Understanding the Trinity

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Techno2000 said:
Tony,Baha’u’llah is the Father of who or what…?
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Dear Techno2000 - I will let servant fully respond to that if he wishes to do so, as I was interested as to the conflict you saw and you raised quite an enormous question. 👍 Simply I would say the Father of the Bible as Christ explained to us.

I would like to offer further comment on this though, as it is important to understanding the Trinity
Techno2000 said:
“It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” John 6:63

The flesh (Human Reasoning) is of avail no in trying to understand the Supernatural spiritual things like the Trinity and the Eucharist.
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I would suggest here that Christ was talking quite open and plainly.

The Flesh is Flesh and it will decay and return to dust and water, it only sustained by our Soul & Spirit while God gives us our time to develop and use our God Given Spirit of “Free Will” to know Him and Love Him.

Thus it is our heart and mind or Soul and connection to Spirit that gives us Life by using our free will to determine the beauty and power of Gods Word.

So in using “Human Reasoning” (Free Will) based on worldly issues, it is to the World we are attracted, but in using “Human Reasoning” (Free Will) based on Godly or Spiritual issues, it is to the Love of the one and only God we are attracted.

Thus using our God Given Human Rational Soul, we Freely Come to Christ, receive through him the Holy Spirit of our one and only God, to the extent we have truly come to know and serve Jesus the Christ.

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
TonyBS said:
So in using “Human Reasoning” (Free Will) based on worldly issues, it is to the World we are attracted, but in using “Human Reasoning” (Free Will) based on Godly or Spiritual issues, it is to the Love of the one and only God we are attracted.

God Bless and Regards Tony
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Human Reasoning and Free Will are two different things.
 
hasantas said:
You say that the relations of opposition are the persons. For instance let’s assume three absolutely same robots in very details and composed with same material. These robots may have same acts, words, attributes, consubstantial, relations etc. We can call them Hasan, Bob and Mehmet. So are there three robots or one because every specifity is same?

When Holy Spirit come to earth is not holy Spirit Distinct from Father or is not Jesus distinct person in body from Father? How many gods are there?

You talk about three persons who have same substance, intelligence etc and you say both are same. Do you realize that you speak about three persons?

A man is unique and one and it is not importand how many relations, characters, acts etc he has got. He can be called Father by his son and he can called son by his father and he can act like a ghost so he can be called ghost. But yet he is one and there is no three absolute same distinct persons.

What is that “before all ages”? That mean some time before everything but sometime. That “sometime” is not eternal.

Why do you not say there are three eternal distinct gods and they reconcile in everything? That is more reasonably than one god who became three later!

What was the soul in Jesus’s body eternal or mortal? Did eternal essence of God make itself mortal? Did eternal essence of God assume mortal soul? If that is so then there are two distinct substances!

You first supposed God to be three and one of that god(son) is supposed to be two!

An advise let’s we say God is one and do not go beyond of that.
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You robot example is for creatures, so you can have the universal and the instances. It is not correct thinking to first suppose that there are three independent entities and then try to establish relation between them. That is not what God is.

Divinity is not created and is simple so universal does not apply, the is just instance of God. There is a real difference of persons (by our way of thinking), but no composition. God did not become three persons at some time. The Trinity is eternally founded in essence.

The “before all ages” means eternity: duration of being without beginning.

All spiritual beings, angels and human souls, have natural immortality, and they are created and therefore begin. Only God has absolute immortality, who has no body and whose spirit is eternal by essence.

So Jesus Christ’s body is mortal and his human soul is immortal.

There was only one God (The Trinity) before and during the incarnation of Jesus Christ, when he experienced death, and after his resurrection from the dead. The soul of Jesus Christ is eternal, just as all human souls are.
 
Vico said:
The Son was begotten before all ages, begotten does not mean created. The Son is eternal (uncreated).
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Hi Vico, can you show me one dictionary which defines the word “begotten” as uncreated?

We can’t create our own definitions dear friend 🙂

.
 
Techno2000 said:
Human Reasoning and Free Will are two different things.
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Consider this explanation - Free Will the Gift, our Human Reasoning chooses.

"…This question is one of the most important and abstruse of divine problems…Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.

Thus you do not have Free Will, you do not have the capacity to choose. This is what makes us different from the other animals and kingdoms.

Regards Tony
 
Servant19 said:
Hi Vico, can you show me one dictionary which defines the word “begotten” as uncreated?

We can’t create our own definitions dear friend 🙂

.
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Yes. First though, you should see how it was written in the Creed of 381. The English: the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

The Greek original in the Creed is: τὸν μονογενῆ (His monogenesis: His only begotten.)

