Vatican criticizes fence?

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It seems that some posters are forgetting that this and ALL other countries have a basic right and a duty to its citizens to defend and protect their borders. ALL countries are quite literally defined by its borders. Those who are against protecting the borders with a fence and even the national guard are supporting anarchy.

This is a nation of laws. Jesus certainly did not advocate lawlessness. Why are any of you? Laws protect a country’s citizen’s right to be safe, have and enjoy property, and pursue happiness. It seems there are too many in this board who would prefer to subject the citizens to losing their rights because it seems like the “nice” thing to do to simply let the poor illegal aliens in. Such thinking is reactionary and not very thoughtful. I again restate that I am simply amazed that a simple fence around a country receives any resistance. I suppose next such people will lobby for the elimination of locks on doors because it is offensive and shows lack of trust to street people walking by.
 
FYI, all should check out Fremont’s post titled "Criminal acts by illegal immigrants becoming more cruel and harmful " I am sure that this is just the tip of the iceberg when anarchy is allowed.
 
Well, thank you. I did not think you you did. 🙂

I have found your posts interesting, thought I think I am a little less optimistic about the over quality of people who are illegal immigrants.

I would reject an anti-immigrant position. Likewaise, I would reject an utterly open boarder policy. The former because it is selfishly unjust, the later because it imperils those who live here; America has many enemies, be they terrorists, human (sex) traffickers or drug traffickers among many others.
Well, I have lived around illegal immigrants my whole life. When I moved from Miami to Chicago, I got to live among Mexican illegals. So, I know that most people come here to work.
 
First, you have no way of knowing if ONLY hard working families are coming here. There are plenty of drug smugglers and gang members in Mexico too. Terrorists are surely looking at entering our country in this way.
Yes. So, why don’t we provide a means for workers to have legal access, and then spend our energies fighting criminals. I would be against the border crossers too if they had reasonable means of legally entry. Like I said, NO REFORM! NO FENCE!
Secondly, these “hard working families” often use up social services like the free medical care at emergency rooms. Are YOU wiling to pay for all that?
Well, let’s see. I live in a city with a high Mexican population. I am tax payer so I pay for health care at public hospitals. So, I already do pay for illegal aliens to get health care. And no, I don’t really mind. I would rather pay for someone heath care than have them die because I didn’t want to pay for it.
There have been entire ERs that were shut down by the high demand from illegal aliens. What happens when your kid gets hurt in an accident and can not get help because the hospital is full of Mexicans who are there with the sniffles?
Well, I doubt a lot of people are going to hospitals for the sniffles. But I would hope that the city of Chicago would fund
the system adequately to take care of all our residents. The Mexicans workers who live here contribute to our economy. Some of them pay taxes, some of them don’t. But those that don’t don’t make enough money to pay for health care anyway. It is incumbent on us who benefit from their chyeap labor to help them in time of need.

I am not the type of person who gets upset because someone is using my resources. If I, or my country, can help someone in need, it only gives me great joy.

Kendy
 
So you are willing to risk the security of your fellow citizens and the rights of people who own property in the area so that your agenda can be realized. That is short sighted and selfish. You are willing to shoot your own country in the foot.
No one will be happy to hear me say this, but it’s true. I don’t love Americans more than I love Mexicans. I want Americans to be fair to the Mexican workers whose labor our corporations exploit. And I will not give my consent to any project which protects Americans at the expense of Mexicans. God loves all of us, and personally, I find it difficult to live as a Christian with nationalist instincts. Other people don’t seem to have a problem with is. I am not saying they are violating church teaching. I need to read up on it, but for me, it just doesn’t seem to work.

The only real loyalty I feel (besides my immideiate family) is to my faith. And since the Mexican immigrants are catholics; I am happy to welcome them.

Because I love the Mexican people I would prefer that they could come here legally, but my government refuses to implement reform.
Kendy
 
It seems that some posters are forgetting that this and ALL other countries have a basic right and a duty to its citizens to defend and protect their borders. ALL countries are quite literally defined by its borders. Those who are against protecting the borders with a fence and even the national guard are supporting anarchy.

