybe just as many detractors/accusers - I don’t claim to be either. But it definitely was an interesting experience (The place has no picture of Bab or Bahuallah though).
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Servant19
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Thank you for this dear openmind.
I appreciate that Sai Baba died recently. I have no animosity against him but he will never be viewed in the same breath as the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Again, this is because I have studied THOROUGHLY the lives of those we are talking about here.
I don’t expect there to be pictures of the Bab I this devotees house, since there are no pictures available, nor will there be idol worshipping “artistic impressions” be made of Him either, something quite telling about the reverence held by those who are devotees of the Baha’i Faith (and the Islamic Faith for that matter)
Personally, it’s a lovely story you share and I hope this devotee is expending his energies on bettering society which is currently suffering from many ills. If his life revolves around showing people that honey can drip from a photo on a wall then I’m sorry, he needs to do more. Society is dying, the honey isn’t doing anything to help. If he is teaching visitors about unity of mankind etc then that is another thing, but you don’t need honey to do that
Miracles always occur (not that I believe that this is a miracle, it could be a trick) but they are not the basis for belief.
The basis for belief is the Person of the Manifestation of God, first and foremost, then, the beneficial impact His teachings have on society and the individual
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openmind77
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I don’t want to judge this devotee (or anyone else). Whatever he is doing, it is probably far more than I am. BTW, this is the only ‘miracle’ I have witnessed in my life.Thank you for this dear openmind.
I appreciate that Sai Baba died recently. I have no animosity against him but he will never be viewed in the same breath as the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Again, this is because I have studied THOROUGHLY the lives of those we are talking about here.
I don’t expect there to be pictures of the Bab I this devotees house, since there are no pictures available, nor will there be idol worshipping “artistic impressions” be made of Him either, something quite telling about the reverence held by those who are devotees of the Baha’i Faith (and the Islamic Faith for that matter)
Personally, it’s a lovely story you share and I hope this devotee is expending his energies on bettering society which is currently suffering from many ills. If his life revolves around showing people that honey can drip from a photo on a wall then I’m sorry, he needs to do more. Society is dying, the honey isn’t doing anything to help. If he is teaching visitors about unity of mankind etc then that is another thing, but you don’t need honey to do that
Miracles always occur (not that I believe that this is a miracle, it could be a trick) but they are not the basis for belief.
The basis for belief is the Person of the Manifestation of God, first and foremost, then, the beneficial impact His teachings have on society and the individual
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Whether the phenomenon is genuine or not, the fact remains that the number of SaiBaba followers is already more than the number of Bab/Bahaullah followers and the Bahai have been around for far longer.
The Bab may believe he is Jesus and Bahaullah may believe that he is the Father, but they just have not convinced that many people.
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Servant19
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Dear friend, the number of Manchester United followers far outweighs all religions.
Let us all worship that!
Fact of the matter is, there are no laws governing the lives of Sai Baba devotees. A Baha’i recognises and values and revers the importance of spiritual laws and always has a direction in their lives using a strict moral framework.
In today’s society, part of societies FALL is the sensation that we should be ABSOLUTELY FREE. It is hard to be a Baha’i initially, but the rewards are as clear as the noonday sun once implemented on an individual and societal level.
Please, let us not all become Manchester United supporters!!
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openmind77
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I think you should compare number of Manchester United supporters to the number of supporters for some other football team.
The number Bab/Bahuallah followers should be compared to the number of followers of other spiritual/religious leaders.
When you do that, you will notice that they are in the little league - even after trying hard for so many decades the Bahai have not convinced that many people.
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Servant19
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The principle to observe is that it is EASY to follow Man United. Less so Tranmere Rovers. It takes courage to observe what your football roots are and follow that with praise and nobility, not be one of the crowd without looking at all possibilities.
It is easy to say “I am a Christian”, or “I follow Sai Baba”, less so the Baha’i Faith. It takes courage to study religious figures lives and teachings and identify what is praiseworthy and spiritually noble, not to be one of the crowd without looking at all the possibilities.
