Vatican criticizes fence?

[Julianna]

I did not see a thread on the Vatican’s comments about the US fence being cruel. I am very disappointed that the Vatican has gone the easy, unthinking, and automatic route of jumping on the “bash US “ bandwagon. All countries are literally defined by their borders. We have millions of Hispanics and, quite possibly, mid east terrorist swarming over our borders every day. Just what is it the Vatican expects us to do?

Instead of criticism over this country doing its best to defend its own borders the Vatican has to tell us we are the ones who are wrong. When did this world get so backward and so ridiculous that a country like the US is told it can not protect itself? Such silly criticisms seem to always be focused on this great country that has helped millions of people over the years. Why would the Vatican, of all places, join in making the US the brunt of such a comment?

I enjoyed Bay Buchannans response on Fox when she said soemthing to the effect…"if the Vatican doesn’t want us to put up a fence, then they can sell some of their art to help out…

Exactly…I agree. It’s one thing to tell people what to do…it’s another to pass religious judgement against those who don’t agree. Put your money where your mouth is…or stay out of it.

 

[Kendy]

I put my catholicism way before my nationalism, and I would never slander my church in favor of my country’s policies. I am disappointed that not all the catholics on this board feel the same way. God has given the church the responsibility to be the light of the world and using that authority, she must speak on all matters of faith, morals, and justice.

Kendy

 

[Julianna]

America is not “all” catholic. There in lies the difference. Religions can speak out on issues affecting their cause and request change, but in the end, it is what is best for “all” concerned.

If you want a country run by religion, the Middle East has many places for you.

I agree with Bay Bucannan. As I see it, the Vatican itself is surrounded by walls and fences to keep people out…how is that different?

You say, “well, it’s to keep criminal out”…yeah, well that is exactly what the US is doing by putting a fence on the border. Crossing the border is a crime. Crossing the border with drugs is a crime. Crossing the border with intent to destroy the US via terrorism is a crime. The US is justified.

When the early patriots didn’t like what England was doing to them, they rose up and fought them. This is what the people at our southern borders need to do. We dumped tea in the harbor and told England to get lost.

The US has enough financial problems within it’s own borders that it needs to deal with. The fence is the best solution for now.

I would go further and start closing bases in Europe and relocating them to our southern and norther borders. English would be the official language…you don’t learn it, too bad.

 

[Kendy]

America is not “all” catholic. There in lies the difference. Religions can speak out on issues affecting their cause and request change, but in the end, it is what is best for “all” concerned.

If you want a country run by religion, the Middle East has many places for you.

I agree with Bay Bucannan. As I see it, the Vatican itself is surrounded by walls and fences to keep people out…how is that different?

You say, “well, it’s to keep criminal out”…yeah, well that is exactly what the US is doing by putting a fence on the border. Crossing the border is a crime. Crossing the border with drugs is a crime. Crossing the border with intent to destroy the US via terrorism is a crime. The US is justified.

When the early patriots didn’t like what England was doing to them, they rose up and fought them. This is what the people at our southern borders need to do. We dumped tea in the harbor and told England to get lost.

The US has enough financial problems within it’s own borders that it needs to deal with. The fence is the best solution for now.

I would go further and start closing bases in Europe and relocating them to our southern and norther borders. English would be the official language…you don’t learn it, too bad.

There’s a difference between a society run by clerics and a society informed by faith. When officials of the catholic church implore government officials to apply catholic social teaching, they are not trying to create a theocracy; instead, they are calling public officials to form the conscience in light of the truth. Our policies are going to be based on something, either secularism, exvophobia, humanism, etc can form our conscience or our policies can derive from consciences formed by the teachings of the church, which is inspired by God.

Kendy

P.S. BTW, the same arguments are made against pro-lifers. This is not a catholic country and therefore, we should not lidten to the catholic church’s teachings on abortion.

 

[Julianna]

instead, they are calling public officials to form the conscience in light of the truth.

who’s truth? what truth? How many people are Americans? What is their faith based value system? Do they have one? Is one better than the other? Should one take precedence over the other? No, not in America. We have the freedom of religion, and those who do not share my same faith system, should not be subjected to it by force as a whole. I respect their freedom “from” religion.