This is a nation of laws. Jesus certainly did not advocate lawlessness. Why are any of you? Laws protect a country’s citizen’s right to be safe, have and enjoy property, and pursue happiness. It seems there are too many in this board who would prefer to subject the citizens to losing their rights because it seems like the “nice” thing to do to simply let the poor illegal aliens in. Such thinking is reactionary and not very thoughtful. I again restate that I am simply amazed that a simple fence around a country receives any resistance. I suppose next such people will lobby for the elimination of locks on doors because it is offensive and shows lack of trust to street people walking by.
I have said before I am not against the fence necessarily. (Although most countries don’t have fence). But I want immigration reform and I am willing to use opposition to the fence to get what I want.

And don’t patronize. I have thought about this long and hard. I have studied it, and I have lived it. It’s not about being nice. It’s the right thing to do. Beyond, all the economic considerations, there are the biblical injunctions to treat the alien justly. Yes, God gives us the right to govern our borders, but this is not a blank check. The Earth is ultimately the Lord, every square inch of it. None of it belongs to the group of people who happened to have gotten here first, and the government has the RESPONSIBILITY to faciliate and monitor immigration to make sure that it works in an orderly manner. That’s all!

Kendy
 
Catholic in name does not mean catholic in practice. I live on the texas border where over 85% of the population are mexican and the majority of them are catholic. All one need do is look at the rate of abortion and illigitamacy rates among hispanics in the US to figure out that they are no more practicing catholics then the majority of americans who call themselves catholic.
I have made neither of these assumptions. Often when someone advocates a particular view, we lump them into our neat, cookie-cutter models, and assume we know something about them and what they think about us. I will not fit any of your neat cookie-cutter models. I have made none of the assumptions that you accuse me of having made. But you, like many of others on this thread, have made plenty of assumptions about me and my motivations.

I have advocated no border removing policy. I do not think it would be wise. Major politican changes don’t occur by fiat, but through evolution. I am ok with borders as long as no one turns them into an all-consuming identity.
Give the US a break, the “citizen of the world mentality” employed by the liberal white globtroters and heads of multinational corporations works for them in their gated communities and inside the beltway coctail parties, but it leaves the average Joe in a very precarious situation.
The US is the only thing that stands in the way of the UN running the world stage. Believe me, that is not something any christian in any part of the world should hope for.😉
You have made a lot of assumptions about me, which could not be further from the truth. I am not white. I am not liberal. I have not travelled out of the country in 17 years. I don’t work for a multi-national corporation. I don’t go to cocktail parties. I don’t live in a gated community, but rather in a black ghetto. Far from being a member of the elite, I struggle evey month to pay my bills. However, I do recognize that some “average joes” happen to be Mexicans.

As for the US keeping the UN from running the world. It’s besides the point. I am not in favor of a one-government world. I am wary of some of the policies of the UN. but I am also wary of some US policies. The US does not have a monopoly on virtue and the UN does not have a monopoly on evil. There are cases where I wish the US would follow UN policies, and there are cases when I am glad that the US opposed United Nations policies. All in all, due to the fact that there’s plenty of evil in every human heart, I prefer an international stage with balance of power.

Kendy
 
Well, the Hispanic parishes in Chicago are certainly more active than the American parishes. And even when there’s bad behavior, there’s not the same kind of arrogant dissent you find among US catholics. But that’s not really relevant. We are united by baptism, not by perfect adherence, and when a brother errs you correct him, you don’t declare him a non-brother. (Unless, he excommunicates himself).
A “Hispanic” parish versus an “American” parish? Interesting choice of phrasing. Are these parishes not in America? And, what country do “Hispanics” belong to? Hispaniola?

Anyway, it sounds like you have language-specific parishes in Chicago, and that is sad. I have been a member of parishes with Spanish Masses, but we always have tried to keep the people united as one community. It doesn’t always work, because a lot of the Spanish speaking churchgoers are uncomfortable with their English speaking abilities, and therefore uncomfortable joining in. We have had some success though.

If we are united by baptism, we shouldn’t be divided based on our country of origin or language…maybe another reason to bring back the Latin!

God bless,

Robert
 
A “Hispanic” parish versus an “American” parish? Interesting choice of phrasing. Are these parishes not in America? And, what country do “Hispanics” belong to? Hispaniola?

Anyway, it sounds like you have language-specific parishes in Chicago, and that is sad. I have been a member of parishes with Spanish Masses, but we always have tried to keep the people united as one community. It doesn’t always work, because a lot of the Spanish speaking churchgoers are uncomfortable with their English speaking abilities, and therefore uncomfortable joining in. We have had some success though.

