Vatican criticizes fence?

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I’d say the Vatican is perfectly free to criticize anything they choose. That includes a US/Mexico border wall. And we are perfectly free to refute that criticism.

The cardinal compares the wall to the Berlin Wall? The US is building the wall. It is not designed to keep Americans from leaving the country as the Berlin Wall was. This shows a gross lack of historical perspective on the part of the Cardinal.

I also note the Vatican is surrounded by a wall. I fully understand the reasons for this. Does the Cardinal think it is OK for the Vatican to wall its borders, but improper for the US to follow suit? The US has a far larger percentage of its borders open than the Vatican has.

I suspect the Cardinal was speaking for himself. The Church has too keen an appreciation of history to make these blunders.
 
All this discussion is much ado about nothing.
Cardinal Martini is not speaking for the Church. He is voicing his own opinion. He can’t make any infallible statements and what he says, if we are to give it faith, must agree with Church teaching. The Church can’t have an official position on whether a wall on the US- Mexico border is good or bad.

By their fruits you shall know them. One time Martini also hinted around that condoms might be allowed for married couples with HIV.

If Pope Benedict came out with some opinion about it, I would give it much more credence. It would still be his opinion. The bishops in the US go around giving their opinion about everything even though most of the time they have no expertise in the particular matter, such as immigration policy and the death penalty. They want people to think they are giving the Church’s position on these matters when in fact it is their own opinion with which we can disagree.
Then when a matter of morality comes up, in the political and cultural life, first they tend to go along with the liberal view and then finally after much prodding by the laity and the Vatican, they come out very timidly with statements which they refuse to enforce or teach on the parish level.

Sorry, but the fact is that we do have to know our faith and test everything that is told us even by Cardinals and bishops against the teaching of the Church.
Authoritative or definitive statements are not to be confused with the personal opinions of these priests, even if the priests pretend otherwise.
 
How they do it is… they just don’t pay.
All I was saying is that immigrants can the same emergency room healthcare that everbody can get because very few people are so heartless to turn away some in a medical emergency.

Kendy
 
Wow! This thread has got me fuming. I live LITERALLY half a mile from the Texas/Mexico border, and with all due respect, most of the posts I have read thus far are completely ignorant to the real problems that exist down here. How does illegal immigration affect me personally? Let’s see, drug dealers using my property as drop off zones for people on this side of the border to pick up payloads. Just three weeks ago we found 300 lbs. of marijuana not 30 yards from my back yard. How about “coyotes” (human smugglers) poisening your dogs so they won’t alert people to the pressence of tresspassers. High speed chases between border patrol, sherriffs, coyotes, and drug runners barraling down the road in front of your house. Just last week the sheriffs department put out a warning to US citizens on our border that mexican drug gangs are going to start kidnapping american citizens who “squeal” or otherwise disrupt their business, take them to mexico and execute them. The sheriff in the county near me has set up check points on the american side of the bridge to ensure that all passengers in vehicles traveling into mexico are going of their own free will. What else, oh people coming to your house at all hours of the day and night asking for rides when their smuggler didn’t come to get them. Trash littering your property in the form of discarded clothes, shoes, plastic bags, etc. Oh, and have I mentioned the discrimination that I have personally experienced my whole life? I have been called everything in the book from the time I was a child. Since I grew up here I speak fluent spanish and it’s a good thing because if you don’t speak spanish you will not find a job anywhere in this area. Your probably asking yourself “why doesn’t she just move?” I would love to, but my family farms and you can’t take the land with you. So we have no choice but to deal with it. I homeschool my kids because the area schools are so bad they would not be safe. I mean it, that is not an exageration. We might as well live in another part of the world. Nothing around here resembles anything most of you take for granted as citizens of the US interior. The worst part of it is that no one seems to care about what is going on down here. No one cares about what we live with. It’s not that I want the borders to be shut down and never alow people to immigrate. But shutting down the border to illegals sneaking across is paramount to our safety and theirs. Do any of you know what happens to many of the people who are smuggled in here? Young women are often raped by the coyotes, they hang their panties on mesquite bushes as trophies of their crime. Some are put in brothels to work off the cost of getting here. Children are bought and sold to child porn rings in the US and smuggled here to be forever lost to the underworld of the child sex trade. I haven’t even mentioned the terrorist issue. Even the FBI now says that mexican drug cartels are providing identification, spanish names, transport across the border and even teaching terrorists to speak spanish so if they are caught illegaly in the US and show that they are mexican nationals(through forged documents) they are merely released and given a future court date to which they will never show up to. Yes, the church says that wealthy nations have an obligation to help the plight of the poor immigrant, but the church also says that nations should have laws that protect the common good of that nation. The US cannot be the liferaft to all of the developing nations of the world. What the US should do is demand that the corrupt politicians and leaders of these developing countries give their people the freedom to better their lives in there own countries. Also, immigration should be fair to all people from all countries and cultures. If 80% of people coming in to this country are from one cultural background and language, that ultimately leads to the replacement of the culture and language of the new country with that of the country of origin. In this senario the “melting pot” isn’t allowed to work. If, however, there is an equal amount of immigrants from all countries (ie a quota system) then no one incoming language or culture begins to dominate. Everyone must find common ground with which to deal with one another. They must learn a common language, form common ethics and moral standards. That is how things have worked since this nation’s beginning. That is not what is happening now. I respect the opinion of anything that comes from the Vatican, but, I follow the teaching of the church and the church says that nations have the right to sovereinty and to protection of that sovereignty for the common good of the nation.
 