Don’t cloud the issue with abortion. This is illegal immigration, a crime. I, personally am against abortion, it is my inner conscience that supports this decision. I think for myself, as an American, that is the way to go. I don’t ride bandwagons. My church is my spiritual guide, my historical framework. It is not my conscience, my consceince is divinely inspiried from within by the Holy Spirit.

If the Vatican wants to help…send money, send missionaries, set up refuges/sanctuaries for illegal immigrants in Mexico, show them “how to” come to America legally. Be part of the solution.

 

[Kendy]

instead, they are calling public officials to form the conscience in light of the truth.

who’s truth? what truth? How many people are Americans? What is their faith based value system? Do they have one? Is one better than the other? Should one take precedence over the other? No, not in America. We have the freedom of religion, and those who do not share my same faith system, should not be subjected to it by force as a whole. I respect their freedom “from” religion.

First of all, I hope as a catholic you believe that the church teaches truth. Second, freedom from religion is not the problem. I am not suggesting that we force anyone to practice any religion. I am only saying that everyone uses their religion or their lack thereof to form their opinions and then they use those opinions to demand public policy. There is no such thing as a neutral opinion. It is either informed by faith or by a secularist dogma. Given that fact, we all have a right to present out arguments in the public square even if they result from our faith.

Don’t cloud the issue with abortion. This is illegal immigration, a crime. I, personally am against abortion, it is my inner conscience that supports this decision. I think for myself, as an American, that is the way to go. I don’t ride bandwagons. My church is my spiritual guide, my historical framework. It is not my conscience, my consceince is divinely inspiried from within by the Holy Spirit.

If the Vatican wants to help…send money, send missionaries, set up refuges/sanctuaries for illegal immigrants in Mexico, show them “how to” come to America legally. Be part of the solution.

I am not clouding the issue at all. You stated that the church has no right to impose it’s opinion on this matter. I pointed out another instance where similar arguments are used. So, you are ok with the church interfering in the case abortion because you agree, but not on immigration because you disagree?

The church has offered many solution, includes support for the McCain bill. The USCCB has advocated many immigration reforms, which would help curb the problem of illegal immigration. Including increase the immigrant quota to reflect the number of workers demanded by American employers. If we just did that, fewer people could come here to work illegally because they could work legally.

Secondly, In the same way that the church is not obligated to provide assistance to pregnant women when she tells them not to have abortion, she is not obligated here either. However, you should know that the church does plenty to help Mexican immigrants who come into this country. Every dioceses website I have been to has a link to the “justice for immigrants” office, which provides assistance to as well as advocacy for immigrants. In dioceses where there are many Mexican immigrants, much is done to help their spiritual and material needs. Add to that the catholic hospitals, and charities that regular provide assistance to anyone, including immigrants, we see that the church has already put its money where its mouth is.

Your refugee camp idea is just plain silly. It is completely unnecessary since we don’t have squatter problem. Immigrants usually hook up with other immigrants and so have no need to be placed in refugee camps. This only reflects the gross exaggeration that accompanies the anti-immigrant position. When we get Americans to believe that we need to start building refugee camps in the middle of Arizona, they are led to falsely believe that this is great crisis that demands drastic as opposed to reasonable solutions. But I assure, if they were ever a need for refugee camps, the church would be there providing assistance.

The Church recognizes however is that much of this about Xenophobia. When I speak to older Polish immigrants, they often talk about feeling unwelcomed when they come to America. And there’s certainly historical evidence of Chinese, Italian, and Irish Americans were treated horribly when they first came to America. Sadly, the children of these immigrants are doing the same thing. The church knows what’s going on, and she’s not buying it.

Kendy

 

[Julianna]

I was not referring to a refugee camp. I was referring to a sanctuary sponsored “BY” the church on the Mexican side of the border, not in the US.

I do not ask the church to enforce my personal belief against abortion. I came to this not because the church says so, but my own personal conscience.

