unmarried and pregnant RE teacher

[Oh_Charlotte]

My point is that the Church considers that child legitimate…in fact, all children are legitimate…at least that is my understanding. Maybe someone can find some support for that?

Edit: Found this old thread in Ask the Apologist:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=11787&highlight=illegitimate+illegitimacy

Do read that. No one is saying that the child is not precious in God’s eyes and in the eyes of the Church no matter in what circumstances he is born.

But if you think it makes no difference to the baby if it is born into this world of parents Sacramentally married or instead born to parents living in a state of Mortal Sin, then you must not think much of the value of the Sacraments and maybe you should learn of the extraordinary and powerful Graces we receive through them. They are of great consequence!

 

[Lucky7]

Do read that. No one is saying that the child is not precious in God’s eyes and in the eyes of the Church no matter in what circumstances he is born.

But if you think it makes no difference to the baby if it is born into this world of parents Sacramentally married or instead born to parents living in a state of Mortal Sin, then you must not think much of the value of the Sacraments and maybe you should learn of the extraordinary and powerful Graces we receive through them. They are of great consequence!

No one said that it wouldn’t be bettter for that child to have married parents. Our issue with what you have said was your accusation that the child was illegitimate if he/she does not have married parents.

In addition, you are pushing for a marriage to happen when there have been a number of posts stating that the Church will NOT marry her while she is pregnant.

And I’m pretty annoyed at your insinuation that I don’t value the Sacrament of Marriage and the condescension regarding what I “should” learn as if I’m ignorant of my own Faith.

 

[Lucky7]

What are the financial implications of getting married? I cannot think of anything unless you are talking about a wedding. And that’s pretty shallow and selfish.

Are you married? Married with children? Because I can’t believe that the only thing that came to your mind was the cost of the wedding.

And without knowing for sure what she meant, how dare you call her shallow and selfish?

is getting angrier and perhaps needs to walk away from this thread

 

[triumphguy]

Maybe you aren’t Catholic? Do you not think there is any benefit to the child to be born into the world with Sacramentally married parents? Do you think its just as good for the baby to be born to parents living in a state of mortal sin? (because the original poster made no mention of correcting her lifestyle, only of putting off marriage for a few years till they could “afford” it… and we are still not sure what it is she wants to afford, other than my guess, a nice wedding.)

To be born of parents married in the eyes of God and all of Heaven and bestowed with one of the great and holy and powerful Sacraments is a gift of great worth. It really does matter to the baby!

Just in case you missed this:

most dioceses will not allow a pregnant woman to get married

They do this because the pregnancy could later be used as an significant fact in an annulment case… I only got married because I was pregnant.

 

[Helen31]

Congrads on the baby!! I’d be in the confessional first off. Maybe Fr. can give you a heads up on what the school can and cannot do. Probabally start looking for a new job. If thev other half doesn’t want to get married while your pregnant, he probabally doesn’t want to do it at all then. I had that problem with my son’s father. We ended up getting married on his terms, and it still made him miserable. I know here in the USA Sacramental marriages and civil marriages only have a 50/50% success rate, so at this point even if you could get married in your diocese before the baby arrives, the only good it would do would possibly save your job. But like I said, hit the confessional first and formost!

 

[VivoCristoRey]

Just in case you missed this:

most dioceses will not allow a pregnant woman to get married

They do this because the pregnancy could later be used as an significant fact in an annulment case… I only got married because I was pregnant.

also don’t you usually have to go through at least 6 months of planning for a wedding in the Church, as far as like pre-Cana and everything I know my parish says to contact the pastor six months in advance

 

[triumphguy]

also don’t you usually have to go through at least 6 months of planning for a wedding in the Church, as far as like pre-Cana and everything I know my parish says to contact the pastor six months in advance

Yep! And often the parishes won’t marry someone until 6 months after the birth.

Shotgun weddings are problematic.

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

Just in case you missed this:

most dioceses will not allow a pregnant woman to get married

They do this because the pregnancy could later be used as an significant fact in an annulment case… I only got married because I was pregnant.

No, I did not miss this. The original poster has not been keeping us updated (nor does she have any obligation to), so we don’t know the story, but I just want to point out that you might be overlooking that she said that she and her baby’s father have intended to marry. That hardly makes it a shotgun wedding, particularly if his intentions have been honest.

I think she needs to ask a devout and wise priest whether or not they could/should be married. I have not heard a case ever where a couple intended to marry someday and then when there was a pregnancy occurred, they were denied the Sacrament of Marriage on its pregnancy, and instead, were required to wait til after the child was born. It seems to me I would have heard of one such case! And I have not.

Has anyone ever heard of such a case??

From whence came this information about the policy of most Dioceses?