If we are united by baptism, we shouldn’t be divided based on our country of origin or language…maybe another reason to bring back the Latin!

God bless,

Robert
There are also black parishes in Chicago, where the Music and decorations are more African-American. We also have Polish parishes, with missals in Polish, and a handful of vietnamese and Haitian Parishes.

Personally, I would prefer this were not the case, but people prefer the music and traditions they grew up with. This is normal and usually fades by the third generation as it has in the past.

Except for black catholic churches. Those seem like they are here to stay.

Kendy
 
So, why don’t we provide a means for workers to have legal access, and then spend our energies fighting criminals. Kendy
That is one of the most backward comments I have seen on this thread. You want to let them all in and THEN eliminate the criminals? Why not stop them from coming in to this country in the first place with a fence patrolled by the national guard?
So, I already do pay for illegal aliens to get health care. And no, I don’t really mind. I would rather pay for someone heath care than have them die because I didn’t want to pay for it. Kendy
Perhaps you don’t care if you are taken advantage of and have your hard earned money used to pay for illegal aliens but you have no right to decide that for the rest of us. Where do you draw the line? Are you willing to have an increase in your tax rate to 50%, 75%, 90%? Are you willing to pay for Central Americans to come here for free medical? How about all of South America? Hec, why not let the whole world come on in? We are all filthy rich Americans right?

What you are suggesting is Marxism. I think the Soviet Union has shown that does not work. You certainly do not have the right to decide that I or your neighbor must pay the way of those who have entered our country illegally.
Well, I doubt a lot of people are going to hospitals for the sniffles Kendy
You would be wrong. As I have already explained, entire emergency rooms have been shut down because the illegal aliens do not have a regular physician. Therefore they use the hospital for everything… You ignored my question as to how youe would feel if your child needed medical help but the local hospital was clogged with illegals.
 
Perhaps you don’t care if you are taken advantage of and have your hard earned money used to pay for illegal aliens but you have no right to decide that for the rest of us. Where do you draw the line? Are you willing to have an increase in your tax rate to 50%, 75%, 90%? Are you willing to pay for Central Americans to come here for free medical? How about all of South America? Hec, why not let the whole world come on in? We are all filthy rich Americans right?
I have as much right to express my opinion as any other citizen. I have the right to one vote as anyone else.
Also, you have twisted my comments to fit your exaggerated vision of my position and its consequences. This comment is not really worth responding to because it is disconnected to anything I said.
What you are suggesting is Marxism. I think the Soviet Union has shown that does not work. You certainly do not have the right to decide that I or your neighbor must pay the way of those who have entered our country illegally.
I am suggesting no such thing. Communism requires centralized control of the means of production. It requires tight restriction of employment and services. I have advocated no such thing. In fact, you will find, if you research it, that the most free market economists are very pro-immigration because they think the free movement of workers is good for the economy. The anti-immigration forces are closer to communist in that they are protectionist and want to restrict the movement of workers.

That I happen to believe that there must be social services to meet certain needs when the market is unable to meet that need does that make me a communist. For the record, I believe that free trade offers the best response to poverty, INCLUDING THE FREE EXCHANGE OF LABOR. I believe in free markets,
You would be wrong. As I have already explained, entire emergency rooms have been shut down because the illegal aliens do not have a regular physician. Therefore they use the hospital for everything… You ignored my question as to how youe would feel if your child needed medical help but the local hospital was clogged with illegals.
Like every human, I would be frustrated and perhaps, even angry if I needed medical service and I could not get it. However, I would not be more upset because the people clogging were illegal immigrants.

Kendy
 
That is one of the most backward comments I have seen on this thread. You want to let them all in and THEN eliminate the criminals? Why not stop them from coming in to this country in the first place with a fence patrolled by the national guard?
.
No, again, you misunderstand me. Currently, the US has the following immigration policy------- Ignore the immigration problem. Look the other way as people come in illegally. Do nothing about corporations who hire and exploit them. Until it’s time for an election, then politicians get everybody all stirred up about illegal immigration. And when the politicians get their votes, they go back to doing nothing.