I am all for immigration if it is done “legally”. I am against illegal immigration as it strangles our already costly healthcare system as well as our other govermental social programs. It is the taxpayers of the middle class who are carrying the load. My brother and sister in law have no insurance and therefore will not have any children because of the cost of the healthcare involved. However, an illegal immigrant can drop a kid in an American hospital and not pay a dime. Meanwhile if my brother and sis in law did that, their credit would be ruined and it would effect every aspect of their life from then on. In fact my DH and I did not start having children until we were financially ready. So perhaps you can see the problem here. I am an American citizen and I have to pay through the nose for everything, but someone, anyone can come here illegally and live off of me and the rest of the taxpaying public. Then the church comes out and tells everyone that we should accept illegal immigrants and not build a fence OR what, “face excommunication”…or what if we come out publically against it by stating we want a fence. I say, go ahead, make my day…I will not change my stance.

The church is clueless as to what is facing this country through illegal immigration and offers only soundbites to scare Catholics. As for McCain, like all politicians is into pacification of the public. Only this time a clear majority of Americans are not buying it, no matter what their belief system is. I think the church has enough problems within, to have concern about what ails the US.

I am all for cleaning up my own backyard before I point a finger at my neighbors.

 

[Kendy]

I do not ask the church to enforce my personal belief against abortion. I came to this not because the church says so, but my own personal conscience.

Thankful, the church will try to enforce you “personal beliefs” anyway.

I am all for immigration if it is done “legally”. I am against illegal immigration as it strangles our already costly healthcare system as well as our other govermental social programs. It is the taxpayers of the middle class who are carrying the load. My brother and sister in law have no insurance and therefore will not have any children because of the cost of the healthcare involved. However, an illegal immigrant can drop a kid in an American hospital and not pay a dime. Meanwhile if my brother and sis in law did that, their credit would be ruined and it would effect every aspect of their life from then on. In fact my DH and I did not start having children until we were financially ready. So perhaps you can see the problem here. I am an American citizen and I have to pay through the nose for everything, but someone, anyone can come here illegally and live off of me and the rest of the taxpaying public. Then the church comes out and tells everyone that we should accept illegal immigrants and not build a fence OR what, “face excommunication”…or what if we come out publically against it by stating we want a fence. I say, go ahead, make my day…I will not change my stance.

BTW, I don’t have health insurance either. Anyway, does it occur to you as you are ranting about immigrants get free health care, “how do they do it?” What law or policy allows them to do this? If you thought about that, you would realize that the law would apply no diiferent for your brother than an immigrant. I have gone to county hospitals for free and I am not an illegal immigrant. Your brother is welcome to have a child if he wants. If he is truly financially strapped, most states will have services to help him. Some of the those services are inaccessible to illegal aliens.

This illustrates what I am talking about when I refer to the exxageration of the anti-immigrant lobby. You would think illegal immigrants automatically got placed into five star hotels once they crossed the border. But the truth is is most federal aid is unavailable to illegal immigrants, including the social security that many of them pay into.

The church is clueless as to what is facing this country through illegal immigration and offers only soundbites to scare Catholics. As for McCain, like all politicians is into pacification of the public. Only this time a clear majority of Americans are not buying it, no matter what their belief system is. I think the church has enough problems within, to have concern about what ails the US.

I am all for cleaning up my own backyard before I point a finger at my neighbors.

I hope you consider the church’s backyard to be your own. Perhaps, you can grab rake and help us clean.

 

[St_John]

My Bishop made a statement on immigration in this months diocsien newspaper. He said, yes nations have a right to protect their borders. But he said that the Church says that rich countries like ours have a moral responsibility to the poor of this world, including taking them in, and that our current laws are unjust. He also said that our laws don’t reflect economic realities in this country of needing more workers.

The Church is very pro-immigrant and pro-poor. The Church is supportive of Mexican immigration and wants to help them. Yes, it’s annoying to us natives to see these hoards of people coming and changing the demography of many places. But, if we want to listen to our spiritual leaders, then they are saying that we should help them. The Church’s attitude is that to much is given, much is asked. Yes, the Vatican is against this fence. It’s a very ridiculous waste of money too, so I agree with them.

 

[Julianna]

*** If you thought about that, you would realize that the law would apply no diiferent for your brother than an immigrant. I have gone to county hospitals for free and I am not an illegal immigrant. Your brother is welcome to have a child if he wants. If he is truly financially strapped, most states will have services to help him. Some of the those services are inaccessible to illegal aliens.

