US Court Denies German Home-Schoolers Asylum

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He’s your child for a short time. People get fixated on that and forget that at 18, they do go out into the world and it’s sink or swim against the rest of society that was traditionally educated. No one is talking about giving kids to the state to be “raised.” I think the concern is that when certain parents take their right to do whatever experimental thing with their kids that they want, they end up producing adults that function poorly.

I live in California where there is zero homeschooling oversight - no teating, no proof of a curriculum, nada. And I have seen both very positive and HORRIBLE outcomes from parents who fancy themselves educational experts and seriously harm their kids.
Are there no children who come out of the public school system who “function poorly”? What about public schools that still engage in “social promotion”, or entire schools that have kids functioning below grade level?
 
If you think public schools teach critical thinking, you must have been extremely fortunate in your teachers. By and large, it does not appear to be any part of a standard curriculum. (As you say, it is lacking in so many people.) Certainly it was something I had to teach myself, with some help from my parents. (I was never homeschooled, and almost all of my education was in public schools (with a little time in Catholic school).)

–Jen
I am not saying that it is taught in public schools or even taught well. What I am saying with critical thinking is that it should be taught whether in schools or at home, and unfortunately, many parents today are not able to teach critical thinking because they are not able to do it themselves.
 
Indeed. I home school my child. If the U.S can shut down this family…they can eventually go after mine. We have an administration who lied about Libya…stole confidential emails from AP…and harassed republican organizations using the IRS.

They are capable of anything.
Umm… this is a German law. The US is not shutting them down, it is just not granting them asylum.
 
Are there no children who come out of the public school system who “function poorly”? What about public schools that still engage in “social promotion”, or entire schools that have kids functioning below grade level?
Sure there are. There are bad schools and bad parents. That is why things like this need to be on a case by case basis. Children need a good solid education. Therefore, there has to be a means to ensure that happens regardless of who is doing the educating. In the case of public schools, there are charter and private schools to send kids to if the public schools are not doing a good job. In the case of homeschooling, there are public, charter, and private school alternatives if the parents are not doing a good job. If you elevate homeschooling to the level of a right that cannot be infringed, then you take away the mechanism to remediate a situation where parents are not good educators.
 
whacky? what’s that’s supposed to mean?

this is a thread about homeschooling in Germany. Germany prohibits homeschooling in part to prevent neo-nazis from inculcating those values in kids.

you agreed with someone’s statement that homeschooling should be an enshrined right.

I see a problem. you don’t?
The fact that the goal is desirable does not make the means desirable.

How about a scenario where all children are removed from their parents’ care at age 3 and placed in residential, government-run institutions, “in part to prevent neo-nazis from inculcating those values in kids.” Being against this does not mean that you are in favor of neo-Nazis.

As I understand the situation in Germany (anyone with differing data please correct me), it is not the case that there were a lot of people using homeschooling to inculcate neo-Nazi values in their children, and so they outlawed it. They outlawed it because they were worried people might use it to impart neo-Nazi values.

Suggesting that people in favor of the right to homeschool don’t have a problem with neo-Nazis is not a good example of critical thinking.

–Jen
 
It should not grant them asylum. Unless there are actual threats to basic human rights taking place, the US should not be interfering or making a statement about the laws of another country.
 
The fact that the goal is desirable does not make the means desirable.

How about a scenario where all children are removed from their parents’ care at age 3 and placed in residential, government-run institutions, “in part to prevent neo-nazis from inculcating those values in kids.” Being against this does not mean that you are in favor of neo-Nazis.

As I understand the situation in Germany (anyone with differing data please correct me), it is not the case that there were a lot of people using homeschooling to inculcate neo-Nazi values in their children, and so they outlawed it. They outlawed it because they were worried people might use it to impart neo-Nazi values.

Suggesting that people in favor of the right to homeschool don’t have a problem with neo-Nazis is not a good example of critical thinking.

–Jen
The neo-nazi argument is flawed.

I do not think that there should be a ban on homeschooling. I just do not want to see it elevated to the level of a right, because I think that there have to be limits on it that you cannot have if it is elevated to the level of a right.

I also do not think though, that the US should be in the business of interfering with the laws of another nation unless there are basic human rights violations occurring.
 
