US is‘worst’ imperialist: archbishop

[He_Man]

Times of London

The Archbishop of Canterbury has said that the United States wields its power in a way that is worse than Britain during its imperial heyday.

Rowan Williams claimed that America’s attempt to intervene overseas by “clearing the decks” with a “quick burst of violent action” had led to “the worst of all worlds”.

In a wide-ranging interview with a British Muslim magazine, the Anglican leader linked criticism of the United States to one of his most pessimistic declarations about the state of western civilisation.

He said the crisis was caused not just by America’s actions but also by its misguided sense of its own mission. He poured scorn on the “chosen nation myth of America, meaning that what happens in America is very much at the heart of God’s purpose for humanity”.
…

Williams suggested American leadership had broken down: “We have only one global hegemonic power. It is not accumulating territory: it is trying to accumulate influence and control. That’s not working.”

He contrasted it unfavourably with how the British Empire governed India. “It is one thing to take over a territory and then pour energy and resources into administering it and normalising it. Rightly or wrongly, that’s what the British Empire did — in India, for example.
…
In the interview in Emel, a Muslim lifestyle magazine, Williams makes only mild criticisms of the Islamic world. He said the Muslim world must acknowledge that its “political solutions were not the most impressive”

Words of wisdom from the captain of a sinking ship as the waves rise up to engulf him. It’s always guys like him whose families are falling apart that criticize those struggling, but still intact and successful, families.

Rowan Atkinson > Rowan Williams.

Having said that, if I were him, I’d be more concerned with the growing threat of Islam overrunning my once Christian country than I would America’s imperialism.

If he think America is a greater threat to his country than Islam, he’s very naive, or extermely unqualified to be a major religious leader. Bishop Sheen warned of the rising threat of Islam 50 some years ago…

 

[Shoshana]

If you are putting forth a left bias, please say so. Some here are apolitical. It’s all about disclosure.

I am not ‘left’ at all…I am very conservative, just ask my friends and my family. I have put down quotes that I believe have proven the US to be imperalist. I will re-ieterate in saying that much damage as well as good has been shown. But the good does not wipe away the bad in any which way or form.

 

[redmars3000]

This is the biggest problem I have with American Nationalism. It blinds you. I find it odd that, assuming you’re a Catholic in good standing, that you find the civil authorities wrong on so many things, ie. contraception, same-sex marriage, abortion (which incidentally is killing more people than the Iraq War)…but when it comes to a war, you find the Vatican has no authority in morality and it lies solely with the government.

Actually, if you read one of the current Pope’s book, “Without Roots,” You would know that he says it is not his place to make judgments about the Iraq War being moral or immoral because that would step outside the boundaries of theology. He certainly has said that the situation needs to be improved, but that is far from saying the initial action was unjust. So we are free to make our own judgements.

Comparing abortion to the War in Iraq? Apples and Oranges.

War can be just. Therefore not all war is wrong.

Abortion, contraception, etc is never right, in any situation. There is no justification. When a theologian makes a statement to a government saying abortion is wrong there is no gray area for the government to be confused about. They are doing either right or wrong!

More blind American Nationalism. Ignore any efforts by Poles, French, Canadians, British to wipe out the Nazis and take all the glory for yourself. Talk to me about the Red Army defeating 80% of the Nazi frontline on D-Day on the Eastern Front.

(Off-topic) You realize your “blind American Nationalism” comments dont make you any friends over here? It makes you sound like one of the rabid anti-American crowd. I’m not saying you are, just that your comments sound like it. The truth is without the U.S., Europe would have lost to the Nazies, Or the Soviets. No equivocating there.

The thing that is interesting about the Red Army too, is that they kept all the land they “liberated” from the Nazies. I think that is called conquering, Why do you lump us in the same category? You certainly are reinforcing stereo-types that Americans have about you and your countrymen.

(Back to topic) Since you posed the question first: Where do you stand on abortion and contraception since “assuming you’re a Catholic in good standing” , you decided to use it as a hammer against your opponent to make him seem a hypocrite?

