Unilateral Nuclear Disarmament

[undead_rat]

There are no scripture warnings about nuclear war.

Isaiah 66:15-16
See how YHWH comes in fire,
His Chariots like the tempest,
to assuage His anger with burning,
His threats with brilliant fire.
For by fire will YHWH execute judgement,
and by His sword against all mankind.
The victims of YHWH will be many.
In Jeremiah 25:32 we see the word “tempest” again:
See! The disaster spreads
from nation to nation.
A mighty tempest rises
from the far ends of the earth.
“Chariots like the tempest” and “a mighty tempest” rising from the far ends or the earth are two related descriptions of ICBMs being launched.

Isaiah 2:19 descibes the only defense against a nuclear bomb attack:
Go into the hollows of the rocks,
into the caverns of the earth
at the sight of the terror of YHWH,
at the brilliance of His majesty . …

Jesus defines His final mission as bringing global nuclear war to the earth. This is mankind’s final lesson on the importance of following our Creator’s Law of trusting in Him and loving our neighbors:
Luke 12:49
I have come to bring a fire to the earth, and how I wish it were blazing already!
The nuclear war will catch us by surprise (as is evident from the denials being expressed on this thread.)
Luke 21:34-35
that day will be sprung on you suddenly, like a trap. For it will come down on every living man on the face of the earth.

Psalm 9:15-16 describes our nations dilemma of great danger nuclear weapon possession together with the fear of nuclear disarmament.
The nations have fallen into the pit they dug themselves.
They are caught by the feet in the snare that they set.
YHWH has made Himself known, has given judgment;
He has trapped the wicked in the work of their own hands.

I could go on, but you get the picture.

 

[undead_rat]

Even if nuclear war is what Scripture is referring to, well if that’s what God has ordained, then it strikes me that that’s what He would make sure happens regardless of whether any or all nuclear powers disarmed. After all, Peter denied he’d betray Jesus, and did it anyway.

That’s a good point. We should remember the story of Jonah and how he persuaded the people of Nineveh to repent, and their city was spared from the destruction that YHWH had pronounced on them. Our own repentance would take the form of following our Creator’s primary commandments of trusting in His protection and loving our neighbors by standing down the evil weapons mass destruction that we have aimed at our Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters.

A global nuclear war depends on the viability of the nuclear arsenals of both Russia and the USA. The global nuclear war will result from the fear of one nuclear superpower being attacked by the other—whoever strikes first has a big advantage in being able to destroy the other countries nuclear capability. If the world has only one nuclear superpower, the fear element is eliminated, at least for that country.

The reason that our Creator is so certain that a global nuclear war will take place is evident here on this thread. No one is willing to accept the idea of unilateral nuclear disarmament which is the one and only action that can save us from disaster.

 

[Raxus]

“Chariots like the tempest” and “a mighty tempest” rising from the far ends or the earth are two related descriptions of ICBMs being launched.

ICBMs aren’t pulled by chariots. Epic fail.

Isaiah 2:19 descibes the only defense against a nuclear bomb attack:

Going underground is the only defense against a LOT of things. Also, please prove why I should take this as a literal advice of safety and not as a figure of speech describing the immensity of God’s power and majesty.

Jesus defines His final mission as bringing global nuclear war to the earth.

This is epic-level tinfoil hat territory. You need to talk with a priest about how we understand the bible in a historical, logical context.

that day will be sprung on you suddenly, like a trap. For it will come down on every living man on the face of the earth.

Ditto above.

The nations have fallen into the pit they dug themselves.
They are caught by the feet in the snare that they set.
YHWH has made Himself known, has given judgment;
He has trapped the wicked in the work of their own hands.

You’re grasping hard, here.

I could go on, but you get the picture.

I do indeed get the picture. The picture is that you are grossly, woefully uninformed about proper exegesis of the Bible and you need to to talk to a priest about it, stat.