I am not saying that it is taught in public schools or even taught well. What I am saying with critical thinking is that it should be taught whether in schools or at home, and unfortunately, many parents today are not able to teach critical thinking because they are not able to do it themselves.
So, basically, this issue has nothing to do with the homeschooling issue. 😃

If you’re looking for agreement that critical thinking is a necessary skill that all too few people have, you can have it from me enthusiastically.

But since very few people are getting it from public school, it is not a useful component in the argument against homeschooling.

–Jen
 
The neo-nazi argument is flawed.

I do not think that there should be a ban on homeschooling. I just do not want to see it elevated to the level of a right, because I think that there have to be limits on it that you cannot have if it is elevated to the level of a right.

I also do not think though, that the US should be in the business of interfering with the laws of another nation unless there are basic human rights violations occurring.
I have a right to free speech. But there are limits to what I can say.

I have a right to bear arms. But there are limits to what I can own.

I have the right to freedom of religion. But I can’t sacrifice humans to my God.

Heck even the right to life can be taken away if I am convicted of a crime.

So, there are many rights that are limited. Elevating home education to a right would not mean that the right would be limitless.
 
Sure there are. There are bad schools and bad parents. That is why things like this need to be on a case by case basis. Children need a good solid education. Therefore, there has to be a means to ensure that happens regardless of who is doing the educating. In the case of public schools, there are charter and private schools to send kids to if the public schools are not doing a good job. In the case of homeschooling, there are public, charter, and private school alternatives if the parents are not doing a good job. If you elevate homeschooling to the level of a right that cannot be infringed, then you take away the mechanism to remediate a situation where parents are not good educators.
Fair enough, but what about parents who cannot afford private school, or areas where there are no charter type schools (don’t they tend to be more urban than rural?)
 
It should not grant them asylum.
Really? This country should deport them…and deprive them of providing a home school education in the good ol’ USA? And allow their children to be confiscated?

That Eric Holder is a real trustworthy guy…eh? I am looking forward to the appeal.

Mike Donnelly, HSLDA director of international affairs, contended that Germany is in fact persecuting homeschoolers. “The court ignored mountains of evidence that homeschoolers are harshly fined and that custody of their children is gravely threatened – something most people would call persecution. This is what the Romeikes will suffer if they are sent back to Germany,” he stressed.

The Romeikes – Uwe, Hannelore and their six children – chose to homeschool because they believed that the German public schools were teaching their children values that contradicted their evangelical Christian beliefs. They fled to the United States in 2008 after HSLDA helped them leave Germany.
They were first granted asylum by a U.S. District Court in 2010. The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement appealed that decision in 2012 and was supported by the Board of Immigration Appeals.
christianpost.com/news/german-homeschool-family-loses-asylum-case-home-school-legal-defense-association-will-appeal-95893/
 
The fact that the goal is desirable does not make the means desirable.

How about a scenario where all children are removed from their parents’ care at age 3 and placed in residential, government-run institutions, “in part to prevent neo-nazis from inculcating those values in kids.” Being against this does not mean that you are in favor of neo-Nazis.

As I understand the situation in Germany (anyone with differing data please correct me), it is not the case that there were a lot of people using homeschooling to inculcate neo-Nazi values in their children, and so they outlawed it. They outlawed it because they were worried people might use it to impart neo-Nazi values.

Suggesting that people in favor of the right to homeschool don’t have a problem with neo-Nazis is not a good example of critical thinking.

–Jen
your hypothetical, when fleshed out, might provide grounds for asylum, but those are not the facts here.

I assume that people are commenting on topic, which involves homeschooling in Germany, so that posting in favor of an absolute right to homeschool is in that context and suggests that the commentator has either not thought it out or just doesn’t mind.

the point is, banning all homeschooling is how the German government chooses to address neo-nazism, a legitimate internal concern over there and wholly within their rights to address in a suitable way. the USofA won’t pass judgment on how Germany does this, which it would have to if it grants asylum. in effect, the courts would have to find that Germany persecutes Christians, an absurdity, compared to how persecution is actually defined in asylum law.

neo-nazi homeschooling in the US would be first amendment protected, but the FRG has peculiar concerns not relevant here.
 
