VA Tech Shooting: What can we possibly do?

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yes, there is a reason the university could not compel him to get professional help. If an adult is not actually engaged in behavior that poses an immediate threat to himself or others the police and the courts are powerless to act. The parents, family, employer, school etc. also have no standing when it comes to an adult. The very most that can happen is that he can be held for observation for 72 hours, then he must be released unless evaluation shows there is some danger. It sounds from published reports as if he was held on this basis at least twice before. You cannot hold someone against their will for any longer unless the evaluation makes a diagnosis that finds he is a danger. Even in that case he must in most cases be treated for up to 6 weeks and then released unless he has shown no improvement. We have a schizophrenic family member who is now in his 30s, and every few months a family members has to fly to wherever he is, bail him out, pay for the damage he has done, take him out of rehab, fill his prescription, find him a place to live, until the next time he goes off his meds. “The System” is broke and does need to be fixed.
I understand what you’re saying but students have been kicked out of dorms for lesser offences than he reportedly committed (especially the fire). Not that I think being expelled from the dorm would have been the kindest thing that could have happened to him, but surely the threat of that happening might have propelled him to seek treatment.
 
Interesting information Peri and Vern.

I suppose I’m just looking at starting with the notion that one may be trying to encourage “Teachers” to be swayed into realizing in some cases, defense of there kids starts with them. They should be in charge of the classes. And what type of training for hopefully rare emergency situations is reasonable to them?

I just have a hard time seeing the bulk of teachers willing to be open to a firearms. As opposed to a non-lethal option,

To be frank, I have no problem with guns. Had a license to carry myself (in Massachusetts) for years. Though after marriage, my wife begged to sell the revolver I had. And did. Though now that our kids are all just about grown up and moving on in life she has less reason to be nervous. I was going to get her down to a shooting range to show her the value of firearms…

But Hey, may be I’m wrong may be more teachers than not may be open to carrying a firearm?
 
No. Jesus is saying the one is more important than the other, however, according to various commentators. The ‘sword’ - the Word of God - is even more important to have than the cloak on your back. The use of ‘sell/buy’ is one way of showing that. It’s not too hard to believe Jesus was speaking allegorically here, given that he did just that most of the rest of the time.

It’s reasonable to assume that the Apostles had missed the point entirely yet again, and Jesus’ ‘that is enough!’ is a ‘oh, you’ve missed the point yet again, but I don’t have the time to explain it now’. Read this one

professingprofessor.blogspot.com/2006/03/sword-talk.html

for example.

I’m not denying that you can interpret these four verses out of context as meaning just what you want it to mean. But in the context of the whole of the Gospels, I don’t believe it makes sense to take it literally.
The one problem with this arguement is that while Jesus spoke in parable to the crowds, scripture tells us that He explained everything in detail when speaking to the twleve and that explaination was recorded in scripture… If the “sword” was not to be taken literally, then the great teacher would have corrected the Apostles when they brought the two swords to Him and explained what He meant. Since no explaination is recorded, their understanding of it being literal swords was correct.
 
The Bishops seem to disagree.
If the bishops disagree with the CCC, which represents the official teaching of the Church, then they are wrong and the CCC tells us that we have a GRAVE duty to protect ourselves and others from death and serious injury. If limits are place on how we are to do that, then the duty can not be considered “grave” but the CCC tells us that it IS “grave”. Therefore, no limits can be place upon that duty and that extends to the use of firearms for that purpose.
 
Interesting information Peri and Vern.

I suppose I’m just looking at starting with the notion that one may be trying to encourage “Teachers” to be swayed into realizing in some cases, defense of there kids starts with them. They should be in charge of the classes. And what type of training for hopefully rare emergency situations is reasonable to them?