 

[Shoshana]

“Which makes the US an imperalist country.”

By the way, imperalist is spelled imperialist. A parroting statement but nothing to back it up with. To answer you question the U.S. has the right to enforce the common good! How many people must be killed in the name of genocide before we do something? Cause that’s what Saddam was doing. WWII is an example of what happens when you let a problem like the Nazis grow! As far as the Iraq war in the 1990’s goes it was a just war in my opinion. Would you mind coming up with the names of the priests and theologians who disagreed w/ Father Toracco besides St. Augustine?

U.S. Bishops Say War with Iraq Lacks 'Moral Legitimacy’
catholicherald.com/cns/iraq-gregory.htm

Catholic moralists warn against U.S. war plans
ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/1998a/022098/022098c.htm

Blocking war remains high on Vatican to-do list
Vatican diplomacy aimed at blocking a war in Iraq continued this week, with a visit from English Prime Minister Tony Blair and comments from Vatican officials suggesting that armed force without U.N. authorization would be a crime, and that the U.S. may be acting on the basis of oil interests. Source: National Catholic Reporter, Feb 28, 2003
nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/word0228.htm

U.S. ambassador to Vatican rejects criticism of unilateralism on Iraq
U.S. Ambassador to the Vatican Jim Nicholson rejected criticism of U.S. “unilateralism” on Iraq, saying the United Nations has already provided for the possibility of armed intervention if Iraq refuses to disarm.
The ambassador’s comments followed a statement by Archbishop Jean-Louis Tauran, a Vatican foreign affairs official, who said a U.S. attack on Iraq without U.N. authorization would be a “crime against peace” and a violation of international law. Source: Catholic News Service, Feb 27, 2003
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/20030226.htm

Milwaukee Jesuits oppose military action in Iraq
The Rev. Thomas Caldwell said anti-war sentiment is strong among Marquette’s Jesuits, who are in general agreement with the shared stance from Jesuits and Catholics nationally and worldwide. Source: Marquette Tribune, Feb 27, 2003
134.48.55.172:8000/tribune/tribunegetnews.shtml?n-jesuits022703

 

[Shoshana]

**Priest urges war alternative **
A Catholic priest and chaplain during the Vietnam War told a meeting of the Leelanau County Democrats Wednesday that Americans need to embrace a non-violent solution to the crisis in Iraq. Source: Traverse City Record-Eagle, Feb 27, 2003
record-eagle.com/2003/feb/27priest.htm

Vatican official, Muslim leader send letters to Bush, Blair, Saddam
A Muslim leader and a Vatican official have asked U.S. President George W. Bush, British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to avoid war. Source: Catholic News Service, Feb 25, 2003
catholicnews.com/data/briefs/cns/20030225.htm#head6

Prelates of Jerusalem, Sarajevo and Baghdad Call for Peace
The Latin-rite patriarch of Jerusalem, the archbishop of Sarajevo, and the patriarch of Babylon of the Chaldeans joined their voices to the Pope’s in a plea for peace in Iraq. Source: Zenit, Feb 25, 2003

Anti-war prayer vigil unites Catholics
More than 100 area Catholics prayed for a peaceful solution to a possible war with Iraq at a prayer vigil Sunday at Ss. Simon and Jude Catholic Church in Bethlehem. Source: Allentown Morning Call, Feb 24, 2003
story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/trib/20030224/lo_mcall/anti_war_prayer_vigil_unites_catholics

**Pope calls for all Catholics to fast on March 5 against war in Iraq **
Pope John Paul II called on Catholics to fast on Ash Wednesday in the name of peace and said again on Sunday he worried a U.S.-led war against Iraq could unsettle the entire Middle East. Source: AP, Feb 24, 2003
story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030223/ap_to_po/vatican_iraq_1

**Vatican - Not anti-US, just anti-war **
As the possibility of war in Iraq grows, the Church is also feeling the heat. The repeated pleas for peace issued by the Pope, members of the Roman Curia and assorted bishops’ conferences have been criticized by some observers as evidence of either unjustified interference, mere pacifism or not-so-subtle anti-Americanism. On closer examination, however, none of these charges holds water. Source: Manila Times, Feb 23, 2003
manilatimes.net/national/2003/feb/23/opinion/20030223opi3.html