Hello all,

So why has the Vatican chosen to bash America for building a fence rather than bash the Mexican government for being so corrupt, taking all the money from the poor, and making Mexicans starve to death and want to leave Mexico in the first place?

The Muslim Sudaneis government genocided 500,000 people. The Vatican came out and bashed America for not doing enough to aid the Sudanies refugees in Dafur. Why did the Vatican not bash the evil Muslim Sudanies government for genociding 500,000 people and causeing the Dafur refugee camp in the first place?

Pope Benedict made a statment about the evil of Mohamad adding violence to the Koran. The Muslims killed a couple of Catholics in retaliation and threatened a jihad against the Catholic Church. The Vatican came out and clarified that Pope Benedict’s speach against Muslim Koran related violence was really targetted at condemning America.

Pope John Paul II said it was murder (Uthenasia) to not supply feed tubes to the terminally ill no mater what the cost. Third world countrys, because the cost of nursing home care is so high (thousands of dollars per month), do not use feed tubes, and let people pass away naturallhy. Some say that Pope John Paul II was just trageting America, not third world nations (a majority of the world and a magority of Catholics) when he made the statement. Why is a Church ecumenical automatically seen as targetting only America and not the whole of 1.2 billion Catholics?

Pope John Paul II condemed America for not forgiving third world debt to help the poor rather than even bother with evenn asking the Catholic Church 1.2 billion Catholics to tithe and donate with all their strength to pay off third world debt. Why is that?

We do not hear about fences and other things that other counties in the world (a great majority of the world) are doing, from the Vatican. The Vatican focuses Her attacks on America. Why?

Popes and Vatican leaders seem to spend more time talking about what America should do than they do telling Catholics what they should do. Why is that?

Brainstorming here. I think that Vatican leaders already have a feel of great power in being seen by the world as the leader of 1.2 billion Catholics. Would Catholic leaders attain more power from condemning Mexican leaders for persecuting their people? Would Vatican leaders atain more power for condemning third world nations for not using feed tubes? Would the Vatican leaders feel that a jihad against the Church and the loss of Catholic lives was worth the rush of adrenalin (power) they got from condemning Muslim Koran related violence?

When you have Power over 1.2 billion Catholics, to attain even greater power, America is just to jucy of a target to pass up. America is not going to kill Catholics if you condemn Her actions. Vatican leaders will loose Catholics if they condemn Catholics for not tithing or spending more in donations to keep the poor from dying. Vatican leaders will not loose Catholics if they condemn Ameirca for not spending more money to save the poor around the world from dying.

America, being the only super power on earth, becomes a favored target for those seeking to push their world recognized wieght around (power). America is not going to kill anyone in the world who speaks disfavorably of us.

Personaly, I think we American should be proud that we are so just that we simply, automatically, just become to juscy of a target for Church leaders to pass up. Kind of like God authorized Church leaders crucifying Jesus to protect their exalted image as God’s chosen righteous leaders in the world.

Out of all the evil that 1.2 billion Catholics are doing, the Pope chose to condemn America for building a fence. We Americans should be proud of this. The Pope has his hands tied. If he speaks out against evil Muslim Koran related violence, Catholics will die. If the Pope speaks out against Catholics not tithing or donating enough to keep the poor from dying, Catholics will leave the Church. If the Pope speaks out against America for building a fence, no retaliation happens.

I am proud to be an American!
 
