vaccines!

[agnes_therese]

I’m a little saddened. I thought maybe there would be more general interest and disgust. I’m surprised at how many people would defend the use of fetal (BS, let’s call it what it is) dead babies in their vaccines. And I am amazed by the verve with which they defend the position.

I think what most people are defending is using vaccines to protect their children’s lives and those of other people.

 

[kozlosap]

If you can find one physician (MD, not DO or homeopathic person) who doesn’t vaccinate their kids for fear of autism, it would be considered an anomoly. The doc in the UK who published the article in the Lancet has been fired and his medical license revoked for being a QUACK of emence proportions. I thank God everyday for the medical advances of the past century. As I stated before on these boards, my older brother died in 1951 from polio. If it had been 1956, he would have been vaccinated.

 

[AnnieHall]

So you people won’t except data from the cdc? And a graph that shows the start point for the new vaccines and the autism rate rate rising in unison in every state and country where they are introduced is simply what…?

Causation is explained nicely in the June 2013 newsletter.

It makes sense to me. Besides countering with a denial of facts, do you have any better argument?

Add me to the list of people that’s struggling to find any charts from your link (cogforlife.org/autism/), and I also see no June 2013 newsletter linked on the site.

You can, however add one more vote on my behalf to the correlation does not equal causation group.

As for the other point, as others have already pointed out, even vaccines that were developed using fetuses are allowed by the Catholic Church when no alternatives allowed, as there is no continuing need for fetal cells to continue producing vaccinations, and vaccinations do great things in terms of saving lives.

The NCBC, along with the Pontifical Academy for Life – a Vatican body established to provide information about issues in law and biomedicine – have studied the moral issues surrounding vaccines and have determined that it is morally licit, and even morally responsible, for Catholics to use even those vaccines developed from aborted fetus cells.

“There’s a whole formula for examining these dilemmas in terms of what we call cooperation in evil, and there are certain things that are always wrong, and there are certain things that are tolerable,” Dr. Hilliard told CNA.

The Pontifical Academy for Life determined that the good of public health outweighs the distanced cooperation in the evil of the abortions performed in the 1960s from which the cell lines were developed. No new abortions have been performed to maintain these vaccines, and no cells from the victims of the abortions are contained in the vaccines.

Currently the vaccine lines for rubella, chicken pox, and hepatitis A are the remaining vaccines that have been developed from aborted fetal cells and for which there is no alternative available.

“One is morally free to use the vaccine regardless of its historical association with abortion,” reads a document from the NCBC based on the findings from the Pontifical Academy for Life. “The reason is that the risk to public health, if one chooses not to vaccinate, outweighs the legitimate concern about the origins of the vaccine. This is especially important for parents, who have a moral obligation to protect the life and health of their children and those around them.”

catholicnewsagency.com/news/measles-are-making-a-comeback-so-what-does-the-church-teach-about-vaccines-38175/

 

[sherimarie]

The Vatican was pretty clear it wanted people to demand an ethical alternative. I wonder how many of you people who are so thankful to be benefiting from this baby’s death actually signed the petition to get Merck to start selling the original vacccinne? Did you even know threr is one?

 

[sherimarie]

You can also count me as someone who does not think that correlation and causation are one and the same thing.

Hasn’t anyone here ever read Father Brown? This is like a good detective novel, only it’s true. There are real l ives on the line, real people getting hurt by this. You can seee apattern though and God has given us the ability to figure this out.

You are thinking I am being the irresponcible one here, Allowing little childreen to beecome sick because we are too scrupulous to profit from the death of a “fetus” who died a LONG time ago. I would say you are the ones beingi ng remiss, autism can be a rather debilitating thing if we have the means to keep our children from getting this, we also have that responcibility.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I would say you are the ones beingi ng remiss, autism can be a rather debilitating thing if we have the means to keep our children from getting this, we also have that responcibility.

Except that there is zero evidence that anything you have suggested will keep our children from getting autism. I will go even further and suggest that those who continue propagating this insidious myth about vaccines and autism have blood on their hands for all the kids who will die from preventable diseases.

 

[pnewton]

(name removed by moderator) owes me 10 min. of my life back. DId you even read that? Confounded! That is a good example of why people DON"T read links. It’s usually a rabbit hole.!

You posted rabbit holes. I went down yours. No big deal. That’s what we do here.

We could all save a lot of time if we would not try and convert people to our opinions on immunizations and simply listened to established medical practice. I do not think any poster here is going to override one’s personal doctor anyway.

 

[ahs]

Except that there is zero evidence that anything you have suggested will keep our children from getting autism. I will go even further and suggest that those who continue propagating this insidious myth about vaccines and autism have blood on their hands for all the kids who will die from preventable diseases.

Don’t you think you are being overly dramatic? Let’s put this in perspective: the “big” disease issue that’s making headlines is “Measles”. Yet, Measles isn’t going to be killing any more children than the vaccine for Measles will kill. In fact, from what I’ve read, the vaccine has a higher death-toll than the disease itself.

Furthermore, no child from whom the vaccine is withheld can force another child NOT to be vaccinated. Any parent who does not vaccinate accepts the risk that goes with it, and that goes both ways.