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

Bolding mine. Did you seriously just say that? IMHO, only idle gossips have any need for the term ‘legitimate’ and illegitimate when referring to flesh and blood *human beings, * and as I am sure you are not one, I d suggest you cease using such as despicable term. You are not helping anyone, least of all the OP.

Jane, maybe you should take your objection to this word up with Webster’s Dictionary. It is what it is. Its crazy to fight to redefine reality but that is what we do these days.

Would you call those infernal persons associated with not removing the word from all the dictionary “idle gossips” as well?

Do you also think whether or not a baby is born into the world with two parents in a Sacramental Marriage has any bearing on that baby? Is it not a great blessing to that baby? Is being denied that not a tragic thing? And what if the parents of the baby were committed to a life of mortal sin? For a time, for some years, till they were “ready” to make it right? How would that be for the baby? A legitimate choice, you say?

Yes, the world is full of tragedies because we are all sinners. The OP is facing a crossroads. Perhaps the baby has a father unworthy of marrying. Perhaps he cannot love her as she is - pregnant, and so, will make no good husband. That is sad, and it is a reality she would have to accept and live with.

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

… Holding on to attitudes such as shaming the mother of a child conceived outside of marriage isn’t going to help keeping abortion stats low… but trying to keep or reinstate “shame” upon unwed moms isn’t going to help prevent abortions…

Please, show us who is trying to shame this mother. Give a specific example. I hope you don’t say that saying sin is sin is shaming. Its just saying the fact. Also, using the one word that states reality: “born of unwed parents” - that is what you call shaming? Its not. Its just reality.

This is a Catholic forum, and the OP is a Catholic Religious Education teacher. I realized in popular culture saying anything is wrong is not okay, and saying anything at all is a sin brings* outrage! * But we are Catholics, and we believe, and the OP teaches about sin.

Its okay to mention sin here. It shouldn’t scandalize any of us Catholics, as we all see ourselves as sinners.

For those posting here that are not Catholic, or those who are a part of that huge Mass of uncatechized Catholics, I suppose it might seem like shaming to mention sin. But I assure you its not. Acknowledging sin is a big part of our faith. We have to acknowledge we have sin in order to repent. Then we go to confession with that repentance and also with the intention to sin no more, and the priest stands in for Christ Himself, and we hear the words that assure us we are forgiven. Words that are bound on earth and in Heaven! Since we go to confession regularly, our sins are not so scary. We know what we have to do to get rid of them. And if we are reluctant to stop sinning, we can confess that, too, and the Sacrament comes with Extraordinary Graces that help us overcome our very desire to sin.

So those of us that are Catholic here who warn our fellow Catholics about sinning are only trying to help. We identify with the original poster, because we have all been there. Last week, or last month, or we are headed to confession this week! We know that acknowledging our sin is the first step in a very happy outcome.

For those in the world that are not Catholic and do not know of the great graces of this great great gift we Catholics have, its perfectly understandable why they would fight words like “sin” and “wrong” and “illegitimate”. To them it seems like damning. To us its one step in a process of great grace and ultimate freedom.

 

[JerryZ]

triumphguy, I think you’re missing the point of my argument. I don’t want the OP fired – I personally don’t think she should be. I think the Church that she works for should show compassion and grace and mercy. Maybe they find another position for her.

My argument is that she signed a contract knowing what the rules were, and she (possibly) broke them – don’t know what the contract said, but she indicated a morality clause. To allow the unions or Government to override that is what I’m arguing against. You don’t get it both ways. You don’t have religious freedom against the mandate of birth control distribution/coverage but not on how you run your “business.” You’ve got to chose. But if you chose to allow the Government/unions to overrule the Church on this issue, you’re abdicating your religious freedom rights in all other areas. Because once the Government has been permitted to interfere, the game’s over.

Again, I realize we are talking about two different countries – the UK and the USA – but religious freedom is something that everyone should strive for. Otherwise, you’re going to have your Government tell you what kind of religion you can practice and where.

Not long ago that was the case in the UK

 

[Phemie]

Am I the only one who thinks that getting married to avoid losing employment sounds like grounds for annulment?

No, you’re not the only one and that’s one of the reasons that some priests are leery of celebrating the marriage of a pregnant couple.

Fast tracking an already-planned wedding is one thing but feeling compelled to marry because one is pregnant or got someone pregnant sounds like something less than ‘free consent’.

 

[Phemie]

And to repeat for people who keep asking the same question: Most (all western?)dioceses will not allow the marriage of someone who is pregnant.

I worked in the parish office for years and I’ve never heard of such a diocesan policy. Priests decide whether or not to celebrate a wedding on a case-by-case basis. The 18 year old couple who find themselves pregnant in their last year of high school is not the same as the long-term couple who’ve just put off marriage because they felt no compelling reason to marry ‘now’ but always planned to eventually marry.

