VA Tech Shooting: What can we possibly do?

[jmcrae]

How practical and useful would it be for schools (all ages, from pre-school through college) to lock the doors of their classrooms once the class starts?

This kid was a registered student at the school - he didn’t break in. Locking the doors would not have protected the kids in his own class, although it might have protected others.

But, even so, say you lock all the doors, and only the teacher can open it - then the next emergency is a FIRE or a GAS LEAK, and they all die because the guy with the key passed out from the fumes.

Or else the next thing that happens is a weirdo molests a group of girls in class, and nobody notices that anything was wrong because the door was closed and locked, as usual.

Another problem with this kind of reaction is that it normalizes this kind of behaviour. It’s kind of like letting them win.

 

[Tom317]

Evil does exist that’s not even an argument here; but only God can see the heart so only He knows who’s good and who’s evil. I can only know what’s good and what’s evil. There is a difference…

In certain sections of our cathechism we see that culpability for certain sins is diminished based on certain circumstances/characteristics of the sinner. Why would that be if doing evil automatically made someone an evil person?

There is a difference between sinful people (all of us) doing a sinful act, versus a person who plans to do a truly deeply evil act. A person can commit adultery without being an evil person (though the mortal sin of adultery still holds fast). Yet, if that adulerer planned his sin, then executed that sin without concern for anyone around him or for God, then he has an evil heart–there is no getting around that. Now, many of us at one time or another might very well have a heart filled with some evil, making us at that time an evil person (think St. Paul here), yet God help us see our evil heart and urge us to change (think St. Paul again).

People can be evil, they do not need to stay evil, they can repent and ask for forgiveness through sacramental confession and be washed clean. It is not impossible that the VA killer repented before he pulled tghe trigger, I hope he did–truly. Yet, since we cannot know if he repented, we can only know what he did, and what he did can only be done by an evil heart and mind.

 

[seekerz]

What can we possibly do?

If you study the profiles of the mass murderers (school and workplace shooters, not serial killers), they almost always share two common traits:

1. They were bullied and/or made fun of for a long time.
2. They suffered from depression or some other mental illness.

So it seems to me that since these traits are present in every school/workplace killer, we need to start with those two things and do something about them.

1. Take a hard stand against bullies in our schools from a very young age. All too often, teachers step back, stay out of the way, and encourage peer mediation" to work out the conflicts. This is nonsense. This is no way to deal with bullies.

Bullies need to be STOPPED by someone stronger than them. Teachers and others who work with children should NOT allow any bullying, and bullies should be REMOVED and relocated somewhere and dealt with firmly.

In my opinion, bullies are not killers themselves, but they bear the guilt for creating killers. It is never the bully who becomes a school killer, it is the bully’s VICTIM who kills in retaliation for all the humiliation of many years.

It is very hard–and I know from personal experience–to be made fun of day after day. Well-meaning adults try to teach children to “be proud of who you are” and "you’re special (even if you’re ugly or fat or poor or stupid or not athetic or nerdy).

This kind of “Self Esteem Training” doesn’t work. A skillful bully can totally dismantle the self-esteem of the most well-adjusted child.

Ladies, how many times have you been walking down the street, feeling good about yourself, and all of a sudden, some jerk yells out his car window, “WOOF WOOF!”

A little dog bark, and you feel like the ugliest woman on earth. Most of us shrug it off, but if it keeps happening day after day after day, and you can’t fix whatever it is in you that is causing men to say this about you, then you have been reduced to a pile of poop.

Names HURT TERRIBLY! Developing a thicker skin isn’t the answer. STOPPING THE BULLY is the answer.

And yes, I do think the bully needs to be dealt with in such a way as to re-train him/her not to be a bully. I’m not saying that they should be put in a chicken shack and beaten twice a day. My point is that we need to stop bullies BEFORE they create killers.

1. Pediatricians need to screen children for mental and emotional illnesses. Even many poor children in the U.S. receive examinations from doctors. From the very youngest agest, pediatricians and other medical personnel need to look for signs of depression and other disorders and recommend courses of treatment for these children.