---

You see, that is where my family differs from you. My brother has no insurance, but he would not ask the taxpayers to pay for a child he cannot financially have at this time. My DH and I had insurance, and when it kicked in, we had children, because we could afford it. My brother is not destitute, he and his wife work full time and own their own home (mortgage). That right there would disqualify them from ANY assistance, so they would have to pay for the whole hospital care which would take years and years. Where if they had insurance, they would pay co pays and in a few months, out of debt to the hospital. If you want to have babies in the county hospital and feel entitled to have others pay for it, then have at it. To me, that is not right. I had mine in Catholic hospital and I had my hysterectomy in a Catholic hospital as well, and they ain’t cheap, and no one from the diocese came to ask if I needed financial help.

If you can’t afford something, don’t buy it. If you are illegal, don’t ask the legal citizens of this country to pay your way. Come here legally, learn the American language and customs and you will learn to pay your own way.

I support a fence, I also support the military on the border, as does a very Irish Catholic Bill O’Reilly.

 

[Julianna]

My Bishop made a statement on immigration in this months diocsien newspaper. He said, yes nations have a right to protect their borders. But he said that the Church says that rich countries like ours have a moral responsibility to the poor of this world, including taking them in, and that our current laws are unjust. He also said that our laws don’t reflect economic realities in this country of needing more workers.

The Church is very pro-immigrant and pro-poor. The Church is supportive of Mexican immigration and wants to help them. Yes, it’s annoying to us natives to see these hoards of people coming and changing the demography of many places. But, if we want to listen to our spiritual leaders, then they are saying that we should help them. The Church’s attitude is that to much is given, much is asked. Yes, the Vatican is against this fence. It’s a very ridiculous waste of money too, so I agree with them.

Then the Vatican and the mansions that the diocesean bishops live in should open up and take in the illegal immigrants. I have personally visited a bishops home, and with the many antiques and “gifts” I saw in the 3 story historical home, those could be sold to help these folks out, yeah that’s the ticket. Bay Buchannan, got it right.

 

[Kendy]

My Bishop made a statement on immigration in this months diocsien newspaper. He said, yes nations have a right to protect their borders. But he said that the Church says that rich countries like ours have a moral responsibility to the poor of this world, including taking them in, and that our current laws are unjust. He also said that our laws don’t reflect economic realities in this country of needing more workers.

The Church is very pro-immigrant and pro-poor. The Church is supportive of Mexican immigration and wants to help them. Yes, it’s annoying to us natives to see these hoards of people coming and changing the demography of many places. But, if we want to listen to our spiritual leaders, then they are saying that we should help them. The Church’s attitude is that to much is given, much is asked. Yes, the Vatican is against this fence. It’s a very ridiculous waste of money too, so I agree with them.

Great summary. Thanks.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

*** If you thought about that, you would realize that the law would apply no diiferent for your brother than an immigrant. I have gone to county hospitals for free and I am not an illegal immigrant. Your brother is welcome to have a child if he wants. If he is truly financially strapped, most states will have services to help him. Some of the those services are inaccessible to illegal aliens.

---

You see, that is where my family differs from you. My brother has no insurance, but he would not ask the taxpayers to pay for a child he cannot financially have at this time… To me, that is not right. I had mine in Catholic hospital and I had my hysterectomy in a Catholic hospital as well, and they ain’t cheap, and no one from the diocese came to ask if I needed financial help.

You and your brother is not morally superior because he thinks everyone should fend for themselves. I have a full-time job. I am a tax payer, and I pay into the county health system, and if I ever make enough money to get health insurance, I will continue to pay the county health system so that others can have health insurance. I believe that as a society we need to support each other. In fact, I honestly wish that the church could figure out a way to provide health care and a catholic education to all catholics. As humans beings, and especially as brothers and sisters, that’s is what we are called to do.

If you can’t afford something, don’t buy it. If you are illegal, don’t ask the legal citizens of this country to pay your way. Come here legally, learn the American language and customs and you will learn to pay your own way.

I support a fence, I also support the military on the border, as does a very Irish Catholic Bill O’Reilly.

This makes me so mad. Us law makes it almost impossible to come here legally. The sad part is its a bureacratic problem, which forces people to wait 10-15 years to immigrate. It could easily be fixed with laws that cut throughthe bureaucracy. As for learning English. every first generation immigrant has struggled with the language.