Vatican backs efforts to prevent Iraq war, disarm Saddam
Meanwhile, Catholic leaders and organizations joined a growing anti-war movement that stretched across the globe and spilled into the streets of major cities on every continent. Source; Catholic News Service, Feb 17, 2003
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/20030217.htm

Iraq’s Aziz to pray for peace
Iraq’s Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz is set to pray for peace at the tomb of Saint Francis in the central Italian city of Assis. Source; CNN, Jan 10, 2003
cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/02/10/italy.iraq/index.html

Pope’s answer to Rumsfeld pulls no punches in opposing war
A senior Vatican official says that Catholic “just war” doctrine is undergoing an evolution similar to that on capital punishment, from grudging acceptance to a quasi-abolitionist stance. In both cases, he said, modern society has the means to resolve problems without the use of lethal force. Source: National Catholic Reporter, Feb 7, 2003
natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives/021403/021403e.htm

 

[Shoshana]

Vatican continues to oppose war
The Vatican’s official newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, walked up to the brink on Feb. 1 of calling American policy in Iraq stupid. Sourcee: National Catholic Reporter, Feb 7, 2003
nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/word0207.htm

Archbishop of Sydney: Not yet enough evidence for just war
To my mind, it is morally justifiable for the Australian navy to enforce the embargo on Iraq and for Australian troops to pressure the Iraq dictator to comply with the UN peace conditions he accepted in 1991. These are honourable activities. But the public evidence is as yet insufficient to justify going to war, especially without the backing of the UN Security Council. Source: The Australrian, Feb.4, 2003
theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,5930651%5E7583,00.html

Asia Urges More Time for Iraq Inspections
In the Philippines, a mostly Roman Catholic country but with a large Muslim minority, politicians and church leaders have aired opposition to a strike against Iraq. Source: Cybercast News Service, Jan 30, 2003
cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archive00301\FOR20030128g.html

Pakistani Christians demonstrate against possible U.S.-Iraq war
LAHORE, Pakistan (CNS) – Pakistani Christians organized demonstrations to protest a possible U.S. war against Iraq. Organizers said they staged the events to assure Muslims that Christians have nothing to do with U.S. plans to attack Iraq. Source: Catholic News Service, Jan 29, 2003
catholicnews.com/data/briefs/cns/20030129.htm#head14

Vatican criticism of war plans chills relations with U.S.
John Paul II repeatedly pleaded for peace over the Christmas holidays, joining his voice to his senior aides who for months have been expressing increasingly strident opposition to a U.S.-led military attack on Iraq. Though the pope only once mentioned Iraq by name, he used the platform offered by the holiday events to deliver a pointed antiwar message. Source: National Catholic Reporter, Jan. 24, 2003
natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives/012403/012403g.htm

Why I Went to Baghdad
The General Secretary of the National Council of Churches explains why war with Iraq is “immoral and illegal.” Source: Beliefnet, 1/6/03
beliefnet.com/frameset.asp?pageLoc=/story/119/story_11954_1.html&boardID=50214

War with Iraq could unleash the forces of evil
Military chaplain and deacon GARY STONE warns that Australia is being led into a war against Iraq which is morally and ethically unjustifiable
catholicleader.com.au/index.php?pgnum=2.5

Iraq war ‘unjustifiable’, says Bush’s church head
President George Bush’s own Methodist church has launched a scathing attack on his preparations for war against Iraq, saying they are ‘without any justification according to the teachings of Christ’. Jim Winkler, head of social policy for United Methodists, added that all attempts at a ‘dialogue’ between the President and his own church over the war had fallen on deaf ears at the White House.
observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,815693,00.html

European bishops council calls war with Iraq 'terrible prospect’
A council of European bishops has warned against the “terrible prospect” of armed conflict with Iraq. In an Oct. 6 statement, members of the Swiss-based Council of Catholic Episcopates of Europe urged politicians to remember “evil cannot be defeated by another evil.”
catholicnews.com/data/briefs/cns/20021008.htm#head9

**U.S. has double standards in dealing with Iraq’: Iraqi Catholic leader **
Iraqi Catholic patriarch accuses the U.S. of using weapons of mass destruction against Iraqis during the Gulf War
thehilltimes.ca/2002/september/2/rana2/

 

[bones_IV]

Rowan Atkinson > Rowan Williams.