From Collins Dictionary, beget: 1 to be the father or sire of; procreate.

This means to be the father of and a father originates. The phrase “not made” in the Creed is elaborated on in The Shorter Summa of St. Thomas Aquinas:

On the other hand, whatever proceeds from us naturally we are said to generate, for example, a son. Accordingly, to preclude the error of thinking that the Word of God proceeds from God, not by way of nature, but by the power of His will, the phrase is added: “Begotten, not made.”
From: 43 The Word is not distinct from the Father in arm, species, or nature

ewtn.com/library/Theology/SIPLIGHT.HTM
 
hasantas said:
You say that the relations of opposition are the persons. For instance let’s assume three absolutely same robots in very details and composed with same material. These robots may have same acts, words, attributes, consubstantial, relations etc. We can call them Hasan, Bob and Mehmet. So are there three robots or one because every specifity is same?

When Holy Spirit come to earth is not holy Spirit Distinct from Father or is not Jesus distinct person in body from Father? How many gods are there?

You talk about three persons who have same substance, intelligence etc and you say both are same. Do you realize that you speak about three persons?

A man is unique and one and it is not importand how many relations, characters, acts etc he has got. He can be called Father by his son and he can called son by his father and he can act like a ghost so he can be called ghost. But yet he is one and there is no three absolute same distinct persons.

What is that “before all ages”? That mean some time before everything but sometime. That “sometime” is not eternal.

Why do you not say there are three eternal distinct gods and they reconcile in everything? That is more reasonably than one god who became three later!

What was the soul in Jesus’s body eternal or mortal? Did eternal essence of God make itself mortal? Did eternal essence of God assume mortal soul? If that is so then there are two distinct substances!

You first supposed God to be three and one of that god(son) is supposed to be two!

An advise let’s we say God is one and do not go beyond of that.
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If Muslims are to be able to unite with Christians, which is what God wants, then Muslims need to recognise that Jesus and Muhammad were temporarily human, but both are a perfect reflection of Gods attributes. Gods attributes co-exist with Gods essence ETERNALLY. The attributes of God do not exist without His essence and since He is eternal, the attributes are eternal. This is where Muhammad and Jesus come from, the Kingdom of Gods names and attributes.

If Christians are to be able to unite with Muslims, which is what God wants, then Christians need to recognise that since Jesus is the perfect embodiment of the Kingdom of God’s Names and Atrributes, HE IS ETERNAL, but the Kingdom of Names and Attributes is NOT UNCREATED

The only Kingdom which is uncreated is Gods Essence, all other Kingdoms emanate from the Kingdom of Gods Essence.

This is unity.

All other explanations create disunity and are man made.
This is the only explanation which is from God.

It is our choice to choose unity or separation.

.
 
Vico said:
Yes. First though, you should see how it was written in the Creed of 381. The English: the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

The Greek original in the Creed is: τὸν μονογενῆ (His monogenesis: His only begotten.)

From Collins Dictionary, beget: 1 to be the father or sire of; procreate.

This means to be the father of and a father originates. The phrase “not made” in the Creed is elaborated on in The Shorter Summa of St. Thomas Aquinas:

On the other hand, whatever proceeds from us naturally we are said to generate, for example, a son. Accordingly, to preclude the error of thinking that the Word of God proceeds from God, not by way of nature, but by the power of His will, the phrase is added: “Begotten, not made.”
From: 43 The Word is not distinct from the Father in arm, species, or nature

ewtn.com/library/Theology/SIPLIGHT.HTM
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We are getting closer here, especially in what St. Thomas states.

Everything is true, but the process of generation is the equivalent to the Baha’i term “emanation”

When something “generates” or “begets” something, even if it is actively united with it in all its attributes, it means that the BEGOTTEN EXISTS BECAUSE OF the begetter, and as a result of this it has to be a created reality. The begetter begins as a Hidden Treasure and it can therefore be conceived that it can pre-exist on its own.

Does that make sense?

If the begetter has the power to beget, it can be conceived that it has the power NOT to beget also and as a result it is uncreated. The begotten, though co-eternally existing with the begetter, is, as a result of its inability to beget, MUST BE created.

So, in terms of Father and Son, we see that if the Father begets the Son, then He must have ability to “not beget” the Son (although this did not happen). The Son cannot beget the Father. As a result the Father must be UNCREATED and eternal and the Son must be CREATED and eternal.

This, then now, becomes monotheism 🙂

.
 
Servant19 said:
Dear Techno, please study more, and please study my dialogue with Vico 🙂

God bless you, and I pray for your sincerity of searching for God 🙂

.
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Servant19, you know the Catholic Trinity backwards and forwards, and as long as it cuts Baha’u’llah out of the picture you will refuse to believe it.
 