 

[upant]

Jesus defines His final mission as bringing global nuclear war to the earth.

can you stop Jesus from doing what he said he would?

 

[niceatheist]

Picking bits and pieces out of the Bible to justify your belief in a coming nuclear war seems so, well, decidedly un-Catholic. It seems more like the kind exegesis one would find among the more fringe Protestant groups.

At any rate, if God wants nuclear war, he’ll get it, regardless of whether disarmament happens or not. If you truly believe in the truth of prophecy, then you must know that, at least so far as the Bible says, they come true. God did cover the Earth in water, he did hand Canaan to the Israelites, Peter did betray Jesus three times, the Romans did crush Jerusalem and so on and so forth. Even if I bought into Biblical prophecy at all, and in particular in your particular interpretation of those Scriptures, so what? Those that don’t heed it will get roasted alive, die in fall out, or live short miserable lives in a post-Apocalyptic world. Heck, I don’t even see what hiding out in a cave or bomb shelter would ever do in a worst case scenario nuclear war. Sooner or later you’re going to have to come out. Food will spoil or run out, air ducts will get blocked, and if the bombs fall nearby, ambient radiation levels will rise enough that unless you’re digging very deep, you’re probably going to get radiation poisoning. When you do come up, you’ll find a savaged land that isn’t likely to support crops or livestock, even if you’re some sort of latter day Noah.

 

[FirstFiveEighth]

What if it is actually about global warming? Eh? I bet you’d feel rather silly then.

 

[undead_rat]

See! The disaster spreads
from nation to nation.
A mighty tempest rises
from the far ends of the earth.
Those slaughtered by YHWH that day will be scattered across the world from end to end. No dirge will be raised for them. No one will gather them or bury them. They will stay lying on the ground like dung.

This does not seem like a description a global warming effect to me.

 

[undead_rat]

At any rate, if God wants nuclear war, he’ll get it, regardless of whether disarmament happens or not.

I have addressed this issue already. It takes two nuclear superpowers for a global nuclear war to occur. If the USA were to undertake unilateral nuclear disarmament, that would leave Russia as the sole nuclear weapons superpower and a global nuclear war wuld not be possible.
In the story of Jonah we see how the people of Ninevah changed their evil ways and how YHWH canceled the threatr of destruction that the prophet Jonah had pronounced. The same could happen now, but it won’t because only a small minority support the USA’s nuclear disarmament.

 

[niceatheist]

If the US gave up nuclear weapons it would make itself vulnerable. And the prophecy in Jonah isn’t comparable because he was presenting a choice. Your interpretation leaves no such choice.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

You are intentionally forgetting about all of the other nations that have nukes. Including some that were and likely still are antagonistic to the US. You’re also forgetting about the other superpower, China.

Now that they exist and can’t be undone, the presence of nukes works to assure conflicts are limited in scope because no first striker wants to die in the counterstrike. One only casts the blow if he thinks he can deal with the response. But dealing with the response requires that one be alive to do so. Dictators may be megalomaniacs, but they are also rational when it comes to preserving their own lives and privileges.

Taking our chances with disarmament means it may not be Russia, but Pakistan, Iran or NK is the one who hits us. Or who blackmails us. They don’t do that now because they know the counterstrike will pulverize them. That’s a rational response.

 

[undead_rat]

If the US gave up nuclear weapons it would make itself vulnerable.

As things stand, the USA is vulnerable. The Russians have the capability of taking us out anytime they want. The USA has no defense against their advanced ICBM’s or against their nuclear-armed stealth cruise missiles. Furthermore, the existence of the USA’s so-called retailiatory nuclear weapons force gives the Russians a motivation to take the USA out. They most certainly do not appreciate having this force aimed at them, a force which is constantly being improved in its first-strike capability.

A USA without nuclear weapons does not present a threat to Russia, and, therefore, the Russians no longer have a motivaton to launch a nuclear strike against our country.