I can put hand on heart and say I have studied A LOT of possibilities and connected very spiritually firmly with the Bab and Baha’u’llah
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hasantas
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No one has claimed to have original Aramaic Bible yet but do you?
Ofcourse tradition is importand in religion because it is the way of implementation and living of religion. But the tradition itself should not be instead of religion and belief. And also Church had made many mistakes in history and there have been many scandals in history of Church so Church is not in a condition to establish a new belief or change it. We must regard our ancestors but we should not insist on their mistakes. The source of belief should be taken from scripture and prophet otherwise there will be always dark clouds on it.
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hasantas
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The think of philosopher is not above scripture and prophet and yet it is not enough to explain and solve the problem.
As much I understand you(Christians) claim that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not distinct eternal gods but three gods in same eternal essence. Then how could that be? Are there three distinct eternal gods who share same essence? Or did Father create other gods later? Or equal distinct eternal being in same substance but through relations! Can two people agree in everything without any conlicts so three distinct eternal being would agree in countless actions? Or can we explain that perfect relation only through love?
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Micosil
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Correction. They are distinct, but distinct Persons. It is the nature, substance or essence that they have that is equal: God. This is what makes all three Persons consubstantial, co-equal and co-eternal.
If they had distinct nature, then we’d indeed have an issue and would not be talking about one single God.
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MartinJordan
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Amen! :harp:Correction. They are distinct, but distinct Persons. It is the nature, substance or essence that they have that is equal: God. This is what makes all three Persons consubstantial, co-equal and co-eternal.
If they had distinct nature, then we’d indeed have an issue and would not be talking about one single God.
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MartinJordan
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Where is the Islamic Traditional texts that used verses from the Bible (New Testament spoken by Jesus ) a 2015 Muslim uses. Hasantas I’m still waiting.
MJ
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MartinJordan
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Sai Baiba devotees follow his example by running charities the world over.
Is it clear now?
MJ
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Servant19
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hasantas
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How and When these distinct eternal persons met? Why did they create earth(!) and interest in humanbeing together? Do these gods think, act in same way? Do Son and Holy Spirit not have free will because they did what Father ordered?Correction. They are distinct, but distinct Persons. It is the nature, substance or essence that they have that is equal: God. This is what makes all three Persons consubstantial, co-equal and co-eternal.
If they had distinct nature, then we’d indeed have an issue and would not be talking about one single God.
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SyroMalankara
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Clearly you still philosophize or theologize God using human standards. God is not made, God IS. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one divine being, having the same will, there is no need to order one over another person. A simple human example is this, when my body needs oxygen I breath - my will and the will of my lungs are the same, I don’t need to order my lungs to inhale and exhale. Similarly, although an imperfect and a simple human analogy, God all persons have the same divine and perfect will and act accordingly.
God the Father did not “meet” God the Son in the same way God’s mercy did not have to meet his justice. God did not have to order Himself to create.
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Micosil
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The Son is begotten by the Father (not in the usual biological fashion, mind you) in a similar manner as self-knowledge is begotten by the mind itself. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (some Eastern Orthodox may take issue with this, but I’m answering from my Western, Latin Catholic understanding), just as self-love proceeds from both mind and self-knowledge.
Why did they create the earth, physical reality in general and take interest in human beings? The Compendium of the Cathecism answers that:
Do the three divine Persons act in the same way? Yes:
What about the will of Jesus Christ?
As you can see, all of your questions are answered beautifully by the teachings of the Church with rational answers that aren’t contradictory.
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SyroMalankara
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my point is that it isnt very difficult t o fool the masses with chea parlor tricks
your link shows that there is much disagreement on a lot of the details and specifics
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openmind77
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This is quite true - Hindu eschatology does not have universal agreement like Christian eschatology - about specifics like the rapture, the tribulation, the thousand year reign, two resurrections etc.
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