Techno2000 said:
Servant19, you know the Catholic Trinity backwards and forwards, and as long as it cuts Baha’u’llah out of the picture you will refuse to believe it.
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I have no idea what this means, sorry…could you clarify please?

.
 
Servant19 said:
I personally am very much convinced that Baha’u’llah is unfathomably huge. (Nothing minor at all :). ) He has heralded a new cycle of religious history that will last 500,000 years.

Everyone else who has not studied Him or His Revelation are the ones who will be surprised.
…

I challenge God (that’s how confident I am in Baha’u’llah) to show me, I challenge Him to show me that Baha’u’llah was not the greatest Manifestation of God in religious history from time immemorial.

The new heaven and the new earth is here and I cannot take enough of the gushing Fountain-Head of life-giving waters that are immersing me with His love.

The challenge is in place (I’ve done my work, and God knows it, I’ve saught Him with my heart and soul). 🙂

.
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Hello Servant19, one last question:

If in the next couple of years, the real Mahdi and the real Jesus return to the world (return of the Mahdi as prophesied by Islamic tradition and return of Jesus as prophesied by both Christian and Islamic tradition), what will happen to the Bahai faith? And what about your own faith in Bahaullah and Bab? Will it change at all?
 
openmind77 said:
Hello Servant19, one last question:

If in the next couple of years, the real Mahdi and the real Jesus return to the world (return of the Mahdi as prophesied by Islamic tradition and return of Jesus as prophesied by both Christian and Islamic tradition), what will happen to the Bahai faith? And what about your own faith in Bahaullah and Bab? Will it change at all?
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If this happens then I will have no choice but to deny Baha’u’llah

In fact I will have no choice but to deny myself as a human being because I will have lost my free will…

.
 
Servant19 said:
We are getting closer here, especially in what St. Thomas states.

Everything is true, but the process of generation is the equivalent to the Baha’i term “emanation”

When something “generates” or “begets” something, even if it is actively united with it in all its attributes, it means that the BEGOTTEN EXISTS BECAUSE OF the begetter, and as a result of this it has to be a created reality. The begetter begins as a Hidden Treasure and it can therefore be conceived that it can pre-exist on its own.

Does that make sense?

If the begetter has the power to beget, it can be conceived that it has the power NOT to beget also and as a result it is uncreated. The begotten, though co-eternally existing with the begetter, is, as a result of its inability to beget, MUST BE created.

So, in terms of Father and Son, we see that if the Father begets the Son, then He must have ability to “not beget” the Son (although this did not happen). The Son cannot beget the Father. As a result the Father must be UNCREATED and eternal and the Son must be CREATED and eternal.

This, then now, becomes monotheism 🙂

.
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If we use that definition of begotten, then it means that the person of the Son of God is made. You can see the phrase “begotten, not made” used in the Christian Creed so the meaning “made” it is contrary to the Christian faith. The Father does not have the ability to not beget the Son, for the Father is the real relation paternity. The Son does not have the ability to not be generated, for the Son is the real relation filiation. Further, there is only one divine will since God is simple.

St. Thomas Aquinas explains the name in S.T. Q33:
I answer that, The proper name of any person signifies that whereby the person is distinguished from all other persons. For as body and soul belong to the nature of man, so to the concept of this particular man belong this particular soul and this particular body; and by these is this particular man distinguished from all other men. Now it is paternity which distinguishes the person of the Father from all other persons. Hence this name “Father,” whereby paternity is signified, is the proper name of the person of the Father.

newadvent.org/summa/1033.htm#article2
 
Vico said:
If we use that definition of begotten, then it means that the person of the Son of God is made. You can see the phrase “begotten, not made” used in the Christian Creed so the meaning “made” it is contrary to the Christian faith. The Father does not have the ability to not beget the Son, for the Father is the real relation paternity. The Son does not have the ability to not be generated, for the Son is the real relation filiation. Further, there is only one divine will since God is simple.

St. Thomas Aquinas explains the name in S.T. Q33:
I answer that, The proper name of any person signifies that whereby the person is distinguished from all other persons. For as body and soul belong to the nature of man, so to the concept of this particular man belong this particular soul and this particular body; and by these is this particular man distinguished from all other men. Now it is paternity which distinguishes the person of the Father from all other persons. Hence this name “Father,” whereby paternity is signified, is the proper name of the person of the Father.

newadvent.org/summa/1033.htm#article2
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When start saying that the Father is “unable to” do something, are we not limiting the Limitless?

How can a Person with infinite Will be unable to do something?

.
 
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