Vatican criticizes fence?

[Kendy]

This is a very good analogy, and I agree. I would not have any problem with a mission being set up INSIDE MEXICO that would offer aid, food, and comfort to Mexicans. The staff that would man the mission could even help the Mexicans fill out forms to LEGALY attain citizenship in this country. However, I think the staff must emphasize that the good citizens of Mexico who want to come here must follow the law. Why would anyone be against that?

No one is against this. There is no lack of immigration lawyers to help immigrants fill out immigration form. We are not talking about people who don’t want to pay for ticket fees. Trust me, I know immigrant families who have used over $10,000 to get false documents because they can’t get real ones. It’s more like not having enough tickets on sale for a game eventhough there are seats in the stadium.

Kendy

 

[rpp]

No one is against this. There is no lack of immigration lawyers to help immigrants fill out immigration form. We are not talking about people who don’t want to pay for ticket fees. Trust me, I know immigrant families who have used over $10,000 to get false documents because they can’t get real ones. It’s more like not having enough tickets on sale for a game eventhough there are seats in the stadium.

Kendy

Continuing with the ball park analogy, I will go along with the need to “expand the available seating”. Obviously if someone will pay these slimy coyote scum are human traffickers!] to smuggle them across the border then obviously money is not the issue.

This is why I have suggested all along that immigration laws must be periodically reviewed and revised. That is just one part of the whole immigration formula. There are several simultaneous issues that need to be addressed, the laws themselves, border security, and justice for those already here (native and immigrant). Too much focus on one area causes serious problems in the others.

 

[Cossack1]

It’s more like not having enough tickets on sale for a game eventhough there are seats in the stadium.Kendy

This thread is about stopping illegal aliens from coming over our sovereign border illegally by using a fence. Fences, doors, and locks are typically used to keep out those who are not legally entitled to enter. Don’t make it more complicated than that. I still find it hard to believe a Vatican official criticized this.

 

[Kendy]

This thread is about stopping illegal aliens from coming over our sovereign border illegally by using a fence. Fences, doors, and locks are typically used to keep out those who are not legally entitled to enter. Don’t make it more complicated than that. I still find it hard to believe a Vatican official criticized this.

I am inclined to agree with you; I would not say that the fence is inhumane, but perhaps the vatican official was not so much criticizing the fence but the spirit behind the fence. The fence is one more reactionary policy which avoids implementing humane immigration reform.

And also, it is a little more complicated building a fence. Perhaps, after insituting real immigration reform, then the govt. can determine whether the fence is a good investment. Think of all the finacial resources spent chasing people who just want to work. Perhaps, we could free up those resources to catch the drug smugglers, crimininals, and terrorists.

Kendy

 

[Karianne]

Maybe it is time to get this thread back onto the initial point.

There is an arrogant cardinal in Rome - surrounded by fences, barricades and guards all focused on controlling the movements of all but a few people and barring entry to Vatican areas to all but Vatican citizens and workers - who criticizes the US for proposing to build a fence to protect our southern border.

It is legitimate and fitting for all Americans to brand this cardinal as a hypocrite and reject his ranting.

 

[Karianne]

I did not see a thread on the Vatican’s comments about the US fence being cruel. I am very disappointed that the Vatican has gone the easy, unthinking, and automatic route of jumping on the “bash US “ bandwagon. All countries are literally defined by their borders. We have millions of Hispanics and, quite possibly, mid east terrorist swarming over our borders every day. Just what is it the Vatican expects us to do?

Instead of criticism over this country doing its best to defend its own borders the Vatican has to tell us we are the ones who are wrong. When did this world get so backward and so ridiculous that a country like the US is told it can not protect itself? Such silly criticisms seem to always be focused on this great country that has helped millions of people over the years. Why would the Vatican, of all places, join in making the US the brunt of such a comment?

You have to understand that the fence would be expensive and worthless, they would just tunnel under it.
Also, a lot of Mexicans sincerely believe that we stole Texas from them, so they don’t think that they are in error.
I don’t see that they are harming anyone, they want to work, they are not here to commit crimes.
I’m on the side of the Cardinal, which actually surprises even me!

 

[Fremont]

I don’t see that they are harming anyone, they want to work, they are not here to commit crimes.

“not here to commit crimes”?

I guess I cannot agree.

Any foreign national entering this country illegally commits a crime. Any foreign national working in this country without permission commits a crime. Any foreign national using a stolen social security number commits a crime.

The list can go on but the facts are that illegal immigrants commit numerous crimes every day.

In addition use of a stolen social security number violates the privacy rights of the legitimate holder of that number. The Church teaches it is wrong for anyone to violate the rights of another.

Thus such acts are not only illegal and a crime under US secular laws, they are a violation of Church teaching.

 

[Fremont]

Also, a lot of Mexicans sincerely believe that we stole Texas from them, so they don’t think that they are in error.

I am afraid I cannot agree with this position either.

No matter what someone “sincerely believes” entering the US illegally and violating various other US laws is not justified.

There are many, if not all, Palestinians that “sincerely believe” Israel stole their land and do not think they are in error in doing their various acts. I do not support their behavior either.

 

[Cossack1]

The fence is one more reactionary policy which avoids implementing humane immigration reform.

Kendy

No, what is “reactionary” is the typical blame the United States first crowd.I am afraid the good Cardinal is amoung the group who unthinkingly assumes the US is always the bully. This fence is nothing more than you locking your doors at night.

 

[Cossack1]

Perhaps, we could free up those resources to catch the drug smugglers, crimininals, and terrorists.

Kendy

Or perhaps those criminal types are already in our midst due to our lack of security on our border. The fence IS a good use of resources. That and having the fence manned with National Guard troops.

