US Court Denies German Home-Schoolers Asylum

[CatholicGeek1]

I have a real problem with homeschooling not being considered a right.

Parents are the primary educators of their children. That is just the way it is. For the State to have the power to step in and educate my children the way they see fit? I have a big problem with that.

Yes, there are plenty that aren’t qualified to teach their children even the basics. But freedom allows for all sorts of things that might be less than desireable. The alternative, though, is far worse.

I don’t see how it is worse to have kids that are sufficiently educated to be productive members of society.

Education is a right, people die for the right to be able to go to school. I would argue that denying children the right to a proper education is a greater violation of rights than prohibiting home schooling.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Germany maintains serious restrictions on free speech for the same reason, but I disagree with the mentality. Trying to prevent a remote and by now almost impossible form of future tyranny (a return of Nazis to power) with very real and current tyranny is not the right approach.

Not allowing homeschooling is not tyranny.

It is a matter of public policy and public good that children are educated and educated well so that they can become productive members of society. As the economies in the developed world are becoming less and less based on manufacturing and more and more based on services, education is going to become more and more important.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Not allowing homeschooling is not tyranny.

It is a matter of public policy and public good that children are educated and educated well so that they can become productive members of society. As the economies in the developed world are becoming less and less based on manufacturing and more and more based on services, education is going to become more and more important.

I agree that education is more important than ever. This is all the more reason to enshrine in law the parents’ rights to educate their own children as they see fit.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

I agree that education is more important than ever. This is all the more reason to enshrine in law the parents’ rights to educate their own children as they see fit.

Really, so parents that disagree with science shouldn’t have to teach it? What about parents that don’t like math and don’t think it is that important, should they not have to teach that? What about the parents that don’t really understand computers, how are they supposed to teach children to be future engineers, programmers, and computer scientists. You know the jobs that are going to be among the highest paying in the near future.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Really, so parents that disagree with science shouldn’t have to teach it? What about parents that don’t like math and don’t think it is that important, should they not have to teach that? What about the parents that don’t really understand computers, how are they supposed to teach children to be future engineers, programmers, and computer scientists. You know the jobs that are going to be among the highest paying in the near future.

These questions all pertain to how and what children ought to be taught, not who ought to make sure these things are done right. States can create screwy curriculums just as parents can, and when they do it it affects far more students. With the subject only growing in importance it is crucial that we legally recognize who has the actual natural right to discern and see through the education of these children, and that is the children’s parents. Of course for many, probably most, parents sending their children to a school will be the right choice.

 

[brumano]

Homeschooling is not a religious right. The parents can teach whatever religion they want.

And that is what they insist they have a right to do; they found it necessary to withdraw their children from the state public school because they were teaching ideaologies offensive to their religious beliefs.
Of course this is against the law in a communist state, but how disgraceful has the US attorney general’s office gotten under this administration when it sifts this case out of all the immigration contentions that are in progress in the circuit courts of appeals, for review and prosecution? Germany might not have even filed a request for extradition or if they did I’m sure it was formality more than pursuit, but, our great pres. who’s supposed to be the leader of the free world has seen fit to single them out and place them in fear of being deported. Just a brilliant mind exerting itself into the cosmic concioussness of enlightened thought I guess, but maybe this is the way you have to think when the alternative is to look into the closets of all the kermitt gosnells who’ve been allowed to kill with sanction in this country for the last 40yrs. and counting.

 

[Joe_5859]

I don’t see how it is worse to have kids that are sufficiently educated to be productive members of society.

Education is a right, people die for the right to be able to go to school. I would argue that denying children the right to a proper education is a greater violation of rights than prohibiting home schooling.

Okay, then they can do what most all the states in the U.S. do and establish competency standards and have the kids take tests on a periodic basis.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

These questions all pertain to how and what children ought to be taught, not who ought to make sure these things are done right. States can create screwy curriculums just as parents can, and when they do it it affects far more students. With the subject only growing in importance it is crucial that we legally recognize who has the actual natural right to discern and see through the education of these children, and that is the children’s parents. Of course for many, probably most, parents sending their children to a school will be the right choice.

