T
TonyBS
Guest
Its still there, looks like it took some time out thoughWhat happened to the Trinity now?
MJ
Turn Reason Into Notions Is That Yieldless
Regards Tony
- Status
Turn Reason Into Notions Is That Yieldless
Regards Tony
H
hasantas
Guest
Do you know Hulul? That should be subject of this thread.
H
hasantas
Guest
Yeah. One source of Bahai is Hurufi(typefaceness)!Its still there, looks like it took some time out though
Turn Reason Into Notions Is That Yieldless
Regards Tony
V
Vico
Guest
- Does that not mean plural persons and plural gods?
No, because the persons are relations of opposition which are essential and do not import composition. - Is eternal essence dependent on time and matter?
No. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not creatures. The Son is begotten not made. - If eternal essence does not change then how can we say that the eternal essence had incarnated?
The eternal divine nature and temporal human nature are together in one person, Jesus Christ.
“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” Colossians 2:9
“For in Him was pleased to dwell all the fullness of the Godhead.” Colossians 1:19
M
MartinJordan
Guest
S
Servant19
Guest
There are several promises in the Old and New Testament that God will dwell amongst us. Please note the uncanny vision of prophet Micah about the exiles of Baha’u’llah from Assyria to Carmel over a period of 40 years:
"Then she that is mine enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said unto me, ‘Where is the LORD thy God?’ mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as the mire of the streets. In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed. In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain. Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings. Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old. According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvelous things."
(Micah 7:10‑15)
In the New Testament, there is another definite promise that God Himself will come to the earth:
***“And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, 'Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.” ***
(Revelation 21:3)
Baha’u’llah is the Father. He is the Voice behind every Revelation in religious history. He also was the causation behind all the manifestation on earth of every Author of those Revelations.
He has revealed more than ever before about the relationship between Himself and the Essence of God (Deus a Se) and has also explained for the first time in religious history the the nature of Most Great Spirit who is the begetter of the Holy Spirit.
In some instances Baha’u’llah’s Revelation gives us an insight into how the Father and the Son conversed with each other. This is demonstrated with great majesty and poetic awe in Baha’u’llah’s Fire Tablet.
.
T
Techno2000
Guest
Ok, so in Bahaism… Baha’u’llah is the equivalent to the Christian Trinity ?
S
Servant19
Guest
No. Baha’u’llah is the Father, but He shares essential commonality with the Son
Do you remember when the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus at His baptism? The Father sent down the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove.
In like manner, it is the Most Great Spirit which descended upon Baha’u’llah. The Most Great Spirit is the begetter of the Holy Spirit.
Baha’u’llah states emphatically:
.
S
Servant19
Guest
This dear Vico is where the purity of Divine Revelation is lost and the incorrect additions such as “uncreatedness” creep in.
To all intents and purposes, this added natural reason has created a polytheism, from my humble perspective
May I ask you please, Vico, does Catholic theology assign attributes to the inner essence of God (the Deus a Se)?
.
T
Techno2000
Guest
I have never aspired after worldly leadership. My sole purpose hath been to hand down unto men that which I was bidden to deliver by God…
—Bahá’u’lláh
So which is it… Bahá’u’lláh is God himself, or is he just doing God’s " bidding" for him ?
S
Servant19
Guest
Neither the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit are Deus a Se.
When the Father refers to God, He is not pointing to Himself. The Father is not God, for there is an Eternal Hidden Essence of God which is inaccessible to all. The God referred to in all previous Dispensations was Baha’u’llah, but Baha’u’llah has now opened us to a Higher Reality.
There is and has always been a distinction between the Kingdom of the Eternal Essence of God and the Kingdom of His Names.
All previous religions have not been worshipping God, but the God “given to us” (Deus pro nobis) from the Kingdom of God’s Names (known as Yahweh/Jehovah/the Father in Judeo-Christian theology) by Moses (during His Dispensation), or Zoroaster (during His Dispensation) or Jesus (during His Dispensation) or Muhammad (during His Dispensation).