Furthermore, a vaccine isn’t necessary in order for a child to build an immunity to Measles (or any other disease). Herd immunity is not dependent upon vaccines.

Furthermore, even vaccinated children can/do get the disease and can spread it. And children who do NOT get the vaccine are not necessarily guaranteed to get the disease or spread it. (My own children serve as a great example: the 1 child who was vaccinated got Measels, and the 3 who were not developed immunity without a vaccine, have never gotten it from the vaccinated child OR from their unvaccinated friends, and we know of no one who has contracted the disease from them.)

 

[agnes_therese]

You are thinking I am being the irresponcible one here, Allowing little childreen to beecome sick because we are too scrupulous to profit from the death of a “fetus” who died a LONG time ago. I would say you are the ones beingi ng remiss, autism can be a rather debilitating thing if we have the means to keep our children from getting this, we also have that responcibility.

1. There is ZERO evidence of a vaccine/autism link.
2. You are indeed irresponsible if you refuse to vaccinate your children. That could literally result in the death of another person. Is that OK with you?

 

[ahs]

1. There is ZERO evidence of a vaccine/autism link.
2. You are indeed irresponsible if you refuse to vaccinate your children. That could literally result in the death of another person. Is that OK with you?

Getting the vaccine could just as likely (more likely, actually), literally, lead to the death of one’s own child. Is that okay with you?

{I frame this question in the same context as Post #56 and the overly dramatic tone of the person I was responding to there. And just so everyone is clear, we are not talking about new-born infants being killed because, as the CDC clearly points out, those infants will receive immunities from their mothers:

"Why is MMR vaccine given after the first birthday?

Most infants born in the United States will receive passive protection against measles, mumps, and rubella in the form of antibodies from their mothers. These antibodies can destroy the vaccine virus if they are present when the vaccine is given and, thus, can cause the vaccine to be ineffective."}

cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/measles/faqs-dis-vac-risks.htm

I suppose now we’ll accuse non-breastfeeding mothers of infant abuse and potential murder for their own children because they are withholding valuable anti-bodies from their babies?? As I said, I think this is getting overly dramatic.

 

[pnewton]

The measles:

who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

Key facts
Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour.
Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.
In 2013, about 84% of the world’s children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 73% in 2000.
During 2000-2013, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 15.6 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.

The Vaccine:
cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#mmr

Severe Problems (Very Rare)
• Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
• Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including: ◦ Deafness
◦ Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
◦Permanent brain damage

These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine.

Lest we succumb to the lure of anecdotal evidence. I would encourage everyone to disregard stories and medical opinion here that are not backed by mainstream medical opinion. Anyone with a few dollars can start a website to promote their crusade. There are ideas and opinions that can cost lives. This is not the place for medical advice. Ask your own doctor what is best.

 

[ahs]

The measles:

who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

Key facts
Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour.
Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.
In 2013, about 84% of the world’s children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 73% in 2000.
During 2000-2013, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 15.6 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.

So, in 2013, AFTER 84% of the world’s children were vaccinated, the disease still led to the death of 145,700 children. I think that proves the OP’s point.

Again, let’s put that in perspective: 145,700 of 7billion world population is 0.000021 (or 0.0021%) of the population. I don’t know what % of the population is children, but I’ll say it’s a third. That makes it 0.0063% of the world’s children.

Did that site offer any information on how many deaths occurred (allegedly) from the vaccine itself?

 

[ahs]

Lest we succumb to the lure of anecdotal evidence. I would encourage everyone to disregard stories and medical opinion here that are not backed by mainstream medical opinion. Anyone with a few dollars can start a website to promote their crusade. There are ideas and opinions that can cost lives. This is not the place for medical advice. Ask your own doctor what is best.

Agreed.

 

[ahs]

It was hyperbole.

 

[pnewton]

A lot of factors mess with statistics. For example, some children are at a higher risk of side effects from the vaccine. Therefore, some of the most likely to react may decline the vaccine at the advice of their physician. It is for these that I have the moral imperative as a parent of a healthy child to do all I can, have my child vaccinated, for the sake of the child who cannot. Society is about working to toward the common good. The morality of Jesus takes this further as we put the needs of others ahead of our own needs.

I note that 97% effective means there is a 3% ineffective rate. It should be no surprise that he have a vocal faction against immunization then. People tend to form opinions based on experience more than fact, then adjust the facts to fit opinions. Confirmation bias.

 

[whatsmyname]

I do believe we need to discuss this more, not less! Peacefully as possible (I don’t care how jacked-up you get but apparently that’s frowned upon here!)

I have never seen a peaceful vaccination discussion anywhere so I do not think it is possible. I did know some vaccines were developed using fetal cells, but the Catholic Church does not believe you should avoid vaccinating your child because of it.

I’m concerned that some who are in favor of the current vaccination schedule seem unaware that there is cause for concern. It’s clear many have not even taken time to read the warnings and cautions on the package inserts. Certainly, after educating yourself, you may still choose to be very much in favor, deciding the benefits outweigh the risks, but I don’t think anyone can say there is no risk or even that all vaccines are particularly effective. I am hugely in favor of more rational education, less name calling/fear mongering/extremism, and much, much more scientific testing than there has been in the past.