 

[undead_rat]

You are intentionally forgetting about all of the other nations that have nukes. Including some that were and likely still are antagonistic to the US. You’re also forgetting about the other superpower, China.

The USA and Russia are not traditonal enemies. The USA can survive and prosper living under the Russian’s nuclear umbrella. Furthermore, after nuclear disarmament, the USA and Russia might be able to work together to force these minor nuclear armed players to disarm. And China is not really a nuclear superpower compared to either the USA or Russia.
Anyting is better than continuing on the present course which will lead to disaster of unprecendented magnitude.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

The disaster of unprecedented magnitude is far more likely to result from the failure of central banks worldwide than from a nuclear holocaust. But that’s a topic for another thread, do not want it to derail this thread.

China is very much a nuclear superpower. We just don’t know the extent because they are very close mouthed about what they have so you are blithely assuming they aren’t whereas I am more realistic as I know how the Chinese leadership often keep their cards very close to their chests. Not to mention they are very proficient at stealing intellectual property. Have to remember they were in low level conflicts with the USSR for many years; they would have felt they had to be armed well enough that the Russian leadership would not go the open war with nukes route.

Cannot always appeal to other nations’ and peoples’ better nature, they may not have one. Better to appeal to their self interest, they will always have that.

 

[niceatheist]

The US can so the same. That’s the point of MAD. It means a the nuclear war won’t happen.

 

[FirstFiveEighth]

I am pretty sure undead_rat is just trolling hard, with all that utter nonsense he is posting. Enjoy your nuclear anihilation fantasies bro. The rest of us will continue to live our lives in peace with nukes.

 

[undead_rat]

I am pretty sure undead_rat is just trolling hard, with all that utter nonsense he is posting. Enjoy your nuclear anihilation fantasies bro. The rest of us will continue to live our lives in peace with nukes.

Holy Scripture is not “utter nonsense.”

 

[undead_rat]

The US can so the same. That’s the point of MAD. It means a the nuclear war won’t happen.

MAD is an unstable system. It’s like two men each holding a gun to the other’s head. Each one is deathly afraid that the other will fire, but each one is also afraid to fire for fear that the other’s weapon will go off if he does so. The sensible thing to do would be for one of these to trust God and put their gun down.

Building a retaliatory system of nuclear armed ICBMs is a violation of Jesus’ teaching to forego retaliation and return good for evil. Mankind refuses to learn this lesson, so our Creator is going to allow our evil ways to come to their natural conclusion, and that conclusion will be a global nuclear war. After that world-wide disaster our Creator will repeat His Law to the survivors: “Love your neighbor as yourself,” and those survivors will look up and reply, “Oh! You were serious about that?”

 

[FirstFiveEighth]

No, but your interpretation of it is.

 

[undead_rat]

No, but your interpretation of it is.

That remains to be seen.

 

[niceatheist]

Whatever the veracity of your interpretation, nuclear weapons aren’t going away. As to MAD, not only has it been stable, it has prevented a general wide scale conflict between the Great Powers for over 70 years. Yes, that means lots of proxy conflicts, but because the nuclear powers are rational actors, they’re not going to start lobbing missiles at each other.

Humanity has never given up a military technology, unless it has become superseded by a more effective one. To do so is to invite another power to overawe and ultimately conquer or control. It’s that simple. If the US unilaterally disarmed, it would steadily lose influence and ultimately it would slip under the control of another power.

And besides, as the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo during WWII demonstrated, you hardly need nuclear weapons to level a city and kill thousands of civilians. You can even take missiles, load biological weapons on them and kill a lot of people, perhaps even render wide swathes of an enemy’s territory uninhabitable.

Nuclear weapons will fade away when we have developed even more frightening weapons. Who knows what will be developed. Antimatter bombs, even more advanced germ warfare, and things we can’t even imagine at this point. The problem isn’t nuclear weapons, it’s the human condition.