I am not against choice, however, I do not think that elevating homeschooling to the level of a human right is not the ideal solution.

If parents want to homeschool, I am ok with that, but I am not ok with having it without limits which is what would happen if it became a right. If you are going to homeschool, your children should have to be able to pass basic curriculum tests, and they should have to score on level or above their peers in schools on standardized testing, and if they do not homeschooling should be terminated. We cannot allow children to be deprived of the education and skills that they will need in the future simply because a parent cannot or will not teach these skills. To do so would be a disservice to our children.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

And that is what they insist they have a right to do; they found it necessary to withdraw their children from the state public school because they were teaching ideaologies offensive to their religious beliefs.
Of course this is against the law in a communist state, but how disgraceful has the US attorney general’s office gotten under this administration when it sifts this case out of all the immigration contentions that are in progress in the circuit courts of appeals, for review and prosecution? Germany might not have even filed a request for extradition or if they did I’m sure it was formality more than pursuit, but, our great pres. who’s supposed to be the leader of the free world has seen fit to single them out and place them in fear of being deported. Just a brilliant mind exerting itself into the cosmic concioussness of enlightened thought I guess, but maybe this is the way you have to think when the alternative is to look into the closets of all the kermitt gosnells who’ve been allowed to kill with sanction in this country for the last 40yrs. and counting.

No, you are reading far too much into this. Requests for asylum are all reviewed at a very high diplomatic level.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Okay, then they can do what most all the states in the U.S. do and establish competency standards and have the kids take tests on a periodic basis.

That I am fine with, that will not happen though if homeschooling is elevated to the level of a “right”. That is why I am saying that I have a strong problem with it being made a right.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I am not against choice, however, I do not think that elevating homeschooling to the level of a human right is not the ideal solution.

If parents want to homeschool, I am ok with that, but I am not ok with having it without limits which is what would happen if it became a right. If you are going to homeschool, your children should have to be able to pass basic curriculum tests, and they should have to score on level or above their peers in schools on standardized testing, and if they do not homeschooling should be terminated. We cannot allow children to be deprived of the education and skills that they will need in the future simply because a parent cannot or will not teach these skills. To do so would be a disservice to our children.

And what if the State creates a standardized test on the subject of “tolerance” or something like that? Or a history test that mandates a biased and inaccurate point of view?

 

[revert_jen]

I am not against choice, however, I do not think that elevating homeschooling to the level of a human right is not the ideal solution.

Too many "not"s there, but you’ve made your point several times so I understand.

If parents want to homeschool, I am ok with that, but I am not ok with having it without limits which is what would happen if it became a right.

The point is that if it is not a basic right, the state has the power to teach things that are not fact, or not unbiased, or not necessary. What if the state’s standard testing required a sex ed test, where the right answer is “homosexuality is just the same as heterosexuality,” or “Abortion is the most effective form of birth control?”

I am educated, and I am in favor of education, but I am more in favor of freedom from state conditioning than I am in favor of being able to make a lot of money. If an uneducated good farmer teaches his kids what he knows, he is teaching them all they need to know to be good farmers, although possibly not much else. That may not be ideal, but it’s not a tragedy. The few kids involved may not be qualified to be computer engineers, but OTOH they probably don’t want to be computer engineers, and we need good farmers too.

If the state decides that certain idologies are important to be inculcated in all children, an entire generation may be brainwashed. That is a tragedy of major proportions. The right of parents to be the primary educators of children is all that can prevent this. If you think that parents who are not allowed to be the primary educators of their children can overcome the combined influences of forced education, peer pressure, and media bias–well some probably can, but undoubtedly not all.

You know, I was on your side of this question before, but I’m beginning to change my mind, the more I think about it.

(But I still think this particular family could probably have gone somewhere else in the EU.)

–Jen

 

[Zadrazil]

(But I still think this particular family could probably have gone somewhere else in the EU.)

–Jen

Yes as a Eu citizen they have the right to live in work in another EU member state there is no reason for them to come to this country and claim that they need our protection

 

[CatholicGeek1]

And what if the State creates a standardized test on the subject of “tolerance” or something like that? Or a history test that mandates a biased and inaccurate point of view?

