US Catholics back bishops on religious freedom, but still favor Obama, poll shows [CWN]

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Carlan said:
Dominique,In this country our Church does not tell us we cannot vote for a candidate, they do tell us though to vote our conscience and I as a Catholic in good standing will ponder well all the issues, we are not told to discount our candidates if we cannot agree with all of their positions on moral and social issues. Please, read the following Quote from a CA poster.

QUOTE: by Elizum

“Evil” has a very real concrete meaning in moral theology and it is never applied to humans or souls. We cannot judge humans and say “this one is good, and this one is evil” except to say that Jesus was all-good and Mary was sinless. Therefore, when choosing one political candidate over another, we are choosing a human being with his intrinsic self-worth and at the same time, all his faults and shortcomings, and we recognize as the Church does, that nobody is perfect and we all suffer from concupiscence and sin just as our parents, Adam and Eve fell from grace.
peace , Carlan
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The quote you provided is partially accurate. We cannot, in good conscience, judge the state of someone’s soul. This is true. There is no way for us to know if they are evil or good as a whole. We can confidently say that a person who is made in the image and likeness of God is created for good but has capacity to do evil things by abusing the gift of free will which all of us share as humans. Which brings us to our next issue. While we cannot judge the state of someone’s soul, we can judge a person’s actions. If a person is committing evil actions, we can acknowledge that and, in fact, should. If a person is supportive of evil actions, we can acknowledge that, and should. If a person, through their actions, is trying to force others to commit evil, we can acknowledge that, and should.

To put it in the context of our current discussion, if someone murders a baby in the womb, that is an evil act and should be called as such. If a person by their actions makes it easier or possible for someone to perform an abortion, then that is an evil act and we need to say so. If someone tries to force a group of people to provide abortive drugs, contraceptives, or to accept “gay marriage” against their conscience then that is evil behavior, period. I have no way of knowing how God will choose to judge someone who does those things and don’t pretend to. I pray that everyone will experience a conversion of heart and mind and thus be open to God’s mercy and forgiveness. What I do know is that, here on earth, the behaviors themselves are evil and we have not only a right, but an obligation to say so.

As for the rest, we are taught to properly form our consciences first, then follow them.

+Pax
 
jwinch2 said:
The quote you provided is partially accurate. We cannot, in good conscience, judge the state of someone’s soul. This is true. There is no way for us to know if they are evil or good as a whole. We can confidently say that a person who is made in the image and likeness of God is created for good but has capacity to do evil things by abusing the gift of free will which all of us share as humans. Which brings us to our next issue. While we cannot judge the state of someone’s soul, we can judge a person’s actions. If a person is committing evil actions, we can acknowledge that and, in fact, should. If a person is supportive of evil actions, we can acknowledge that, and should. If a person, through their actions, is trying to force others to commit evil, we can acknowledge that, and should.

To put it in the context of our current discussion, if someone murders a baby in the womb, that is an evil act and should be called as such. If a person by their actions makes it easier or possible for someone to perform an abortion, then that is an evil act and we need to say so. If someone tries to force a group of people to provide abortive drugs, contraceptives, or to accept “gay marriage” against their conscience then that is evil behavior, period. I have no way of knowing how God will choose to judge someone who does those things and don’t pretend to. I pray that everyone will experience a conversion of heart and mind and thus be open to God’s mercy and forgiveness. What I do know is that, here on earth, the behaviors themselves are evil and we have not only a right, but an obligation to say so.

As for the rest, we are taught to properly form our consciences first, then follow them.

+Pax
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Thanks, it is good to toss in such posts in these political threads,especially during this last few weeks.

I would also remind that we are considering two candidates, who do not follow our own Catholic doctrines and particular religious morals and values alone,leaders of a nation must ultimately govern for the common good of all their people.
Mr Obama and Mr. Romney’s position on abortion is pro-choice, I would not vote for either one solely on that or other immoral positions, I do not believe we should or will become one issue voters in this country, how could we in such a large nation and diverse as this one. We Catholics are only roughly 25% of it’s population .The Pontiff, our Vicar on earth, is the one we must listen to on faith and morals,and I do, God bless us with peace in His will, Carlan.
 
Ppl who vote for obama are not in line with Catholic teaching… a pro murder and pro homo candidate should never be voted for.
Carlan said:
Dominique,In this country our Church does not tell us we cannot vote for a candidate, they do tell us though to vote our conscience and I as a Catholic in good standing will ponder well all the issues, we are not told to discount our candidates if we cannot agree with all of their positions on moral and social issues. Please, read the following Quote from a CA poster.

QUOTE: by Elizum

“Evil” has a very real concrete meaning in moral theology and it is never applied to humans or souls. We cannot judge humans and say “this one is good, and this one is evil” except to say that Jesus was all-good and Mary was sinless. Therefore, when choosing one political candidate over another, we are choosing a human being with his intrinsic self-worth and at the same time, all his faults and shortcomings, and we recognize as the Church does, that nobody is perfect and we all suffer from concupiscence and sin just as our parents, Adam and Eve fell from grace.
peace , Carlan
Click to expand...
 