I realize that mental and emotional illness in children is not well-researched. Well, it should be. We’ve seen too many “disturbed” children killing other children. It’s time that we tried to help those who are mentally ill rather than waiting until they blow up.

**I think it’s possible that those who become school and work killers were possibly bullied, but because of their mental/emotional illness, were unable to process that bullying and deal with it in a healthy way. So in my opinion, screening for mental illness goes hand in hand with stopping bullies. **

Great suggestion. And it’s not just overt bullying but the pressure to conform and to be popular which results in rejection of the “different”; the former can be outlawed, the latter requires moral guidance by responsible adults.

Good post. One has to see the real problem before being able to do something effective to solve it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Oh Vern, I love doing this back and forth with you sometimes but you really should read all I say. My point (which you quoted) was with regard to preventing future incidents: if someone is determined they’ll find a way - any way - to achieve their ends.

But that’s not what you said.

And if you had said it, I would have pointed out what a silly idea that is – that we can’t take any precautions unless they will answer for all situations we may face.

We can’t have seatbelts or airbags because they won’t save us from being blown up, or killed by some noxious substance. we can’t have smoke detectors or fire extinguishers, because they won’t save us from being blown up or shot.

Isn’t that silly?

Why wait for a situation to develop then try to deal with it? Why not try to find a way to prevent people from even getting to the stage that they’d consider doing something like this?

And until we accomplish that – a goal we’re been striving for all my considerable life – why not let each individual make his own choice about what safety precautions he wishes to take – including carrying a gun?

Or to put it another way, we can’t do that by next Tuesday. But I can get a concealed handgun permit by then.

really knew[/I]

this guy on a personal level. While that may be hard for his family and friends, that’s exactly the kind of exchange which could help us develop better “red flags” and come up with better strategies that could help prevent future tragedies.

Who’s “we?”

You can be sure police and security authorities are looking into that.

 

[Cat]

Interesting that so many people, including my husband, are opposed to locking doors.

Again, I do understand that if the killer were already in the room, it would not prevent him or her from killing those in the room.

In the U.S., we take precautions against crime that most people do not consider excessive.

We lock the doors to our homes, buy burglar-proof windows (if we can afford them), lock our garages, put our purses in lockers, don’t carry too much cash, don’t go to an ATM at night, etc.

As a woman, I’ve just gotten used to doing certain safety precautions. If I have to walk out to my car at the hospital (where I work) at night, I will ask an escort to accompany me.

I pay attention while I walk to my car day and night. Before I approach my car, I look underneath it to see if anyone is hiding. I check the back seats of my van before I get in. I LOCK THE DOORS, even before I have settled into my seat. (Makes my husband mad, because if I’m driving, I often lock the doors before he has time to climb into his seat!).

If I ever felt like I was being followed, I wouldn’t drive home, I would drive to the police dept.

Several times, when online forums have creepy characters posting, I have alerted the monitors. Once on an online board (not this one, another Christian board, Protestant), I called the FBI. (The poster was constantly hinting about women who liked to be raped, no matter what the subject.)

I don’t consider all of these precautions as imprisoning. I consider them sensible.

So to me, it’s very sensible to lock the doors of a classroom. Sensible and cheap compared to installing some kind of futuristic and probably worthless alarm system.

 

[SFLCatholic]

After reading the most recent news accounts, it seems like this guy was possessed.

Anyone else think so?

 

[jmcrae]

So to me, it’s very sensible to lock the doors of a classroom. Sensible and cheap compared to installing some kind of futuristic and probably worthless alarm system.

If the guy has a gun, he can blow through a locked door. Locked doors are only a bit more difficult to open than open doors. For civilized people, a locked door is a signal that you are not wanted, so don’t go in.

But for people who already think it’s okay to kill people, a locked door isn’t going to do anything except slow down or stop the civilized people from escaping.