Well, while I think that tolerance is important and people should be tolerant of others, it clearly can be taken too far. Also, while I think it is fine for schools to teach, I do not think it is something that can or should be measured, and therefore, should not be part of standardized testing. If such a test were made, that would have to be addressed, but at this point it is hypothetical so not a real issue.

As to the history test, who is determining that it is biased? What bias does it have? Again, this is hard to answer in the hypothetical sense, I think that if there were questions about the test, it would need to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Too many "not"s there, but you’ve made your point several times so I understand.

The point is that if it is not a basic right, the state has the power to teach things that are not fact, or not unbiased, or not necessary. What if the state’s standard testing required a sex ed test, where the right answer is “homosexuality is just the same as heterosexuality,” or “Abortion is the most effective form of birth control?”

I am educated, and I am in favor of education, but I am more in favor of freedom from state conditioning than I am in favor of being able to make a lot of money. If an uneducated good farmer teaches his kids what he knows, he is teaching them all they need to know to be good farmers, although possibly not much else. That may not be ideal, but it’s not a tragedy. The few kids involved may not be qualified to be computer engineers, but OTOH they probably don’t want to be computer engineers, and we need good farmers too.

If the state decides that certain idologies are important to be inculcated in all children, an entire generation may be brainwashed. That is a tragedy of major proportions. The right of parents to be the primary educators of children is all that can prevent this. If you think that parents who are not allowed to be the primary educators of their children can overcome the combined influences of forced education, peer pressure, and media bias–well some probably can, but undoubtedly not all.

You know, I was on your side of this question before, but I’m beginning to change my mind, the more I think about it.

(But I still think this particular family could probably have gone somewhere else in the EU.)

–Jen

I don’t think that sex ed or the other things should be part of standard testing, but I think that basic subjects such as math and science should be. No matter what profession you are choosing, these things are important and are going to be more important. If you make it a basic right, then the state has no ability to ensure that even basic standards are being met, and if students are not able to perform these basic functions you are starting them off in life way behind the game.

 

[JackieMom]

The thing that scares me about making homeschooling a “right” is that a certain percentage of parents use homeschooling to:
-Keep kids away from mandated reporters. This allows for abuse and neglect to go unnoticed by other adults who are obligated to report it.
-Teach objectively erroneous information.
-Teach extreme and dangerous ideologies/religion.
-Shelter children to such an extent that their opportunities for normal life as adults are seriously limited.
-Keep children with special needs and learning disabilities from being diagnosed and served, because the parents are in denial about the child’s situation.

While I know these are not the goals of most homeschoolers, the problems do exist. School has a “normalizing” effect on children - it tends to even out any extremes the kids are picking up in the home. Overall, this is good for society. It is good that kids from bizarre or extreme homes get other influences that smooth out their rough edges. And that is because we are not only edicating minors, but we are creating the adults that need to function and thrive in this society, whether their parents like that society or not.

So while I do not think homeschooling should be illegal in all cases, the idea of it being a human right seems bad to me. After all, the children’s entire futures are at stake.

 

[JMJSHJ]

The thing that scares me about making homeschooling a “right” is that a certain percentage of parents use homeschooling to:
-Keep kids away from mandated reporters. This allows for abuse and neglect to go unnoticed by other adults who are obligated to report it.
-Teach objectively erroneous information.
-Teach extreme and dangerous ideologies/religion.
-Shelter children to such an extent that their opportunities for normal life as adults are seriously limited.
-Keep children with special needs and learning disabilities from being diagnosed and served, because the parents are in denial about the child’s situation.

While I know these are not the goals of most homeschoolers, the problems do exist. School has a “normalizing” effect on children - it tends to even out any extremes the kids are picking up in the home. Overall, this is good for society. It is good that kids from bizarre or extreme homes get other influences that smooth out their rough edges. And that is because we are not only edicating minors, but we are creating the adults that need to function and thrive in this society, whether their parents like that society or not.

So while I do not think homeschooling should be illegal in all cases, the idea of it being a human right seems bad to me. After all, the children’s entire futures are at stake.