And Bill O’Reilley never struck me as particularly catholic.

You know, liberals get upset when someone tells them how to order the sex lives. And conservative get upset when you tell them how to order the financial lives. Thankfully, the church will continue to speak the truth about chastity as well as chraity because it is God’s church.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

I would urge the angry catholics on this thread to consider the fact that your membership in the United States is a temporary matter. But your membership in the body of Christ, is eternal, if you so desire.

Kendy

 

[rpp]

Personally, I think the fence on the boarder is a good idea, but I do not hold to that opinion strongly.

Why do I think it is a good idea?

• It is safer for those tempted to immigrate illegally. By keeping some out, you potentially save lives. Many illegals die of exposure trying to cross the desert. This is not unimportant.
• Keeping illegals out prevents their exploitation. Employers who exploit illegals know they will not be turned in because the illegals fear deportation. This is a big deal!
• Helps inhibit the human trafficers. Anything to stops these sick so-and-so’s is a good thing.
• Border security is important. How many people can tell the difference, just by looking, at a young middle-eastern man trying to look hispanic (not very difficult for many) and a real hispanic? Shouldn’t law enforcment know when certain people enter this country?
  Having said this, I do hnot think a fence is very effective. It should be just one of many tools available to Border Security. Also, I would like to see immigration laws modified in a way that discourages illegal immigration. Do I have specific suggestions? Not really. But I have to agree with Church teachings, America is a rich country, we must not be selfish.

 

[Zerith]

With regards to terrorists entering the USA through Mexico.

That’s a very naïve view. The typical Mid-Eastern terrorist has been disproved when citizens of the UK suicide bombed London.

They were British. Their parents moved to Britain long before they were born.

Your potential terrorists could very well be American citizens, born and raised.

Until you accept this fact - that there’s a possibility that they’re American, you will always be in danger of an attack.

I honestly wish that the church could figure out a way to provide health care and a catholic education to all catholics.

I love this noble idea of yours, as a student, I’m not working, I pay no taxes, but of course don’t take any benefit, but when I have, and when I will pay taxes, I pay them willingly, knowing they’re going towards the benefit others will recieve, in a bid that it improves their lives.

Each Saturday/Sunday, I’m happy to give 10€ into the collection basket, it goes towards my Church & community, its projects and its people, aswell as the entire Catholic Church in Ireland and the world.

 

[rpp]

I would urge the angry catholics on this thread to consider the fact that your membership in the United States is a temporary matter. But your membership in the body of Christ, is eternal, if you so desire.

Kendy

Well said.

 

[Jeffrey]

How they do it is… they just don’t pay.

Anyway, does it occur to you as you are ranting about immigrants get free health care, “how do they do it?” What law or policy allows them to do this?

 

[Cossack1]

“The ones from 9/11 came via flights and walked right through airport security even though the Feds knew who they were. If someone is bent on entry you won’t stop them.”

So should we just stop all attempts at law enforcement like busting drug smugglers? Just because it is hard to stop an illegal act does not mean it is impossible, and it does not mean we should not make it very difficult to circumvent our laws.

“Want to get rid of the illegal workers in the US? Send the owners or employers of any company that hires them down for twenty five years”

Even people who commit murder don’t get 25 years. I would have no problem with fining these employers AFTER we do the common sense thing of putting up a fence.

“So Iran has a right to nuclear weapons to deter a US invasion?”

How can you possibly compare Iran arming itself with nuclear weapons in violation of treaty agreements to the US simply putting up a fence on its own border?

 

[Cossack1]

"I put my catholicism way before my nationalism, and I would never slander my church in favor of my country’s policies. I am disappointed that not all the catholics on this board feel the same way. God has given the church the responsibility to be the light of the world and using that authority, she must speak on all matters of faith, morals, and justice. "

In a recent Wall Street Journal article the Pope himself said that the main difference between Catholicism and the Islam is that we Christians believe that even God is subject to logic and reason. The Muslims believe that god (Allah) is above reason. Therefore, things like terrorism can be excused by Muslims.

If God is subject to the rules of reason I am very sure that the humble Cardinal who made these irresponsible and uninformed statements is also on the hook.