 

[Cossack1]

You have to understand that the fence would be expensive and worthless, they would just tunnel under it.
Also, a lot of Mexicans sincerely believe that we stole Texas from them, so they don’t think that they are in error.
I don’t see that they are harming anyone, they want to work, they are not here to commit crimes.
I’m on the side of the Cardinal, which actually surprises even me!

Sure, you’re right let’s just let anyone and everyone into this country. We are all just citizens of mother earth right? They are merely here to be fruit pickers and busboys right? I am sure there can not possibly be any terrorist, drug smugglers, and gang members among the bunch. In fact I think you should be a good Catholic and take the locks off your doors. If those homeless people out there want your fine china they need it more than you any way right? I bet you have a full belly so what would be wrong with people coming in off the street to make a sandwich in your kitchen? I am sure the street people have ave good intentions and will never bother your teenage daughter or shake down your son. RIGHT?

The level of naïveté and just plain ignorance in this forum just blows me away. We won’t have to fight for our country it will just simply be quietly taken over when people such as you simply give in one mistake at a time.

 

[Kendy]

Or perhaps those criminal types are already in our midst due to our lack of security on our border. The fence IS a good use of resources. That and having the fence manned with National Guard troops.

No one has a problem with fighting criminals. Some of us have a problem with criminalizing hard working families who just want to work.

Kendy

 

[rpp]

No one has a problem with fighting criminals. Some of us have a problem with criminalizing hard working families who just want to work.

Kendy

That is not the issue. No one doubts that many who come here illegally, have that in mind. But many others who come here illegally are not hard-working families.

To have no control at the border invites diaster. That is not an exaggeration.

An frankly control means saying “No” at times.

 

[Kendy]

That is not the issue. No one doubts that many who come here illegally, have that in mind. But many others who come here illegally are not hard-working families.

To have no control at the border invites diaster. That is not an exaggeration.

An frankly control means saying “No” at times.

This argument is somewhat unnecessary. I would be happy to people have their fence if the United States would implement immigration reform, which make it possible for people have legal status.

But immigration reform, no fence!

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

That is not the issue. No one doubts that many who come here illegally, have that in mind. But many others who come here illegally are not hard-working families.

To have no control at the border invites diaster. That is not an exaggeration.

An frankly control means saying “No” at times.

This argument is somewhat unnecessary. I would be happy to people have their fence if the United States would implement immigration reform, which make it possible for people have legal status.

But no immigration reform, no fence!

Kendy

 

[rpp]

This argument is somewhat unnecessary. I would be happy to people have their fence if the United States would implement immigration reform, which make it possible for people have legal status.

But no immigration reform, no fence!

Kendy

This is what I have been saying all along, though not quite in those terms. Permit me to quote myself.

I do not see how having a fence on the border equates with being opposed to immigration.

Many immigrants come to this country legally. These legal immigrants, once here, contribute much. They hold all sorts of jobs, from doctors to migrant farm workers. Their children often fare better than their parents. Most people in the USA are either immigrants themselves or decendants of immigrants.

This is a good thing.

However, those who immigrate illegally expose themselves to much danger and exploitation. To deal justly with illegal immigration requires that we address three areas:

1. 
   *]Pursue and prosecute those who explot illegal immigrants.
   *]Take steps to reduce illegal entry.
   *]Examine immigration laws periodically to ensure they remain just based on current economic and civil realities.
   *]Do not harm or endanger citizens and residents who already live here.
   I see the fence as one component of item 2. Smuggling, be it goods, contraband or people, has been a problem since the very first city was built. We cannot have drug runners and human traffikers crossing the border and harming people or property.
   
   The decription from Marci on this thread demonstrates this is a serious problem today. Surley Marci deserves just treatment, respect and dignity. Suggesting she move is not a just response. Allowing illegal immigrants and their families to suffer and perhaps die of exposure during a dessert crossing is not justice either. A fence, properly maintained and monitored, would do much to limit (though we can never eliminate) illegal entry.
   
   Though easy and tempting, we cannot look at the fence in isolation, but in the context of the three points I mentioned above.
   
   I would also urge great caution when criticizing bishops. Though I must admit, some do not seem well informed. Others appear to fall into the easy intellectual trap of focusing on one point and completely ignoring the others, particularly point 4.

 

[Kendy]

This is what I have been saying all along, though not quite in those terms. Permit me to quote myself.

Well, I haven’t found your post to be particularly anti-immigrant.

 

[rpp]

Well, I haven’t found your post to be particularly anti-immigrant.

Well, thank you. I did not think you you did.

I have found your posts interesting, thought I think I am a little less optimistic about the over quality of people who are illegal immigrants.

I would reject an anti-immigrant position. Likewaise, I would reject an utterly open boarder policy. The former because it is selfishly unjust, the later because it imperils those who live here; America has many enemies, be they terrorists, human (sex) traffickers or drug traffickers among many others.

 

[Cossack1]

No one has a problem with fighting criminals. Some of us have a problem with criminalizing hard working families who just want to work.

Kendy

First, you have no way of knowing if ONLY hard working families are coming here. There are plenty of drug smugglers and gang members in Mexico too. Terrorists are surely looking at entering our country in this way.

Secondly, these “hard working families” often use up social services like the free medical care at emergency rooms. Are YOU wiling to pay for all that? There have been entire ERs that were shut down by the high demand from illegal aliens. What happens when your kid gets hurt in an accident and can not get help because the hospital is full of Mexicans who are there with the sniffles?

 

[Cossack1]

.

But no immigration reform, no fence!

Kendy

So you are willing to risk the security of your fellow citizens and the rights of people who own property in the area so that your agenda can be realized. That is short sighted and selfish. You are willing to shoot your own country in the foot.