Having said that, if I were him, I’d be more concerned with the growing threat of Islam overrunning my once Christian country than I would America’s imperialism.

If he think America is a greater threat to his country than Islam, he’s very naive, or extermely unqualified to be a major religious leader. Bishop Sheen warned of the rising threat of Islam 50 some years ago…

And the pagan god Allah winked at him.

 

[bones_IV]

I noticed that some sources were linked to “National Catholic Reporter” . Nice try.

I find it funny how some are displeased with the USA’s “cleaning the decks” and have little criticism for Islamists who ALSO “clean the decks” of infidels–like in Somalia, or (less recently) Andalusia, or Bethlehem, or …

my my.

Are they going blind or just dotty in their aging processes?

 

[Shoshana]

I noticed that some sources were linked to “National Catholic Reporter” . Nice try.

4 out of the whole bunch, Bones! you are just so lovable Bones…I gave you waht you wanted!

I find it funny how some are displeased with the USA’s “cleaning the decks” and have little criticism for Islamists who ALSO “clean the decks” of infidels–like in Somalia, or (less recently) Andalusia, or Bethlehem, or …

Don’t y’all running after these islamists!

my my.

Yes, of course…my, my!!!:juggle:

Are they going blind or just dotty in their aging processes?

Aren’t we all aging!!!

 

[redmars3000]

What is interesting is that you would use national catholic reporter as a viable source. It doesn’t really matter if he only had 4 of them to call you out on, the fact that you used them to begin with taints any credibility of the others, therefore tainting the credibility of your argument.

 

[Shoshana]

What is interesting is that you would use national catholic reporter as a viable source.

Please forgive me I am not american…our catholic register is not, on the whole, a liberal paper.

It doesn’t really matter if he only had 4 of them to call you out on, the fact that you used them to begin with taints any credibility of the others, therefore tainting the credibility of your argument.

Hogwash! You tell that to Zenit, Catholic News, Catholic leader, and see how far you go!!! It is this kind of nonsensical argument that makes one wonder about why communication is not possible with people who are blinded by nationalism!

 

[CHCatholic]

I’m sure glad that the European Union grants him permission to say such things. Anyway, we should all look to England for wonderful examples of how to treat your neighbors, like the Scotch and Irish.

Past sins are said and done with. That kind of logic is used with the Church and the crusades. It works emotionally not logically .

Actually, if you read one of the current Pope’s book, “Without Roots,” You would know that he says it is not his place to make judgments about the Iraq War being moral or immoral because that would step outside the boundaries of theology. He certainly has said that the situation needs to be improved, but that is far from saying the initial action was unjust. So we are free to make our own judgements.

PP Benedict wrote that book when he was still a Cardinal, not when he was Pope. His job as Cardinal was theology and only theology. If a Pope’s job were to be theology and only theology, how far would he get caring spiritually for the 1 billion members of the Church?

Comparing abortion to the War in Iraq? Apples and Oranges.

Not when the slaughter of innocent people is involved.

War can be just. Therefore not all war is wrong

I couldn’t agree more and I’m all for the war in Afghanistan…but not one in Iraq built on a lie of WMDs…funny how you guys didn’t find any than suddenly started saying this war was all about bringing stability to Iraq

You realize your “blind American Nationalism” comments dont make you any friends over here? It makes you sound like one of the rabid anti-American crowd. I’m not saying you are, just that your comments sound like it. The truth is without the U.S., Europe would have lost to the Nazies, Or the Soviets. No equivocating there.

Couldn’t care less about making friends. I have the Church and I honestly couldn’t care less about what Americans think of me. Not to be crass or anything, but what good is it to me? Only loyalty I have in this world is to the Church and thus God.