This right here is 100% why I want the borders shut down until they can fix the problem. The biggest prob is the Mexican Goverment IMO.
Wow! This thread has got me fuming. I live LITERALLY half a mile from the Texas/Mexico border, and with all due respect, most of the posts I have read thus far are completely ignorant to the real problems that exist down here. How does illegal immigration affect me personally? Let’s see, drug dealers using my property as drop off zones for people on this side of the border to pick up payloads. Just three weeks ago we found 300 lbs. of marijuana not 30 yards from my back yard. How about “coyotes” (human smugglers) poisening your dogs so they won’t alert people to the pressence of tresspassers. High speed chases between border patrol, sherriffs, coyotes, and drug runners barraling down the road in front of your house. Just last week the sheriffs department put out a warning to US citizens on our border that mexican drug gangs are going to start kidnapping american citizens who “squeal” or otherwise disrupt their business, take them to mexico and execute them. The sheriff in the county near me has set up check points on the american side of the bridge to ensure that all passengers in vehicles traveling into mexico are going of their own free will. What else, oh people coming to your house at all hours of the day and night asking for rides when their smuggler didn’t come to get them. Trash littering your property in the form of discarded clothes, shoes, plastic bags, etc. Oh, and have I mentioned the discrimination that I have personally experienced my whole life? I have been called everything in the book from the time I was a child. Since I grew up here I speak fluent spanish and it’s a good thing because if you don’t speak spanish you will not find a job anywhere in this area. Your probably asking yourself “why doesn’t she just move?” I would love to, but my family farms and you can’t take the land with you. So we have no choice but to deal with it. I homeschool my kids because the area schools are so bad they would not be safe. I mean it, that is not an exageration. We might as well live in another part of the world. Nothing around here resembles anything most of you take for granted as citizens of the US interior. The worst part of it is that no one seems to care about what is going on down here. No one cares about what we live with. It’s not that I want the borders to be shut down and never alow people to immigrate. But shutting down the border to illegals sneaking across is paramount to our safety and theirs. Do any of you know what happens to many of the people who are smuggled in here? Young women are often raped by the coyotes, they hang their panties on mesquite bushes as trophies of their crime. Some are put in brothels to work off the cost of getting here. Children are bought and sold to child porn rings in the US and smuggled here to be forever lost to the underworld of the child sex trade. I haven’t even mentioned the terrorist issue. Even the FBI now says that mexican drug cartels are providing identification, spanish names, transport across the border and even teaching terrorists to speak spanish so if they are caught illegaly in the US and show that they are mexican nationals(through forged documents) they are merely released and given a future court date to which they will never show up to. Yes, the church says that wealthy nations have an obligation to help the plight of the poor immigrant, but the church also says that nations should have laws that protect the common good of that nation. The US cannot be the liferaft to all of the developing nations of the world. What the US should do is demand that the corrupt politicians and leaders of these developing countries give their people the freedom to better their lives in there own countries. Also, immigration should be fair to all people from all countries and cultures. If 80% of people coming in to this country are from one cultural background and language, that ultimately leads to the replacement of the culture and language of the new country with that of the country of origin. In this senario the “melting pot” isn’t allowed to work. If, however, there is an equal amount of immigrants from all countries (ie a quota system) then no one incoming language or culture begins to dominate. Everyone must find common ground with which to deal with one another. They must learn a common language, form common ethics and moral standards. That is how things have worked since this nation’s beginning. That is not what is happening now. I respect the opinion of anything that comes from the Vatican, but, I follow the teaching of the church and the church says that nations have the right to sovereinty and to protection of that sovereignty for the common good of the nation.
 
I put my catholicism way before my nationalism, and I would never slander my church in favor of my country’s policies. I am disappointed that not all the catholics on this board feel the same way. God has given the church the responsibility to be the light of the world and using that authority, she must speak on all matters of faith, morals, and justice.

Kendy
I suggest you have missed the point.

From what I have seen in this thread there has been little or no criticism of the Church. There has been much criticism of some cardinals and bishops – that is, individuals.

Criticism of those cardinals and bishops is appropriate. They are wrong. They cannot be trusted. They do not speak for the Church – but rather only their own disgusting perspective.

Rejecting the opinions of these renegades is not a criticism of the Church.
 
I did not see a thread on the Vatican’s comments about the US fence being cruel. I am very disappointed that the Vatican has gone the easy, unthinking, and automatic route of jumping on the “bash US “ bandwagon. All countries are literally defined by their borders. We have millions of Hispanics and, quite possibly, mid east terrorist swarming over our borders every day. Just what is it the Vatican expects us to do?