I just have a hard time seeing the bulk of teachers willing to be open to a firearms. As opposed to a non-lethal option,

To be frank, I have no problem with guns. Had a license to carry myself (in Massachusetts) for years. Though after marriage, my wife begged to sell the revolver I had. And did. Though now that our kids are all just about grown up and moving on in life she has less reason to be nervous. I was going to get her down to a shooting range to show her the value of firearms…

But Hey, may be I’m wrong may be more teachers than not may be open to carrying a firearm?
I hope you do take your wife to a range and let her learn about firearms and shooting. My husband and I go about once a week and use various guns to test our skill. It is perfectly safe. As a matter of fact, this club has a very active kids program and the kids participate in shooting matches all over the country. The top shooter in the division is a member of the club and it is a female.
Shooting instructors will tell you that women

When our kids were young the guns were kept securely locked but they were made familiar with guns, how they worked, how to hold them safely, etc. And they always knew the Eddie Eagle saying "if you see a firearm, don’t touch, leave the area and tell an adult.

But all this falls on deaf ears when those who know nothing about guns make up their minds that no one should own firearms.
 
I understand what you’re saying but students have been kicked out of dorms for lesser offences than he reportedly committed (especially the fire). Not that I think being expelled from the dorm would have been the kindest thing that could have happened to him, but surely the threat of that happening might have propelled him to seek treatment.
I wonder if someone that mentally ill would ever realize that he needed help.
 
The one problem with this arguement is that while Jesus spoke in parable to the crowds, scripture tells us that He explained everything in detail when speaking to the twleve and that explaination was recorded in scripture… If the “sword” was not to be taken literally, then the great teacher would have corrected the Apostles when they brought the two swords to Him and explained what He meant. Since no explaination is recorded, their understanding of it being literal swords was correct.
But those doofus Apostles, who were chosen by Jesus, lived with Jesus, traveled with Him, ate with Him, spoke the same language He spoke, they couldn’t understand what Jesus meant.

But MikeWM, now, he understands what Jesus meant.:whacky:
 
The link is an Excel spreadsheet on the British Home Office website (Table 5.01 of the British Crime Survey). It opens in my Internet Explorer. You might have to download the file instead.
That’s what I was thinking it is. The British Crime Survey is a survey that the government sends out to people asking them about how crime has affected them. It’s kind of like a census. That’s different from actual reported crimes to the police.

We don’t do that kind of survey in the US so we have no way of knowing how it would compare to the UK.
 
And, as shown above, when you factor in all types of violent crimes, England is 7 times MORE violent.
If you are comparing the British Crime Survey to actual FBI statistics, they are apples and brussel sprouts. One is a compilation of answers to a census-like question and one is real reported crime statistice.

If the UK is more violent than the US, I need to see actual statistics to back that up. We’ve never done a survey like that in the US.
 
If you are comparing the British Crime Survey to actual FBI statistics, they are apples and brussel sprouts. One is a compilation of answers to a census-like question and one is real reported crime statistice.

If the UK is more violent than the US, I need to see actual statistics to back that up. We’ve never done a survey like that in the US.
In fact, we have done them. Google names like Lott and Keck.
 
The one problem with this arguement is that while Jesus spoke in parable to the crowds, scripture tells us that He explained everything in detail when speaking to the twleve and that explaination was recorded in scripture… If the “sword” was not to be taken literally, then the great teacher would have corrected the Apostles when they brought the two swords to Him and explained what He meant. Since no explaination is recorded, their understanding of it being literal swords was correct.
It’s an interesting point, and well worth musing over. It may be worth saying though that Jesus did use analogies, and then explain them when it confused his apostles. He may well not have had time to explain that one fully; it wasn’t exactly a usual night, after all. The NAB footnote on the USCCB website does say explicitly
It is enough!: the farewell discourse ends abruptly with these words of Jesus spoken to the disciples when they take literally what was intended as figurative language about being prepared to face the world’s hostility.
(emphasis mine)

usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke22.htm

It’s clear that the interpretation isn’t necessarily as obvious as some would make it out to be.

Mike
 
But those doofus Apostles, who were chosen by Jesus, lived with Jesus, traveled with Him, ate with Him, spoke the same language He spoke, they couldn’t understand what Jesus meant.
Vern, I’m quite sure you know the Gospels better than I do. You know as well as I the number of times Jesus berates his apostles for not following what he is talking about. It’s a lot.
But MikeWM, now, he understands what Jesus meant.:whacky:
Actually, you’re the one saying ‘this means this, and nothing else’. I’m saying there is doubt, and indeed there is much doubt. Biblical commentaries show there is a lot of confusion over what these words are intended to mean, and various interpretations can be put on it. In context of the whole of the rest of the Gospels, where there is doubt I choose the interpretation that I think fits the best, but I freely admit that this is my (reasonably informed) opinion and other interpretations are possible.