Quite honestly I think the only reason locking our doors at night discourages burglars is because burglars are still civilized enough to understand/assume that a locked door means “Keep Out,” and at some inner, unquestioned level of their consciousness, they respect that. But if someone wants to get through a locked door, they will. If they have a gun, they can shoot the hinges off, or blow a hole in the middle of it. They don’t even need to break the lock.

 

[jmcrae]

After reading the most recent news accounts, it seems like this guy was possessed.

Anyone else think so?

I think he was terribly depressed and angry, to the point of serious mental illness.

 

[vern_humphrey]

So it only takes an hour to get trained to use a gun?

I think you are underestimating the psychology.

Are you an expert in firearms and self defense?

Perhaps you see a gun as strictly a useful machine. You are not attaching any emotional baggage to it.

What is your experience with firearms and self-defense situations?

For many of us who haven’t been brought up with weapons, especially pistols, there is a whole lot more to it than that. There are ethical issues: could I actually use this gun to kill someone? Do I have the strength, the courage, the guts?

How do you know this? What is your experience?

I don’t know if I could. Perhaps if it were my children being threatened. Even then, I would be so afraid of jumping to conclusions and killing an innocent person.

I’m sorry, it’s not that simple, sir or ma’am.

I do agree that those who choose to carry a gun should be free to do that. I don’t think I would choose to carry a gun.

If you choose not to carry a weapon, that’s your right. But do not seek to dictate to other people what their choice should be.

 

[mary_bobo]

So it only takes an hour to get trained to use a gun?

No. If you take a gun safety course, particularly one for a CC permit, part of the test is at a range actually shooting.

I think you are underestimating the psychology.

Perhaps you see a gun as strictly a useful machine. You are not attaching any emotional baggage to it.

For many of us who haven’t been brought up with weapons, especially pistols, there is a whole lot more to it than that. There are ethical issues: could I actually use this gun to kill someone? Do I have the strength, the courage, the guts?

A good gun safety instructor will tell you that if you think you could never use the weapon, don’t have it You are to use it if you feel immediately threatened. In such a situation, adrenalin will kick in and you will do what you have been trained to do.

I don’t know if I could. Perhaps if it were my children being threatened. Even then, I would be so afraid of jumping to conclusions and killing an innocent person.

I understand your concern, but if someone is in your home uninvited, I don’t think that would be considered as firing on an innocent person.

I am not encouraging you to own a firearm, but consider that people are often afraid of things they do not know about as you have said above. It’s a personal decision.

I’m sorry, it’s not that simple, sir or ma’am.

I do agree that those who choose to carry a gun should be free to do that. I don’t think I would choose to carry a gun.

 

[Sir_Knight]

So it only takes an hour to get trained to use a gun?

I could train a complete novice in one hour how to safely handle a firearm.

I think you are underestimating the psychology.

I’m not talking about ANY psychology.

Perhaps you see a gun as strictly a useful machine.

That’s what a gun is – not more and no less.

You are not attaching any emotional baggage to it.

What emotional baggage?

For many of us who haven’t been brought up with weapons, especially pistols, there is a whole lot more to it than that.

No there isn’t. I’ve taught safe firearms operations to folks in about an hour.

There are ethical issues: could I actually use this gun to kill someone? Do I have the strength, the courage, the guts?

I don’t know if I could.

The CCC teaches us that we have a grave DUTY to protect ourselves AND other innocent individuals from serious injury and death even if it requires us to KILL the attacker.

Perhaps if it were my children being threatened.

perhaps? Perhaps?? PERHAPS??? You would hesitate to protect your own children???

Even then, I would be so afraid of jumping to conclusions and killing an innocent person.

Jumping to what wrong conclusions? Help me out here but this doesn’t seem that complicated to me. If someone is shooting at unarmed individuals who are attempting to run away, it’s pretty clear who is the innocent and who isn’t.

 

[mary_bobo]

As a history buff, I have always been amazed that the first thing the nazi regime did was remove personal arms. We can have marshalls on airplanes, why not on campus. And how about screening the students. Why does a profile like this terrorist get ignored by administration?

