US servicewomen challenge combat role ban

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t believe that to be true. There are female Sergeants Major and Master Gunnery Sergeants, and female Generals, in the Marine Corps. All without serving in a combat MOS.

But they are attached to a combat unit in the middle east which is where these women are seeing combat, due to iinsurgent style of combat which brought women to the front lines. I don’t see dishonor in that. So what is it they seek?

 

[tomarin]

But having elected officials, who are under no requirement to have ever served, in charge of the military and sending it into combat is ok?

Yes, unless you’re willing to countenance a military coup.

 

[jimmy]

I pointed out that they are in the higher ranks; however, I agree with you. If they are not physically and mentally capable of what those men are doing, they shouldn’t be in the same position.

In my husband’s situation, the men at his rank, in his MOS, all needed to fill billets in infantry battalions for their careers. The women were able to skip that step, in some cases filling billets rated for higher ranking Marines. This did not adversely affect their career, but they didn’t have to do the same jobs as their male counterparts in order to advance.

And people talk about sexism as if women are at a disadvantage in life? What a joke.

Can a woman become a general? I think it is pretty nonsensical to have someone, who has never fought in combat commanding troops and making decisions about combat.

 

[tomarin]

And people talk about sexism as if women are at a disadvantage in life? What a joke.

I’ve even seen people holding doors open for them.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So I may be able to trust your post if I know your position on revoking “don’t ask don’t tell”.

I fully agree with this and I consider it an accomplishment in the Obama administration.

I do see a potential difference between accepting gays and accepting women in combat roles.

So your response on that will tell me where you are coming from.

Don’t ask don’t tell has it’s problems as well.

Fraternization between troops, will always cause a break-down in unit cohesiveness and there is no way to avoid this, especially with men and women serving in the same combat unit.

Other parts of the military, a unit won’t have the life and death effects as a infantry combat unit, but then, those other parts of the military are usually in support of the infantry units, so it could effect overall military effectiveness.

Jim

 

[jimmy]

But having elected officials, who are under no requirement to have ever served, in charge of the military and sending it into combat is ok?

There is one elected official (the president) that has authority over the military as far as I am aware. I wouldn’t necessarily say that is ok either, but at the same timr the job of the president isn’t restricted to commander in chief. A general though is strictly a military official. There is no reason to justify having someone as a general who never fought in combat.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But they are attached to a combat unit in the middle east which is where these women are seeing combat, due to iinsurgent style of combat which brought women to the front lines. I don’t see dishonor in that. So what is it they seek?

They’re seeing limited combat.

As it was, we saw the disaster when Jessica Lynch’s convoy unit was ambushed and one soldier got into the fire fight while the others ran for cover.

The media was quick to make Jessica the hero, when in fact, she hadn’t fired a shot, but instead, PFC Miller(I think that’s his name) got into the fight before being taken prisoner.

Jim

 

[jimmy]

I’ve even seen people holding doors open for them.

For women, or for female officers?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

And people talk about sexism as if women are at a disadvantage in life? What a joke.

Can a woman become a general? I think it is pretty nonsensical to have someone, who has never fought in combat commanding troops and making decisions about combat.

Well generally I agree, but Eisenhower didn’t have combat experience.

However, I’ll trust a male’s judgment on combat operations over a females, anyday.

Men have the natural instinct to kill the enemy. Women have the natural instinct to nurture and reason with an opponent.

Sorry if this upsets anyone, but it’s a fact of life we have to start accepting.

Jim

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Yes, unless you’re willing to countenance a military coup.

Avoids the question. We aren’t talking about the political ramifications of my question, we’re talking about the idea that only those who have or could have been in combat being able to hold high rank in the military. The “top of the food chain” in the military is the President. Under the other poster’s argument, a President who didn’t serve in combat shouldn’t be in charge of the military. His argument would also disqualify any male soldier who has not been in combat from the higher ranks as well.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

And with that in mind, they shouldn’t be in the higher ranks of the military. They cant fight in combat so they shouldn’t have higher ranks in the military, and they shouldn’t fight in combat because they are incapable of it. It may be tough to hear, but that is how it should be.

Too late. Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper, God bless her!

 

[tomarin]

For women, or for female officers?

I meant civilian women, but I was being a wee bit facetious.

 

[Bezant]

But they aren’t in the combat positions that are being discussed in the article. They are in support roles.

Raising the question that if women qualify for some combat positions, why not others – especially if they are already, as the law suit alleges, serving unofficially in some units.