I know that, as an engaged woman of 20, when I thought I was pregnant out of wedlock my solution was to fast-forward the wedding we had planned for two years down the road. Thankfully, I didn’t have to do that, but it was my response to the doctor who said to me before the test results were in, “You don’t want to have this baby. You don’t have to have this baby.” I knew he’d arranged an abortion for a fellow nursing student and I knew that the only thing I didn’t want was an abortion. I think in that case our consent would have been totally free since we had planned to marry anyway and did so two years later.

 

[triumphguy]

I worked in the parish office for years and I’ve never heard of such a diocesan policy. Priests decide whether or not to celebrate a wedding on a case-by-case basis. The 18 year old couple who find themselves pregnant in their last year of high school is not the same as the long-term couple who’ve just put off marriage because they felt no compelling reason to marry ‘now’ but always planned to eventually marry.

I know that, as an engaged woman of 20, when I thought I was pregnant out of wedlock my solution was to fast-forward the wedding we had planned for two years down the road. Thankfully, I didn’t have to do that, but it was my response to the doctor who said to me before the test results were in, “You don’t want to have this baby. You don’t have to have this baby.” I knew he’d arranged an abortion for a fellow nursing student and I knew that the only thing I didn’t want was an abortion. I think in that case our consent would have been totally free since we had planned to marry anyway and did so two years later.

I found this out when a relative wanted to get married in similar circumstances.

 

[bakerst]

Reading all of the responses on here has certainly given me very much to think about. Thank you all!

I have spoken to the Chaplin here who has given me some advice and my union. My contract does have a clause related to behaviour that is not in line with Catholic ethos, but it does not say that it is a sackable offence. I was in the process of applying for new jobs when I discovered my pregnancy, as I am relocating with my partner. This is something I will have to put on the back burner for a while. Someone on here mentioned that I should follow my conscience and yes my conscience tells me I have made a mistake falling pregnant under these circumstances. My conscience also tells me that my priority now is the life that is growing inside me, and I must ensure that I, that we, are able to provide for this baby, and to my mind that involves receiving my maternity pay. I have thrown my heart and soul into this job and gone above and beyond the call of duty in my roles. I would say that I am well respected and I think that people will be pleased for me.

I intend to speak to my boss on his return, by that time I will be engaged. My partner has told me he will marry me if the school requests that we do, however, I personally am not comfortable with that, judge me as you will, but I do not want to get married under pressure for a job as much as I love it. I want to marry for the right reasons, and many of you here will say that having a child is reason enough, but I know, my conscience knows I will be doing it because I have been told to. I want us to marry, just not right this minute. Sorry to those of you who disagree with me here.

If this had happened to a male colleges of mine it would not even be an issue would it? I suppose it’s because I am a woman and it will become visible soon. I hope my boss will be supportive and I believe that he will, as does my Chaplin. I love God, I love my faith, I love my job and I love my baby and partner. I have made a mistake, but I am also overjoyed by the blessings that God has granted me giving me this more precious task of being a parent. Mary herself was unmarried when she discovered her own pregnancy and it is to her I have been praying to a lot of late.

I do hope this will be resolved in some way or another. There is sadness and anxiety hanging over what should be a celebratory time for me. I have to remain silent to all the people I know and that is hard. I also realise that I have put my institution in a difficult position. By law, I cannot be fired, but that is not the point here I feel. I must speck to my Boss and take it from there.
Someone else mentioned, I should possibly reconsider my vocation, and yes, this is something I too have struggled with and considered a lot in the past and when I leave it is certainly something I should consider further, as to whether I should teach in a faith school. However, despite my mistakes I think I also have a huge amount to offer too, and I still feel that this is where God wanted me to be. I know despite my sins, I have inspired young people to consider their faith and think about Jesus and God and I think this is something special in our ever increasing secular society. Most of the pupils here are not active Catholics, sad as that is.

Again thank you your words have helped me greatly. God bless you all

 

[maryjk]

Reading all of the responses on here has certainly given me very much to think about. Thank you all!

I have spoken to the Chaplin here who has given me some advice and my union. My contract does have a clause related to behaviour that is not in line with Catholic ethos, but it does not say that it is a sackable offence. I was in the process of applying for new jobs when I discovered my pregnancy, as I am relocating with my partner.

So are you living together?

 

[silicasandra]

So are you living together?

It does sound that way but it may not necessarily be the case. A couple who are good friends of mine married over the summer, and the wife moved to the same city as her fiance several months before they were married because they lived very far apart (thousands of miles). They did not live together until after they were married. Long distance relationships are very difficult, and the wife wanted to make sure she had found a job, etc. before they were married.