Instead of criticism over this country doing its best to defend its own borders the Vatican has to tell us we are the ones who are wrong. When did this world get so backward and so ridiculous that a country like the US is told it can not protect itself? Such silly criticisms seem to always be focused on this great country that has helped millions of people over the years. Why would the Vatican, of all places, join in making the US the brunt of such a comment?
Well done in bringing up this point. I certainly am disgusted at such statements by any cardinal or bishop or priest. They do not represent the Catholic Church I believe in.

Too many cardinals and bishops are way off track and they deserve to be criticized.

Again and again Catholic cardinals and bishops have clearly demonstrated they cannot be trusted in matters of social justice or protection of the innocent.

In the mid 1990’s the bishops in California fought to retain racial discrimination. They argued that the cruelty of granting or rejecting people based on skin color, race, ethnic background, etc. should continue indefinitely. Fortunately the citizens of California soundly rejected these disgusting priests and sided with elimination of much of the racial discrimination practices.

In the early 2000’s we were enlightened on how so many cardinals and bishops ignored the harm and suffering of children abused by priests. Rather the cardinals and bishops repeatedly protected those priests and conspired to hide them from the police and legal system. These cardinals and bishops then went on to bribe the victims and their families to keep the conspiracy secret. Even further these cardinals and bishops then lied about what they had done.

Now we see more behavior just as disgusting as has been made public over the past decade or so.

These cardinals and bishops do not deserve our respect or attention. Their views should be rejected.

Every day I fight to keep my faith in the Church and try to ignore the very poor quality of cardinals and bishops we must endure.
 
My Bishop made a statement on immigration in this months diocsien newspaper. He said, yes nations have a right to protect their borders. But he said that the Church says that rich countries like ours have a moral responsibility to the poor of this world, including taking them in, and that our current laws are unjust. He also said that our laws don’t reflect economic realities in this country of needing more workers.

The Church is very pro-immigrant and pro-poor. The Church is supportive of Mexican immigration and wants to help them. Yes, it’s annoying to us natives to see these hoards of people coming and changing the demography of many places. But, if we want to listen to our spiritual leaders, then they are saying that we should help them. The Church’s attitude is that to much is given, much is asked. Yes, the Vatican is against this fence. It’s a very ridiculous waste of money too, so I agree with them.
Your bishop sounds misinformed at best.

US immigration laws and quotas give preference to countries whose nationals are generally considered minorities and poor in the US mainstream. In fact over 80% of immigrants welcomed to the US every year are from such countries.

The country with the largest number of legal immigrants by far is Mexico.

This all seems very much in concert with catholic teaching to me.

There are alternatives to illegal immigration to the US.

Illegal immigration into the US is against the law.

The Church teaches that we are to respect the law unless and until competent ecclesiastical authority declares the law(s) unjust.

No such ruling has ever come from the Church and as pointed out above US immigration laws do not conflict with Church teaching.
 
I would urge the angry catholics on this thread to consider the fact that your membership in the United States is a temporary matter. But your membership in the body of Christ, is eternal, if you so desire.

Kendy
I see no conflict in being a patriotic citizen of the US and a faithful member of the Church.
 
I suggest you have missed the point.

From what I have seen in this thread there has been little or no criticism of the Church. There has been much criticism of some cardinals and bishops – that is, individuals.

Criticism of those cardinals and bishops is appropriate. They are wrong. They cannot be trusted. They do not speak for the Church – but rather only their own disgusting perspective.

Rejecting the opinions of these renegades is not a criticism of the Church.
excerpts from illegal immigrations rights with some highlighting
Post #36
:
Originally Posted by Fremont

Local bishops? You have to be kidding.
They emphasize why I am so very grateful that we have the rule of law in the US and not the rule of men, laws that apply equally to everyone.
These are the guys that** aid child-abusing priests **and then **use donations **from the faithful **to bribe the victims **and their families to not tell the police. They then **lied repeatedly to the police **and the community about what they had done.
They have repeatedly shown a distain and lack of respect of our laws…
Post #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fremont
… I believe we are now in a period of too many bad bishops. …
Post #45
Originally Posted by Fremont
… As I said you are free to blindly follow your bishops if that makes you feel good and picture yourself as pious. In my opinion there are too many **dishonest bishops **for me to put much credence in anything they say on any topic.
It is heartening to me to see Pope Benedict starting to punish some of the dishonest and sexually abusing bishops that JP II protected.
:whistle: :whistle:
 
Wow! This thread has got me fuming. I live LITERALLY half a mile from the Texas/Mexico border, and with all due respect, most of the posts I have read thus far are completely ignorant to the real problems that exist down here. …
Okay, so tell us what is the best method to fix all the problems?
 
excerpts from illegal immigrations rights with some highlighting
Post #36

Post #45
:whistle: :whistle:
Although I think it is considered inappropriate to mix postings from various threads obviously you do not see that as applying to you.