Your concerns are justified but they can also occur in the public school level as well. What concerns me is the term normalizing. That can be a very subjective term. To some acceptance of same sex marriage can definitely be considered normal and good. Are you prepared to stand up for our Catholic faith against this?

As for math, science, etc., any kids that are homeschooled do have to take standardized tests to make sure that parents are teaching proper things.

 

[Monica02]

The thing that scares me about making homeschooling a “right” is that a certain percentage of parents use homeschooling to:
-Keep kids away from mandated reporters. This allows for abuse and neglect to go unnoticed by other adults who are obligated to report it.
-Teach objectively erroneous information.
-Teach extreme and dangerous ideologies/religion.
-Shelter children to such an extent that their opportunities for normal life as adults are seriously limited.
-Keep children with special needs and learning disabilities from being diagnosed and served, because the parents are in denial about the child’s situation.

While I know these are not the goals of most homeschoolers, the problems do exist. School has a “normalizing” effect on children - it tends to even out any extremes the kids are picking up in the home. Overall, this is good for society. It is good that kids from bizarre or extreme homes get other influences that smooth out their rough edges. And that is because we are not only edicating minors, but we are creating the adults that need to function and thrive in this society, whether their parents like that society or not.

So while I do not think homeschooling should be illegal in all cases, the idea of it being a human right seems bad to me. After all, the children’s entire futures are at stake.

Yes, the child’s future is at stake and that is exactly why parent’s should be able to home school. Problems do exist in both public, private and homeschooling environments but this should not take away a parent’s right to home school their children. Home schooled children are not isolated from society, they just do not attend school with other kids. I know several home schooled kids and they are well adjusted and smart. They are more mature, polite and better educated than most other children.

Children are abused at public and private schools so it could be argued that these schools should not be allowed because a child might be abused. Moslems are often radicalized at schools, not at home.

I know several public school teachers and a couple of them are mighty stupid. I would not want my kid in their class. Another one I spoke to does little but manage discipline,violence and theft (Chicago public) in the classroom. She said that the kids learn little to nothing. I would not want my kid in that school.

I subbed for a few years at some of the finest public schools in the area. Much time was wasted taking attendance and walking from room to room. The sub (me) was there showing movies and babysitting - another waste of time. Some teachers left lesson plans but many did not. Home schooling parents can dedicate more time to teaching.

 

[JackieMom]

Yes, the child’s future is at stake and that is exactly why parent’s should be able to home school. Problems do exist in both public, private and homeschooling environments but this should not take away a parent’s right to home school their children. Home schooled children are not isolated from society, they just do not attend school with other kids. I know several home schooled kids and they are well adjusted and smart. They are more mature, polite and better educated than most other children.

Children are abused at public and private schools so it could be argued that these schools should not be allowed because a child might be abused. Moslems are often radicalized at schools, not at home.

I know several public school teachers and a couple of them are mighty stupid. I would not want my kid in their class. Another one I spoke to does little but manage discipline,violence and theft (Chicago public) in the classroom. She said that the kids learn little to nothing. I would not want my kid in that school.

I subbed for a few years at some of the finest public schools in the area. Much time was wasted taking attendance and walking from room to room. The sub (me) was there showing movies and babysitting - another waste of time. Some teachers left lesson plans but many did not. Home schooling parents can dedicate more time to teaching.

Yes, but on the other end of the spectrum you’ve got radical “unschoolers” flat-Earthers and parents who homeschool not to confer an outstanding education, but to keep their kids out of society. And that is why it can not be a “right” - but a privilege.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Yes, but on the other end of the spectrum you’ve got radical “unschoolers” flat-Earthers and parents who homeschool not to confer an outstanding education, but to keep their kids out of society. And that is why it can not be a “right” - but a privilege.

This is the point that I have been making as well. If we elevate it to the level of a right, then it will become almost impossible to enforce any kind of standards. I do not think it should be outlawed, but it should be something that has limits and the parents should have to demonstrate that the kids are actually being educated properly, otherwise they lose the privilege of homeschooling. You cannot implement those standards if it is made into a right.