I don’t think it is fair to say that the administration did nothing. The head of the English Dept. at VT took the student out of class with the other kids and tutored him individualy because some of the students in the class were afraid of him. In today’s society we cannot do anything to students in schools who behave this way for fear of law suits. As others have mentioned, somehow the teachers should be impowered to discipline the bullies in the elementary grades, and above, and be able to dismiss them permanently for the school. As it is now, a teacher reprimands little Johnny, and little Johnny’s parents come running, threatening to sue.

 

[seekerz]

But that’s not what you said.

And if you had said it, I would have pointed out what a silly idea that is – that we can’t take any precautions unless they will answer for all situations we may face.

We can’t have seatbelts or airbags because they won’t save us from being blown up, or killed by some noxious substance. we can’t have smoke detectors or fire extinguishers, because they won’t save us from being blown up or shot.

Isn’t that silly?

And until we accomplish that – a goal we’re been striving for all my considerable life – why not let each individual make his own choice about what safety precautions he wishes to take – including carrying a gun?

Or to put it another way, we can’t do that by next Tuesday. But I can get a concealed handgun permit by then.

Who’s “we?”

You can be sure police and security authorities are looking into that.

Vern, carry your little toys if it will make you feel better, change the laws if they don’t allow you to, I don’t care. All I’m saying is, that’s not going to keep campus/workplace violence from occurring because guns have never been shown to cure mental illness or evil or whatever else is at play here.

While we’re busy solving the symptom rather than the root cause, potential killers will be busy finding other ways to wreak havoc. Your comments about airplanes confuse me because I thought we were discussing campus violence, not all violence.

Why does everything have to be such a campaign with you? The only campaign that’s really important is to bring people to the knowledge of the living Christ.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern, carry your little toys if it will make you feel better, change the laws if they don’t allow you to, I don’t care. All I’m saying is, that’s not going to keep campus/workplace violence from occurring because guns have never been shown to cure mental illness or evil or whatever else is at play here.

Self-defense has proven to be the most effective means of defeating violent criminals.

While we’re busy solving the symptom rather than the root cause, potential killers will be busy finding other ways to wreak havoc. Your comments about airplanes confuse me because I thought we were discussing campus violence, not all violence.

Dat ol’ debbil, Root Causes, eh?

Let me know when you come up with a way to deal with Root Causes.

Why does everything have to be such a campaign with you? The only campaign that’s really important is to bring people to the knowledge of the living Christ.

Why does everything have to be such a campaign with you?

 

[seekerz]

The way to deal with all “root causes”, the real answer to them, is Christ. Peace be unto you.

 

[Robert_Bay]

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[seekerz]

Sorry moderator. It really seems like the right time to this exchange with my brother(?)/sister(?) in Christ.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Vern, carry your little toys if it will make you feel better, change the laws if they don’t allow you to, I don’t care.

Vern’s “little toys” will enable him to do the grave DUTY that the Catholic Church requires of all of us.

All I’m saying is, that’s not going to keep campus/workplace violence from occurring because guns have never been shown to cure mental illness or evil or whatever else is at play here.

It may not stop violence from happening on campus or in the workplace but it can reduce it. Studies have shown this to be true.

While we’re busy solving the symptom rather than the root cause, potential killers will be busy finding other ways to wreak havoc.

The problem of violence has been with society since Cain killed Abel. Do you really this our generation will be able to solve the “root cause” when no other previous generation has been able to do so?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Actually, I’m enjoying the irony of someone using demeaning and provoking phrases like

Vern, carry your little toys if it will make you feel better,

talking about curing the root causes of violence.

 

[seekerz]

Actually, I’m enjoying the irony of someone using demeaning and provoking phrases like talking about curing the root causes of violence.

And you have not demeaned anything I said? If I have offended you, please accept my apologies, I only meant to oppose the idea of guns as solutions, which they are not.