The thing that is interesting about the Red Army too, is that they kept all the land they “liberated” from the Nazies. I think that is called conquering, Why do you lump us in the same category?

Doesn’t matter what the Red Army did with the land, point is America wasn’t the only power fighting the war nor were they the ones to outrightly win the war. A point lost on many Americans due to their pride and severe love of country. All Allied powers were lumped into the same category…the Allies. You, Us, The Red Army, the Poles, etc.

Since you posed the question first: Where do you stand on abortion and contraception since “assuming you’re a Catholic in good standing” , you decided to use it as a hammer against your opponent to make him seem a hypocrite?

Nope, I’m just wondering how Catholics can be so willfully ignorant of what the Church has to say when it comes to the Iraq War

You certainly are reinforcing stereo-types that Americans have about you and your countrymen.

Pardon me while I go bathe my beaver eh.

 

[Robert_Bay]

GENERAL REMINDER

Participants are strongly reminded that charity is essential to our discussions here.

If you wish to review the subject, please see Charity for specifics, or CAF rules for an overview, both of which are located in the Rules of the Road sub-forum.

Also, it aids the discussion of a controversial topic if you can make a citation and preferably link to any item you reference in your discussion to back up your points.

And lastly: **Discussion is welcomed and encouraged. **

Thank you.

 

[He_Man]

^^ Thread killer

 

[redmars3000]

Shoshana

I said the National Catholic Reporter was a flawed source.
I’m in college. We are taught that using tainted sources is one of the worst things you can do to support an argument and if a professor were to do the same, it would probably be the end of his reputation. You can call it hogwash if you want but your attitude towards this certainly is not that of academia.

And what is all this about being “blinded by nationalism?”

 

[redmars3000]

Past sins are said and done with. That kind of logic is used with the Church and the crusades. It works emotionally not logically .

PP Benedict wrote that book when he was still a Cardinal, not when he was Pope. His job as Cardinal was theology and only theology. If a Pope’s job were to be theology and only theology, how far would he get caring spiritually for the 1 billion members of the Church?

You still didnt answer my argument. If Ratzinger said that, as a theologan, he could not state whether the war was immoral or not, what right then do you have to imply that another Catholic is a hypocrite for thinking that the Iraq war is a just war?

I couldn’t agree more and I’m all for the war in Afghanistan…but not one in Iraq built on a lie of WMDs…funny how you guys didn’t find any than suddenly started saying this war was all about bringing stability to Iraq.

I never said bringing stability to Iraq was the original reason for the war. You say though that the war was begun because George Bush lied. Where is your evidence that George Bush lied? The burden of proof is on the accuser.

 

[Shoshana]

Shoshana

I’m in college. We are taught that using tainted sources is one of the worst things you can do to support an argument and if a professor were to do the same, it would probably be the end of his reputation. You can call it hogwash if you want but your attitude towards this certainly is not that of academia.

I appreciate what you are telling me. If I would have been taught that, well, that would have been a different story. BUT I am not academic and I did not know about the national catholic register! If I would’ve known, I would have not used that link. Zenit and the others are excellent sources of references. My blumber does not take away their integrity.

Thank you for sharing that though…

 

[gilliam]

There are two publications I think you guys are talking about:

The National Catholic Register which IMHO tries to stay loyal to the Catholic teaching and the National Catholic Reporter which finds itself frequently at odds with Catholic teaching.

I hope this helps.

 

[redmars3000]

There are two publications I think you guys are talking about:

The National Catholic Register which IMHO tries to stay loyal to the Catholic teaching and the National Catholic Reporter which finds itself frequently at odds with Catholic teaching.

I hope this helps.

Yes, I was not talking about the Register, I was talking about the National Catholic Reporter.

 

[Shoshana]

There are two publications I think you guys are talking about:

The National Catholic Register which IMHO tries to stay loyal to the Catholic teaching and the National Catholic Reporter which finds itself frequently at odds with Catholic teaching.

I hope this helps.

Thank you gilliam!