Here are a few links that might be educational:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21993250

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9756729

bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f4249

progress.umb.edu.pl/sites/progress.umb.edu.pl/files/129-141.pdf

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12145534

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22580356/

link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10565-013-9239-0

jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/04/29/infdis.jit143.full

federalregister.gov/articles/2013/05/24/2013-12347/national-vaccine-injury-compensation-program-list-of-petitions-received?utm_content=next&utm_medium=PrevNext&utm_source=Article

tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02772248.2012.724574

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18445737

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10714532

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22015977

wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/prevguid/p0000348/p0000348.asp#head002000000000000

jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=189023

 

[Bookcat]

These are indeed serious and important questions for parents and society.

A few thoughts:

1. Lay bloggers or even news articles are not really the best sources for science or judging of those who do the work of science.
2. Be aware of what the Church has taught and has not taught on this matter.
3. It is good to weigh all the various sound sources on the question. Not “dismissing” something out of hand but looking at both sides. It may be that one scientist discovers what others have missed. Or it might be particular scientists conclude X and later other studies conclude Y and that X was incorrect because of Z.
4. Parents will need to make a prudential judgment from a well formed conscience.
5. I have seen various quoting of the CDC - and I thought I ought to note that as much as I look to the CDC for much good information (and my wife will tell you do)

• do not confuse the CDC with the CDF!

So lets keep that in mind in thinking through these matters.

Science (empirical)- is not a once and done matter. Pluto used to be a Planet according to mainstream science - now it is not. It is a dwarf planet. Point being that science by its nature can change and new evidence can come to light. Or judgments corrected.

 

[sherimarie]

Those are some good thoughts.

This link should go directly to the charts i was talking about.soundchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/UNITED-STATES.pdf

 

[AnnieHall]

So, in 2013, AFTER 84% of the world’s children were vaccinated, the disease still led to the death of 145,700 children. I think that proves the OP’s point.

Again, let’s put that in perspective: 145,700 of 7billion world population is 0.000021 (or 0.0021%) of the population. I don’t know what % of the population is children, but I’ll say it’s a third. That makes it 0.0063% of the world’s children.

Did that site offer any information on how many deaths occurred (allegedly) from the vaccine itself?

How does knowing that 84% of children worldwide have been immunized and that there are still deaths prove anything?

The threshold for herd immunity of measles is estimated to be between 83% and 94%, so even if the 84% worldwide was completely consistent in all communities in the world, it would be right at the low end of achieving herd immunity - which is what protects those who cannot medically receive vaccinations due to allergies, or other health issues, as well as protecting those who are vaccinated but do not gain immunity (of course, no vaccine is 100%, I believe the measles vaccine is about 95% effective after one dose, and somewhere upwards of 99% after two doses - but that’s still not going to be everyone who is vaccinated).

Of course, the 84% is an average, and there are certainly places where the immunization and immunity rates are much lower, so of course there will still be cases and deaths associated with the measles.

As has already been mentioned, the measles specifically is a highly highly contagious disease. From the CDC - “Six to 20 percent of the people who get the disease will get an ear infection, diarrhea, or even pneumonia. One out of 1000 people with measles will develop inflammation of the brain, and about one out of 1000 will die.”

If I had to pick between exposure to the measles and taking the chances of catching the disease and dealing with the side effects, or getting the vaccination and dealing with the side effects, I much prefer my chances with the vaccine.

Also, this might be worth reading for those interested, I admit I didn’t read through all of it before linking it here, but the CDC does have a page regarding autism and vaccinations. I think one thing that’s important to take away is that autism usually begins showing signs right around the age that’s recommended for immunizations - so it’d be an easy and convenient “cause” for some parents struggling to understand what was happening and why. But with no scientific proof that I’ve seen (other than a study that was later taken back and the license of the doctor revoked), and with everyone in agreement that correlation =/= causation, I’m stumped as to how that’s a factor in people’s decisions. cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Autism/Index.html

As has been said, discussing things with doctors and consulting studies done by experts makes more sense to me than using google to search through supposed cover ups and hidden risks. :twocents:

Edit: Sorry for all the repeated information in here, I somehow managed to miss that there was a page 5 of replies to this thread! :doh2: And of course my lunch break is ending now, so I don’t have time to go back through and edit it to make it more relevant.

 

[sallybutler]

Why don’t parents who refuse to vaccinate their children for reasons other than the child has an immun-deficient disease volunteer to expose their children to measles and keep them quaranteed until the child shows that they have developed the antibodies?

We could provide special locations where the parents could take their children. They could then be exposed to 3-day & 7-day measles, mumbs, chicken pox, polio, whooping cough, diphtheria, etc. Of course, we would only expose them to one disease at a time so we don’t overwhelm their systems. Hopefully, they won’t suffer any side affects (blindness, heart disease, scars, sterility, death, brain damage, paralysis, etc), but if they do, at least it will be ‘natural’.

For those people who feel that the vaccines are worse than the disease, I think this is a resonable alternative.

And yes, I am kind of serious.