Jeffrey said:
Ppl who vote for obama are not in line with Catholic teaching… a pro murder and pro homo candidate should never be voted for.
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Actually, voting for either canditate is not possible for any Catholic according to what your opinion is, our Catholic opinion on such issues should be based on what our Pontiff and the Biships of the church teach us concerning faith and morals. n
Neither party platforms offer perfect positions on all issues for the complete governing of the common good of all the people,. We ponder, and in the end vote our conscience. God will judge us accordingly. Peace, Carlan
 
Carlan said:
Mr Obama and Mr. Romney’s position on abortion is pro-choice,
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Gov. Romney has publicly stated his pro-life position on multiple occasions in recent years. He has pledged to work towards the goal of life. Some may point out that this contrasts with his position of several years ago, and I agree. Some may call him a flip-flopper and I disagree. We must allow for people to have a conversion and when they do, support it rather than hold their feet to the fire for what they used to believe.

5 years ago, I had no problem with abortion. Today, thanks to God’s grace, the teachings of the Church, and the love of my Wife, I am as anti-abortion as you will find. I believe my conversion to be authentic, and I am going to give Romney the same allowance that I wish for myself.

lifesitenews.com/news/romney-pledges-to-protect-sanctity-of-life-marriage-in-gop-convention-speec
 
jwinch2 said:
Gov. Romney has publicly stated his pro-life position on multiple occasions in recent years. He has pledged to work to wards the goal of life. Some may point out that this contrasts with his position of several years ago, and I agree. Some may call him a flip-flopper and I disagree. We must allow for people to have a conversion and when they do, support it rather than hold their feet to the fire for what they used to believe.

5 years ago, I had no problem with abortion. Today, thanks to God’s grace, the teachings of the Church, and the love of my Wife, I am as anti-abortion as you will find. I believe my conversion to be authentic, and I am going to give Romney the same allowance that I wish for myself.

lifesitenews.com/news/romney-pledges-to-protect-sanctity-of-life-marriage-in-gop-convention-speec
Click to expand...
Fair enough Jason,
I will say tho’, All we have to consider of Mr. Romney’s record is his past performance and his present changing of the mind on various positions, and his non clarity of what he actually has to offer to solve those positions is not being communicated to me. I must say there , to coin a praise, I am not the brightest light bulb in the room at my ripe old age;)🙂
Peac, Carlan
 
jwinch2 said:
Gov. Romney has publicly stated his pro-life position on multiple occasions in recent years. He has pledged to work towards the goal of life. Some may point out that this contrasts with his position of several years ago, and I agree. Some may call him a flip-flopper and I disagree. We must allow for people to have a conversion and when they do, support it rather than hold their feet to the fire for what they used to believe.

5 years ago, I had no problem with abortion. Today, thanks to God’s grace, the teachings of the Church, and the love of my Wife, I am as anti-abortion as you will find. I believe my conversion to be authentic, and I am going to give Romney the same allowance that I wish for myself.

lifesitenews.com/news/romney-pledges-to-protect-sanctity-of-life-marriage-in-gop-convention-speec
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Agreed. As a former, pro-choice Catholic, I fully support Romney’s shift to life, and I’m saddened by the Catholics who demean someone who has made such a shift. To support a firmly pro-choice, pro-“gay marriage” president instead boggles the mind.
 
Being a pro-life Catholic does not always mean the Christian process keeps you from suffering . concupiscence. We struggle and suffer,the temptations of deadly sins in our experience all the time during the life long process, and many fall often.

When we repent and seek reconciliation from a sinful past we do not suddenly become pure and holy saints, we must not kid ourselves, we humble ourselves and give over to the Holy Spirit within for help to persevere till the end. And we are not to fail to respect all sinners and their intrinsic self-worth we are all children of God and deserve each others
compassion and hope for the salvation of all.
Peace, Carlan
 
Carlan said:
Being a pro-life Catholic does not always mean the Christian process keeps you from suffering . concupiscence. We struggle and suffer,the temptations of deadly sins in our experience all the time during the life long process, and many fall often.

When we repent and seek reconciliation from a sinful past we do not suddenly become pure and holy saints, we must not kid ourselves, we humble ourselves and give over to the Holy Spirit within for help to persevere till the end. And we are not to fail to respect all sinners and their intrinsic self-worth we are all children of God and deserve each others
compassion and hope for the salvation of all.
Peace, Carlan
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And, this has what to do with Catholics who choose to vote for the most pro-choice, pro-“gay marriage” candidate?
 
rlg94086 said:
And, this has what to do with Catholics who choose to vote for the most pro-choice, pro-“gay marriage” candidate?
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Yes, I know, when you get to move along to where I am in the mind it seems to go along on the same track, who knows Robert, maybe it is getting ready to round the bend, but don’t you count too much on that just yet.😉 Peace, Carlan
 
Carlan said:
Yes, I know, when you get to move along to where I am in the mind it seems to go along on the same track, who knows Robert, maybe it is getting ready to round the bend, but don’t you count too much on that just yet.😉 Peace, Carlan
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😃

Well, at least your mind is on the right track when it comes to our shared struggle with concupiscence and need for reconciliation. On that, we can all agree. 🙂

God bless you, Carlan.
 