I also posted a link to an article where women were asked to volunteer for the infantry officer course. Two volunteered, neither completed it.

It’s not surprising – at least third of the men withdrew as well.

The article also points to other likely reasons the programme attracted so few female volunteers:

Only new female lieutenants are offered the chance to volunteer for the Infantry Officer Course. This has upset some senior female officers, who say they would jump at the chance and might better handle the stress of being the only woman in an intense, all-male environment than brand-new female officers.

The senior women attribute the lack of female volunteers to the fact that they would not be assigned to infantry jobs even if they complete the course. Successful candidates would have to return to their previously assigned jobs.

 

[jimmy]

I meant civilian women, but I was being a wee bit facetious.

I figured there was a joke in it, I was determining who it was on. What a joke it would be to hold a door for a female officer.

 

[jimmy]

Too late. Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper, God bless her!

May God have mercy on us.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It’s not surprising – at least third of the men withdrew as well.

But 2/3rds of the men went through it, which is a far higher ratio than the women who didn’t volunteer.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The issue isn’t whether women can physically handle serving in a combat unit. I have no doubt some could.

However, it has to do with unit morale and cohesiveness.

Serving in an infantry combat unit is dangerous, and being such, dangerous jobs like being on point, are shared.

Now consider that you have women in a combat unit, and Mary is attracted to the platoon Sergent and they end up in a romantic relationship. Now, the unit is sent out on patrol, is he going to put his sweetheart on point? Then consider, the relationship falls apart, and Mary now is going out with PFC Brown. Now the unit goes out on patrol and the now jealous platoon sergeant wants to get rid of PFC Brown, so he constantly chooses him for point and other more dangerous assignments.

Now even if the platoon sergeant doesn’t become jealous and doesn’t make PFC Brown do more than anyone else, the platoon will have the knowledge of the former affair between Mary and the sergeant and will always be suspicious of his motives.

I saw it happened in non-combat units where affairs between women co-workers and managers went on and the woman received special favors that the others didn’t get.

I saw it happen way back when I was a young teen in Drum and Bugle Corps, when we went from an all male corps to a mixed gender corps. When the girls came in, the unit bonding between the members fell apart an we even lost the top horn players because the affair he was having with one of the females fell apart and he couldn’t stand seeing her with another member of the corps.

If you believe this won’t happen, you have chosen to ignore the biological chemistry that goes on between males and females and I have to wonder what planet you come from where this doesn’t happen?

Jim

 

[oldcatholicguy]

The issue isn’t whether women can physically handle serving in a combat unit. I have no doubt some could.

However, it has to do with unit morale and cohesiveness.

Serving in an infantry combat unit is dangerous, and being such, dangerous jobs like being on point, are shared.

Now consider that you have women in a combat unit, and Mary is attracted to the platoon Sergent and they end up in a romantic relationship. Now, the unit is sent out on patrol, is he going to put his sweetheart on point? Then consider, the relationship falls apart, and Mary now is going out with PFC Brown. Now the unit goes out on patrol and the now jealous platoon sergeant wants to get rid of PFC Brown, so he constantly chooses him for point and other more dangerous assignments.

Now even if the platoon sergeant doesn’t become jealous and doesn’t make PFC Brown do more than anyone else, the platoon will have the knowledge of the former affair between Mary and the sergeant and will always be suspicious of his motives.

I saw it happened in non-combat units where affairs between women co-workers and managers went on and the woman received special favors that the others didn’t get.

I saw it happen way back when I was a young teen in Drum and Bugle Corps, when we went from an all male corps to a mixed gender corps. When the girls came in, the unit bonding between the members fell apart an we even lost the top horn players because the affair he was having with one of the females fell apart and he couldn’t stand seeing her with another member of the corps.

If you believe this won’t happen, you have chosen to ignore the biological chemistry that goes on between males and females and I have to wonder what planet you come from where this doesn’t happen?

Jim

I had a similar experience with the mixed gender MP platoon attached to my unit.

 

[Maxirad]

Go to the 0:42 mark in this video to see Matthew McAuliff cover the story.

 

[Bezant]

But 2/3rds of the men went through it, which is a far higher ratio than the women who didn’t volunteer.

Jim

There are of course more men in the services and more incentives for men to complete the programme.

If only two women volunteer for a programme with a high drop-out rate, it’s neither surprising that both drop out nor enough to argue from that result that women are incapable of completing it.