I have a right to free speech. But there are limits to what I can say.

I have a right to bear arms. But there are limits to what I can own.

I have the right to freedom of religion. But I can’t sacrifice humans to my God.

Heck even the right to life can be taken away if I am convicted of a crime.

So, there are many rights that are limited. Elevating home education to a right would not mean that the right would be limitless.
It is incredibly hard to put limits on rights. Look at the current gun control debate, you can’t even get mandatory background checks through because gun ownership is a right.

If you make it a right, people are going to always argue that any limits are a violation of their rights and many of those people will be successful. Look at how far people have been able to take the “right” to abortion.

Homeschooling should be a privilege for those that are able to do it well. Not a right that protects those that want to teach their children that the world is flat.
 
Fair enough, but what about parents who cannot afford private school, or areas where there are no charter type schools (don’t they tend to be more urban than rural?)
The answer to those problems in my opinion is still not to make homeschooling a right, but to increase the options that are available to people.

I am not saying that homeschooling should not be an option, especially for people that do not have a lot of choices. What I am saying is that if it is elevated to the level of a right, it will become very difficult to put any limits on it, and I believe that there have to be limits.
 
Really? This country should deport them…and deprive them of providing a home school education in the good ol’ USA? And allow their children to be confiscated?

That Eric Holder is a real trustworthy guy…eh? I am looking forward to the appeal.

Mike Donnelly, HSLDA director of international affairs, contended that Germany is in fact persecuting homeschoolers. “The court ignored mountains of evidence that homeschoolers are harshly fined and that custody of their children is gravely threatened – something most people would call persecution. This is what the Romeikes will suffer if they are sent back to Germany,” he stressed.

The Romeikes – Uwe, Hannelore and their six children – chose to homeschool because they believed that the German public schools were teaching their children values that contradicted their evangelical Christian beliefs. They fled to the United States in 2008 after HSLDA helped them leave Germany.
They were first granted asylum by a U.S. District Court in 2010. The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement appealed that decision in 2012 and was supported by the Board of Immigration Appeals.
christianpost.com/news/german-homeschool-family-loses-asylum-case-home-school-legal-defense-association-will-appeal-95893/
There is a law in Germany that bans homeschooling. They are not persecuting anyone, they are enforcing those laws. If the law should be changed, and I believe that it should, because I do not believe a total ban is the right answer, then it should be changed through the democratic process in Germany. Asylum is for people whose basic human rights are being violated, that is not the case here. There is no reason for the US to get involved in this fight.
 
But I’m not sure I understand, anyway. Isn’t home-schooling allowed anywhere in the EU? Because I don’t think you need anything but a passport to immigrate between EU countries. I’d be happy to welcome them, but I don’t understand why they needed to come here to escape mandatory attendance at state-run schools
Yes they could have moved to any one of several countries where home-schooling is quite accepted in the same sort of way an American can move from one State to another.

I expect the point is that it wouldn’t have served the same kind of ‘making a big fuss about German policy’ purpose to have just quietly flown to the UK or caught a bus to Denmark.
 
It is incredibly hard to put limits on rights. Look at the current gun control debate, you can’t even get mandatory background checks through because gun ownership is a right…
you mean its hard to put additional limitations on established rights like those in the second amendment. the inability to get background checks isn’t a constitutional issue, at the moment, its the political consequence of the president’s incompetent bumbling. background checks may or may not be constitutional, depending on how the unwritten rules are written.

since there’s no constitutional requirement to believe the earth is a sphere, I’d guess that there’s a constitutional right to for parents to instruct kids that it is flat.
 
Mike Donnelly, HSLDA director of international affairs, contended that Germany is in fact persecuting homeschoolers. “The court ignored mountains of evidence that homeschoolers are harshly fined and that custody of their children is gravely threatened – something most people would call persecution. This is what the Romeikes will suffer if they are sent back to Germany,” he stressed.
What I recall of this case is that the Romeikes didn’t present a shred of evidence. They had one German activist give anecdotal and unsubstantiated testimony and didn’t even provide the text of the law they claim to be persecuted under. What we do know is that the Romeikes chose not to follow the established procedure to seek an exemption, broke the law, then left the country all on the advice of an activist organization in Germany
 
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