Bill_Martin said:
Being forced to purchase a product by the government is possibly one of the most dangerous violations of liberty we have ever seen. The fact that this product pays for the murder of children only makes it worse.
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But we are also forced to pay into (or in other words to purchase) Social Security and Medicare from the Government … so as much as I don’t agree with the mandate, I do see where the Government has done this before, and people have accepted it. In my opinion, the real problem with the mandate to purchase health insurance is how they are treating the Catholic Church in telling them what kind of health insurance they have to provide … that steps on our religious freedom.
 
Carlan said:
Dominique,In this country our Church does not tell us we cannot vote for a candidate, they do tell us though to vote our conscience and I as a Catholic in good standing will ponder well all the issues, we are not told to discount our candidates if we cannot agree with all of their positions on moral and social issues. Please, read the following Quote from a CA poster.

QUOTE: by Elizum

“Evil” has a very real concrete meaning in moral theology and it is never applied to humans or souls. We cannot judge humans and say “this one is good, and this one is evil” except to say that Jesus was all-good and Mary was sinless. Therefore, when choosing one political candidate over another, we are choosing a human being with his intrinsic self-worth and at the same time, all his faults and shortcomings, and we recognize as the Church does, that nobody is perfect and we all suffer from concupiscence and sin just as our parents, Adam and Eve fell from grace.
peace , Carlan
Click to expand...
No, you’re correct. I find it nearly impossible to be simultaneously pro-Jesus and pro-Obama.
 
Carlan said:
Dominique,In this country our Church does not tell us we cannot vote for a candidate, they do tell us though to vote our conscience and I as a Catholic in good standing will ponder well all the issues, we are not told to discount our candidates if we cannot agree with all of their positions on moral and social issues. Please, read the following Quote from a CA poster.

QUOTE: by Elizum

“Evil” has a very real concrete meaning in moral theology and it is never applied to humans or souls. We cannot judge humans and say “this one is good, and this one is evil” except to say that Jesus was all-good and Mary was sinless. Therefore, when choosing one political candidate over another, we are choosing a human being with his intrinsic self-worth and at the same time, all his faults and shortcomings, and we recognize as the Church does, that nobody is perfect and we all suffer from concupiscence and sin just as our parents, Adam and Eve fell from grace.
peace , Carlan
Click to expand...
I agree with what you are saying about human nature. We are all bound by sin… What I don’t agree with is what you say concerning morals and non-negotiable issues in our Catholic faith.
  1. Abortion (contraception)
    2.Euthanasia
  2. Embryonic stem cell research
  3. Human cloning
  4. Homosexual so called “marriage”.
Any candidate that approves of these (which Obama pushed 2, abortion and homosexual unions) is automatically going against Catholic teaching and morality. To vote for him is to side with the devil, or side against Catholic teaching. Not calling Obama the devil, but siding with lucifer. To deny this is to deny the Truths of the Church which Christ Himself instituted, human nature or not. Sin is sin, and to support Obama is to support sin.

I hope I made my point clear. Catholics who vote for Obama are fools themselves. Ignorant at that. Not trying to insult anyone, just pointing out facts.

God bless!
 
jwinch2 said:
The quote you provided is partially accurate. We cannot, in good conscience, judge the state of someone’s soul. This is true. There is no way for us to know if they are evil or good as a whole. We can confidently say that a person who is made in the image and likeness of God is created for good but has capacity to do evil things by abusing the gift of free will which all of us share as humans. Which brings us to our next issue. While we cannot judge the state of someone’s soul, we can judge a person’s actions. If a person is committing evil actions, we can acknowledge that and, in fact, should. If a person is supportive of evil actions, we can acknowledge that, and should. If a person, through their actions, is trying to force others to commit evil, we can acknowledge that, and should.

To put it in the context of our current discussion, if someone murders a baby in the womb, that is an evil act and should be called as such. If a person by their actions makes it easier or possible for someone to perform an abortion, then that is an evil act and we need to say so. If someone tries to force a group of people to provide abortive drugs, contraceptives, or to accept “gay marriage” against their conscience then that is evil behavior, period. I have no way of knowing how God will choose to judge someone who does those things and don’t pretend to. I pray that everyone will experience a conversion of heart and mind and thus be open to God’s mercy and forgiveness. What I do know is that, here on earth, the behaviors themselves are evil and we have not only a right, but an obligation to say so.

As for the rest, we are taught to properly form our consciences first, then follow them.

+Pax
Click to expand...
Thanks for understanding what I was saying. God bless you! 🙂
 
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