Even if the OP is living with her boyfriend now, I would very strongly suggest that even if she does relocate with him, that she find separate accommodations until marriage. If boyfriend does not agree to live separately, then I suggest the OP not relocate. There is good reason to turn your life upside down so you can be the best parent you can be, but there is not good reason to turn your life upside down so another person can continue to disrespect you and your faith.

 

[stayathomemommy]

regarding the pregnant before marriage situation, i have been there. we had also 'planned" on getting married in the future…baby just sped things along!!

we planned a wedding in three days and did it with no money while i was 5 months pregnant. have a small sacramental wedding, small BBQ with friends at a family members house. And enjoy the graces that God gives you to heal the wrongs done in your past and bless the union you have and the child you have made. Oh and dont forget to go to confession first!!!

i would worry less about the job. we are all sinners, and seeing you work through this and become stronger on the otherside will be a powerful witness to God working in your life.

and more about salvation and your child coming into the world as part of a sacramental marriage. its hard to give up the big wedding idea but there are way more important things.

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

/
" SAHM to Sierra 8, Addison 6, Kendall 6, Jack 3, and Brielle born at home 7/08. Wife to my best friend, Jay"

Sounds heavenly!

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

Bakerst’s choices and morals here are appearing uglier the more she has to say.

Yes, one would presume she is living with him, as she calls him"partner" - that is today’s tagline for “live-in lover with an ongoing sexual relationship”. And she was going to move with him, til the pregnancy came about. She is only not-moving with him now for the money - not for any moral reason.

Some of you may think it charitable to assume her un-saids mean she is doing everything on the up and up. Pardon me but I will just comment on the impressions as she gives them, and not attribute some loftier possibility to them. She is free to correct any wrong assumptions.

She wants her job for the money, she is not concerned about the morals she is teaching and should be upholding, only what she can get away with, and keep her paycheck. Basically, she has chosen to live the life as a hypocrite. Nice start for baby. But she will get money!!!

Perhaps she has not come across our Church’s teaching that the end does not justify the means?

It is not so lofty for her to use the excuse that she is prioritizing materially providing for her baby. Even criminals and murderers provide for their own children. So big deal. Not impressed.

I think my suggestion to ask the opinion of a holy and wise priest what is the right thing to do and spend time considering his advice is going to fall on deaf ears. She seems disinterested in moral advice, she wants practical advice, and to know what she can get away with. Which her contract adviser has told her. If she were morally motivated, she would seek the counsel of a priest reputed to be wise and holy BEFORE she asked what she can get away with in her contract (She can’t get fired for being pregnant! Woo-ee!).

And I did say find a priest with a reputation for being wise and holy. As there are some priests (and chaplains) with a reputation for being pleasantly and indulgently tolerant, and never speaking of sin.

Its true what Bakerst said - if a male were in this situation, he could hide his sin! And she cannot! The evidence cannot be hid when you are a woman. What terrible discrimination against woman! Gee!

Bakerst will certainly find support. Getting pregnant outside of marraige will probably gain her plenty of sympathetic support - it is politically and culturally correct to fawn over her! She may have the support of the majority of her colleagues who will express no concern over her marital state. And the engagement ring can fool many into politely assuming the best, that she is not planning on continuing in the same lifestyle that got her in the situation. And they would be wrong! But the ring helps deceive the intentions she has stated here, that she will continue until she “feels like” making it right.

Cafeteria Catholics may be in the majority in her Catholic school among staff and among the poor students, who are catechized by the likes of Bakerst. But I feel certain God has not abandoned that school and so there are some who will be deeply troubled, particularly if her intentions to not-repent get out, and while she is called as RE to teach her students otherwise. Object lesson in hypocrisy?? It will likely cause some to pull their kids out of school. But that won’t affect Bakerst’s paycheck, so, that will be okay!



I realise that some posters are going to get really annoyed. Bakerst has not aborted her baby, so every other choice she makes here on in should be heralded! I disagree, and so does God. His Word makes it clear that the teachers of His faith are held to a much higher accountability than the rest of us. And since she asked our Catholic opinion on a Catholic forum, and she claims to be Catholic and is teaching our faith, we need to give a Catholic opinion, not an emotional opinion, not an opinion that reflects popular culture!

God is clear on the high standard he holds Bakerst to:

“Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.” James 3:1

Yes, bakerst should be aware of this, and also how God judges one who leads his little ones astray:

“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea." Matthew 9:42.

And is anyone else completely sickened that Bakerst compares herself situation to the situation of Our Blessed Mother, Ever Virgin, who conceived Our Lord in total chastity by the power of the Holy Spirit???

This is really disgusting! Is anyone else seeing this??

There you go, Bakerst. You said, “Judge me as you will”. Well, I judged your actions and your words. That’s fair game. And my responsibility as a Catholic.

Sister in Christ, you are in grave sin on many accounts. Repent, and be saved.