But, yes I stand behind those postings I made elsewhere as well as here.

Yes, we have too many bad bishops. Yes I have very little to no respect for such bishops. And yes I am grateful that Pope Benedict seems to be trying to weed them out.
 
Okay, so tell us what is the best method to fix all the problems?
That is a pretty dumb thing to say.

I do not have be a great chef to know when I have been given a bad meal. And I do not necessarily have to know how to fix a better one.

If marci, or you or me had such answers to all the problems of the world there would be no controversy and all our problems would go away.
 
Fremont,
I’ve no doubt that my Bishop is more highly informed than you. You sound extremly arrogent by saying that my Bishop is “misinformed at best”. What a disrespectful thing to say! :eek:

This site certainly has many people who know better than our Bishops! :rolleyes:
 
Fremont,
I’ve no doubt that my Bishop is more highly informed than you. You sound extremly arrogent by saying that my Bishop is “misinformed at best”. What a disrespectful thing to say! :eek:

This site certainly has many people who know better than our Bishops! :rolleyes:
I did not mean to offend you, but the way you worded your post it certainly looked to me that your bishop was not up to date on how the US immigration laws work and how they are currently applied to minorities, the poor and others less fortunate.

The facts are that the US welcomes well over a million legal immigrants from all over the world every year. And, over 80% of those immigrants are from countries whose nationals are generally considered minorities in the US and who are generally less fortunate than the US standard. The US immigration laws are aimed at diversity so as to give people from countries from all over the world the opportunity to immigrate to the US if they wish. But not necessarily an equal chance, not all countries need the same chance do to population and many other factors.

Mexico is given a huge preference over all other countries.

That is – the US is already doing just what you said he said we should do. If he were aware of that why would he say what you said he did?

If he is not aware of all of this then he would seem ill informed, or misinformed.
 
Although I think it is considered inappropriate to mix postings from various threads obviously you do not see that as applying to you.

But, yes I stand behind those postings I made elsewhere as well as here.

Yes, we have too many bad bishops. Yes I have very little to no respect for such bishops. And yes I am grateful that Pope Benedict seems to be trying to weed them out.
Frankly my dear, you do not have a clue what I see.
 
That is a pretty dumb thing to say.

I do not have be a great chef to know when I have been given a bad meal. And I do not necessarily have to know how to fix a better one.

If marci, or you or me had such answers to all the problems of the world there would be no controversy and all our problems would go away.
Wow some one give this guy a cake for arrogance. In other threads it was explained to you that hundreds of economist many distinguished wrote the administration to SUPPORT immigration. As for the Bishops, you slam them not just for immigration but several other issues. I do not know what you have against maci - so what is it to you if she answers? And as for me well I could write it but you can not understand it. It seems being sarcastically slammed by you places one in good company. BTW “given” is the appropriate word for you, see people who “earn” understand customers and markets much better.
 
I do not see how having a fence on the border equates with being opposed to immigration.

Many immigrants come to this country legally. These legal immigrants, once here, contribute much. They hold all sorts of jobs, from doctors to migrant farm workers. Their children often fare better than their parents. Most people in the USA are either immigrants themselves or decendants of immigrants.

This is a good thing.

However, those who immigrate illegally expose themselves to much danger and exploitation. To deal justly with illegal immigration requires that we address three areas:

  1. *]Pursue and prosecute those who explot illegal immigrants.
    *]Take steps to reduce illegal entry.
    *]Examine immigration laws periodically to ensure they remain just based on current economic and civil realities.
    *]Do not harm or endanger citizens and residents who already live here.
    I see the fence as one component of item 2. Smuggling, be it goods, contraband or people, has been a problem since the very first city was built. We cannot have drug runners and human traffikers crossing the border and harming people or property.

    The decription from Marci on this thread demonstrates this is a serious problem today. Surley Marci deserves just treatment, respect and dignity. Suggesting she move is not a just response. Allowing illegal immigrants and their families to suffer and perhaps die of exposure during a dessert crossing is not justice either. A fence, properly maintained and monitored, would do much to limit (though we can never eliminate) illegal entry.

    Though easy and tempting, we cannot look at the fence in isolation, but in the context of the three points I mentioned above.

    I would also urge great caution when criticizing bishops. Though I must admit, some do not seem well informed. Others appear to fall into the easy intellectual trap of focusing on one point and completely ignoring the others, particularly point 4.
 
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