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Techno2000
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Cool… then you agree with me…thanks… Servant 19
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Vico
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Where the Catholic faith and Baha’i are different is in their theology. In Catholic teaching the Trinity is essential and the Son of God is not created.
Mohammed said that God neither begets nor is begotten.
Arabian philosophy in general is based on some form of emanationism; different spheres to which all things celestial and terrestrial belong. The Gnostics also had a form of emanationism. In Catholic terms, it amounts to a denial of the Most Holy Trinity and acceptance of a unitarian theology.
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MartinJordan
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I fail to see how it is related with the Trinity.
The question is are we moving forward and understanding the matter of this thread or going off on a tangent? Can you clarify for me for good orders sake?
MJ
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Techno2000
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Right, Bahaism is some kind of modern day Gnosticism .
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MartinJordan
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And experience of the living, breathing Church, with the communion of Saints, like Mary through prayer of the Faithful.
MJ
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TonyBS
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Vico - What I find interesting is that the Revelation Before Christ and the Revelation after Christ have not built a Trinity. Both believe in One exalted God, the Holy Spirit and the Messenger.
It could be that this Doctrine is what Christ warned mankind about when he warned of adding to scripture. Christ was not talking about New revelations from God, but adding meaning that was not intended. Muhammad did warn the Christians to not take the Path of making God 3.
Of course this would be hard for the Church to come to terms with. But the Bible has warned us these times will be difficult. The Church was indeed the path Christ anticipated and it may be hard to consider that this may need a rethink!
As we approach the 1000 mark, I think the subject has been covered front to back now on all three sides
Catholic, Muslim and Baha’i - Also a couple of Born Agains Regards Tony
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Techno2000
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This is Bahaism Understanding of the Trinity :I fail to see how it is related with the Trinity.
The question is are we moving forward and understanding the matter of this thread or going off on a tangent? Can you clarify for me for good orders sake?
MJ
**27: THE TRINITY
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Question.—What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?
Answer.—The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.
The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence. 1
God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror. All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion 114 of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man 2 is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.
Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.
The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent. 115
This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.
It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved.******
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TonyBS
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Thank you - perfectly Logical Explanation that even a child can understand
Regards Tony
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Techno2000
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You’re welcome TonyThank you - perfectly Logical Explanation that even a child can understand
Regards Tony
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Servant19
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No
Baha’is are not Gnostics…
No more than Catholics are some kind of modern day pantheism anyway
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Servant19
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Techno2000
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Where do you get trillions and trillions of people from ?
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TonyBS
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Baha’u’llah has told us that Revelation of God to man through His Chosen Messengers in very very ancient and that many dispensations predates Adam as in the Bible.
This passage is an example - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-6.html
"Likewise, strive thou to comprehend the meaning of the melody of that eternal beauty, Ḥusayn, son of ‘Alí, who, addressing Salmán, spoke words such as these: “I was with a thousand Adams, the interval between each and the next Adam was fifty thousand years, and to each one of these I declared the Successorship conferred upon my father.” He then recounteth certain details, until he saith: “I have fought one thousand battles in the path of God, the least and most insignificant of which was like the battle of Khaybar, in which battle my father fought and contended against the infidels.” Endeavour now to apprehend from these two traditions the mysteries of “end,” “return,” and “creation without beginning or end.”
The Trinity goes back a very long time. Civilizations come and go and only God knows the extent.
It is a Mind boggling wonder, one has to think about how little we know what it is all about
Regards Tony
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Techno2000
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Bahá’u’lláh received messages from the spirit world call… “Revelation writing” and this is their understanding of things like the Trinity.
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Techno2000
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Yeah, my Mind is bogglingBaha’u’llah has told us that Revelation of God to man through His Chosen Messengers in very very ancient and that many dispensations predates Adam as in the Bible.
This passage is an example - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-6.html
"Likewise, strive thou to comprehend the meaning of the melody of that eternal beauty, Ḥusayn, son of ‘Alí, who, addressing Salmán, spoke words such as these: “I was with a thousand Adams, the interval between each and the next Adam was fifty thousand years, and to each one of these I declared the Successorship conferred upon my father.” He then recounteth certain details, until he saith: “I have fought one thousand battles in the path of God, the least and most insignificant of which was like the battle of Khaybar, in which battle my father fought and contended against the infidels.” Endeavour now to apprehend from these two traditions the mysteries of “end,” “return,” and “creation without beginning or end.”
The Trinity goes back a very long time. Civilizations come and go and only God knows the extent.
It is a Mind boggling wonder, one has to think about how little we know what it is all about
Regards Tony
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MartinJordan
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Unless it is about another Trinity (as if there is another one) and nothing to do with the established Catholic One God of the Trinity [this will include the Orthodox].
And when I say nothing to do, meaning referring to any of the Councils, that established the matter of the Trinity answering the heretical attacks.
Therefore it will leave out any group outside of the Church. These groups have not experienced Jesus, like we have.
MJ
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Servant19
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Servant19
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You must look at the most beautiful flower and then burn it?Yeah, my Mind is boggling
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Servant19
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What if Baha’u’llah revealed that the Orthodox Church was the true Church of Jesus Christ?Unless it is about another Trinity (as if there is another one) and nothing to do with the established Catholic One God of the Trinity [this will include the Orthodox].
And when I say nothing to do, meaning referring to any of the Councils, that established the matter of the Trinity answering the heretical attacks.
Therefore it will leave out any group outside of the Church. These groups have not experienced Jesus, like we have.
MJ
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Servant19
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Even one error means it’s not the Holy Spirit talking, it’s manUnless it is about another Trinity (as if there is another one) and nothing to do with the established Catholic One God of the Trinity [this will include the Orthodox].
And when I say nothing to do, meaning referring to any of the Councils, that established the matter of the Trinity answering the heretical attacks.
Therefore it will leave out any group outside of the Church. These groups have not experienced Jesus, like we have.
MJ
The fact that a Catholic Church and an Orthodox Church exists (even if was just those two only, forget the other denominations) it should immediately tell you that there is doubt as to the authenticity of ALL teaching.
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