.
H
hasantas
Guest
- There is no answer for my question. Are Father, Son and Holy Spirit exist at same time and do three persons have an autonomous existence? If the answer is yes then how? I mean how can we say one God?
- Son was begotten but when? Did God create Son? I do not exactly understand the meaning of being begotten!
- Which essence act in body? If divine nature never act in body then why do you say two natures? Cannot God act and effect and feel body wtihout being incarnated? Does Jesus have a human soul? How can eternal essence and mortal soul reconcile? Is human side of Jesus a half god so are there three and half gods? Or with human nature Jesus has a personality and with divine nature Jesus have another personality? That is very very very intricacy. Help God, Amin!
T
Techno2000
Guest
And TonyBS says there is no Conflict… Priceless .
V
Vico
Guest
No, there is no independent or autonomous existence: one divine will and intelligence. There is mutual interpenetration of persons. There is a real difference in God but no parts. The category of relations does not require parts. The relations of opposition are the persons.
The Son was begotten before all ages, begotten does not mean created. The Son is eternal (uncreated).
A human has a human nature (essence): rational soul and a body. The ecumenical Council of Vienne (1311-12) defined as a doctrine of the faith that the human soul is the form of the body. There are two wills in Jesus Christ, the divine and the human. The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes this:
467 The Monophysites affirmed that the human nature had ceased to exist as such in Christ when the divine person of God’s Son assumed it. Faced with this heresy, the fourth ecumenical council, at Chalcedon in 451, confessed:
Following the holy Fathers, we unanimously teach and confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: the same perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, the same truly God and truly man, composed of rational soul and body; consubstantial with the Father as to his divinity and consubstantial with us as to his humanity; “like us in all things but sin”. He was begotten from the Father before all ages as to his divinity and in these last days, for us and for our salvation, was born as to his humanity of the virgin Mary, the Mother of God. 91
We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord, and only-begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division or separation. The distinction between the natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person (prosopon) and one hypostasis. 92
91 Council of Chalcedon (451): DS 301; cf. Heb 4:15.
92 Council of Chalcedon: DS 302.
91 Council of Chalcedon (451): DS 301; cf. Heb 4:15.
92 Council of Chalcedon: DS 302.
H
hasantas
Guest
You say that the relations of opposition are the persons. For instance let’s assume three absolutely same robots in very details and composed with same material. These robots may have same acts, words, attributes, consubstantial, relations etc. We can call them Hasan, Bob and Mehmet. So are there three robots or one because every specifity is same?
When Holy Spirit come to earth is not holy Spirit Distinct from Father or is not Jesus distinct person in body from Father? How many gods are there?
You talk about three persons who have same substance, intelligence etc and you say both are same. Do you realize that you speak about three persons?
A man is unique and one and it is not importand how many relations, characters, acts etc he has got. He can be called Father by his son and he can called son by his father and he can act like a ghost so he can be called ghost. But yet he is one and there is no three absolute same distinct persons.
What is that “before all ages”? That mean some time before everything but sometime. That “sometime” is not eternal.
Why do you not say there are three eternal distinct gods and they reconcile in everything? That is more reasonably than one god who became three later!
You first supposed God to be three and one of that god(son) is supposed to be two!
An advise let’s we say God is one and do not go beyond of that.
T
TonyBS
Guest
What conflict do you see, I think Servant explained how to understand the Trinity quite well.And TonyBS says there is no Conflict… Priceless .
One that shows the many sheep can and do have One shepherd.
Of course the comments made offer a great challenge to each persons Frame of Reference.
Regards Tony
T
Techno2000
Guest
Tony,Baha’u’llah is the Father of who or what…?
T
Techno2000
Guest
“It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of** no avail**. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” John 6:63
The ******flesh **(Human Reasoning) is of **avail no **in trying to understand the Supernatural spiritual things like the Trinity and the Eucharist .