Mike
 
If you are comparing the British Crime Survey to actual FBI statistics, they are apples and brussel sprouts. One is a compilation of answers to a census-like question and one is real reported crime statistice.

If the UK is more violent than the US, I need to see actual statistics to back that up. We’ve never done a survey like that in the US.
So what you are saying that the British people have experienced MORE crime than has been reported to police

Not suprising, that’s true for most situations.

So if you want to compare ‘apples to apples’ BCS table 7a shows the rate of reported crime, it’s 2300 per 100,000. That’s FIVE TIMES LARGER than the US rate.

homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hosb1206chap78.pdf
 
It’s an interesting point, and well worth musing over. It may be worth saying though that Jesus did use analogies, and then explain them when it confused his apostles. He may well not have had time to explain that one fully; it wasn’t exactly a usual night, after all. The NAB footnote on the USCCB website does say explicitly

(emphasis mine)

usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke22.htm

It’s clear that the interpretation isn’t necessarily as obvious as some would make it out to be.

Mike
Don’t forget that the scriptures were written many years after these events took place. At which point Jesus had opened their minds to His teachings and the Holy Spirit had also decended upon them. Thus, at the time that the scriptures were being written, they had to be in full understanding of Christ’s teachings.

If they weren’t, then we would have to doubt anything and everything that they said.

That being the case (they were in full understanding of Christ’s teachings), they would have clarified this point as they had clarified every other point that Jesus made. Scripture has to be consistent with itself. That is how the church decided what was to go into the bible and what was to kept out of it.

The reason no further clarification was made was because it wasn’t needed … Jesus meant what He said – He was referring to an actual sword!
 
You think an untrained teacher would be allowed to have a gun? And there is no reason why the teacher could not have a carry permit. It does not need to be worn western style. There are lots of ways to carry a gun that no one can tell. A massacre prone individual may get to a few people, but the armed teacher could dispatch him/her before more damage was done.
Israeli teachers and any adults working in their schools are trained and armed.

We could easily replicate the Israeli model. They haven’t had a single attack on their schools since they adopted this policy.

The one exception was a group of school-children who were visited the “Zone of Peace” on the Jordanian border. The Jordanians specifically requested that the Israeli teachers and chaperones leave their weapons behind … and the kids were murdered by an Arab gunman.

But I suppose that Mike would have us believe that the teachers in the UK are too incompetent to be trusted with anything dangerous.
 
Vern, I’m quite sure you know the Gospels better than I do. You know as well as I the number of times Jesus berates his apostles for not following what he is talking about. It’s a lot.
And you know that He** didn’t** berate them this time. Nor did He explain to them that He had some other meaning in mind – which He always did whenever they misunderstood Him.
Actually, you’re the one saying ‘this means this, and nothing else’.
Kind of like saying, “Black means black, and not white?”😃
I’m saying there is doubt, and indeed there is much doubt.
No, there isn’t. There are those who want Jesus to say something other than what He said, and are quite to pretend He meant “white” when He said “black” – but that doesn’t amount to “doubt.”
Biblical commentaries show there is a lot of confusion over what these words are intended to mean, and various interpretations can be put on it. In context of the whole of the rest of the Gospels, where there is doubt I choose the interpretation that I think fits the best,
Riiiight.

Those doofus Apostles, whom He selected, who spoke the same language He spoke, whom He taught, who ate with Him, traveled about with Him, and knew him personally – they didn’t know what He meant. But you’re smarter than them and you know.
but I freely admit that this is my (reasonably informed) opinion and other interpretations are possible.

Mike
So He could have meant what they understood Him to mean? An understanding He didn’t object to, or give an alternate explanation for? The same understanding that they had after Pentecost?

So when He said, “White,” maybe He actually meant “white” and not “black?”😃
 
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