M
MartinJordan
Guest
Let’s go into the Life of the Trinity. The Spiritual life that matters. So beautiful so Par Excellence and Love:
Pope Francis : Let us recognize that God is not something vague, our God is not a God ‘spray’, he is tangible; he is not abstract but has a name: ‘God is love’. His is not a sentimental, emotional kind of love but the love of the Father who is the origin of all life, the love of the Son who dies on the Cross and is raised, the love of the Spirit who renews human beings and the world.”
Oh how Merciful God is! Allowing us to feel His Presence. Amen. :harp:
MJ
Pope Francis : Let us recognize that God is not something vague, our God is not a God ‘spray’, he is tangible; he is not abstract but has a name: ‘God is love’. His is not a sentimental, emotional kind of love but the love of the Father who is the origin of all life, the love of the Son who dies on the Cross and is raised, the love of the Spirit who renews human beings and the world.”
Oh how Merciful God is! Allowing us to feel His Presence. Amen. :harp:
MJ
T
Techno2000
Guest
Augustine and the Seashell
The great Doctor of the Church St. Augustine of Hippo spent over 30 years working on his treatise De Trinitate [about the Holy Trinity], endeavoring to conceive an intelligible explanation for the mystery of the Trinity.
St Augustine with the boy on the beach
Augustine meets a boy on the beach
He was walking by the seashore one day contemplating and trying to understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity when he saw a small boy running back and forth from the water to a spot on the seashore. The boy was using a sea shell to carry the water from the ocean and place it into a small hole in the sand.
The Bishop of Hippo approached him and asked, “My boy, what are doing?”
“I am trying to bring all the sea into this hole,” the boy replied with a sweet smile.
“But that is impossible, my dear child, the hole cannot contain all that water” said Augustine.
The boy paused in his work, stood up, looked into the eyes of the Saint, and replied, “It is no more impossible than what you are trying to do – comprehend the immensity of the mystery of the Holy Trinity with your small intelligence.”
The Saint was absorbed by such a keen response from that child, and turned his eyes from him for a short while. When he glanced down to ask him something else, the boy had vanished.
Some say that it was an Angel sent by God to teach Augustine a lesson on pride in learning. Others affirm it was the Christ Child Himself who appeared to the Saint to remind him of the limits of human understanding before the great mysteries of our Faith.
Through this story, the sea shell has become a symbol of St. Augustine and the study of theology.
traditioninaction.org/religious/h065rp.Shell.html
The great Doctor of the Church St. Augustine of Hippo spent over 30 years working on his treatise De Trinitate [about the Holy Trinity], endeavoring to conceive an intelligible explanation for the mystery of the Trinity.
St Augustine with the boy on the beach
Augustine meets a boy on the beach
He was walking by the seashore one day contemplating and trying to understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity when he saw a small boy running back and forth from the water to a spot on the seashore. The boy was using a sea shell to carry the water from the ocean and place it into a small hole in the sand.
The Bishop of Hippo approached him and asked, “My boy, what are doing?”
“I am trying to bring all the sea into this hole,” the boy replied with a sweet smile.
“But that is impossible, my dear child, the hole cannot contain all that water” said Augustine.
The boy paused in his work, stood up, looked into the eyes of the Saint, and replied, “It is no more impossible than what you are trying to do – comprehend the immensity of the mystery of the Holy Trinity with your small intelligence.”
The Saint was absorbed by such a keen response from that child, and turned his eyes from him for a short while. When he glanced down to ask him something else, the boy had vanished.
Some say that it was an Angel sent by God to teach Augustine a lesson on pride in learning. Others affirm it was the Christ Child Himself who appeared to the Saint to remind him of the limits of human understanding before the great mysteries of our Faith.
Through this story, the sea shell has become a symbol of St. Augustine and the study of theology.
traditioninaction.org/religious/h065rp.Shell.html
- Status