Well, I happen to think this policy is bad for immigrants as well as the American people. I want to see reform AS WELL AS enforcement of law. The fence is an enforcement mechanism, which will do nothing to address the limbo status of current immigrants who have no means of normalizing their status nor does it provide an avenue for future immigrants. So, I reject it because it is inadequate.

Kendy
 
For the record, I believe that free trade offers the best response to poverty, INCLUDING THE FREE EXCHANGE OF LABOR. I believe in free markets,
Kendy
We live in a world with borders that define individual countries. The US economy is strong, but illegal immigration harms our economy. The strong US economy does indeed benefit the rest of the world. People like you want to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. If you want one big world where EVERYONE is a citizen you will have to start a colony on Mars. My concern is to preserve and protect the US economy, and if you are also an American you should share this duty.
have as much right to express my opinion as any other citizen. I have the right to one vote as anyone else.
Also, you have twisted my comments to fit your exaggerated vision of my position and its consequences. This comment is not really worth responding to because it is disconnected to anything I said. Kendy
I have no problem with you expressing your opinion. You stated that you had no problem paying for the care of illegal aliens. This means you are in favor of diverting government tax dollars for this purpose. The use of tax dollars and any subsequent rising of tax rates certainly do affect me and your neighbor. Taking your logic to its ultimate conclusion certainly does fit my question to you. How much of mine and your tax dollars are you willing to spend? Will you ONLY spend it on Mexicans? Why not Guatemalans? How about Africans? I have not misstated your position at all. You favor open borders that let anyone and everyone in. I want a fence and the National Guard to stop illegal aliens and I want strict immigration laws that will not allow legal immigrants with criminal records or who are unemployed.
most free market economists are very pro-immigration because they think the free movement of workers is good for the economy. Kendy
I think you forgot the word “legal” before immigration. There are no responsible economists out there who favor the version of illegal immigration as you spin it. What you favor will hurt this country in the long run. The jobs done by illegal immigrants are not jobs Americans will not do they are jobs never offered to Americans.
Like every human, I would be frustrated and perhaps, even angry if I needed medical service and I could not get it. However, I would not be more upset because the people clogging were illegal immigrants. Kendy
Why not? Had these people entered the country legally and obtained a job in the usual means this would not happen. The use of medical services is just one portion of the social services used by illegal aliens. They also commit a disproportionate amount of crime and consume welfare money. If you are an American I question why you want to do harm to your own country. If you are here illegally yourself I understand why you support illegal aliens breaking our law, but it does not make what you say true.
 
The fence is an enforcement mechanism, which will do nothing to address the limbo status of current immigrants who have no means of normalizing their status nor does it provide an avenue for future immigrants. So, I reject it because it is inadequate.
Kendy
That is why the fence needs the support of foot and air patrols by the National Guard to preserve its integrity. As for the 12 million our government has already allowed to enter I reluctantly support a guest worker program.
 
I also ask those Catholics who oppose a fence to ask themselves what Jesus would tell the poor of Mexico. Would He tell them to illegally storm over the border and take jobs away from legal Americans? I doubt it. He would certainly encourage us In America to suport charitable work in Mexico, but He would also appeal to the overtly corrupt MEXICAN government to serve its people better. Mexico is rich in oil and their citizens should be of the same status as our Canadian neighbors.

In th mean time we in the US have a duty to protect our citizens with this fence.
 
We live in a world with borders that define individual countries. The US economy is strong, but illegal immigration harms our economy. The strong US economy does indeed benefit the rest of the world. People like you want to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. If you want one big world where EVERYONE is a citizen you will have to start a colony on Mars. My concern is to preserve and protect the US economy, and if you are also an American you should share this duty.
I get concerned when the person I am speaking to is as disconnected from what I saying. Are you talking to me or the person you think I am. I challenge you to find where I said, I want a one-world government. In fact, I remember saying the opposite. I remember saying, that I don’t want a one world government but a balance of global power. So, you are clearly arguing with someone in your own imagination.
I have no problem with you expressing your opinion. You stated that you had no problem paying for the care of illegal aliens. This means you are in favor of diverting government tax dollars for this purpose. The use of tax dollars and any subsequent rising of tax rates certainly do affect me and your neighbor. Taking your logic to its ultimate conclusion certainly does fit my question to you. How much of mine and your tax dollars are you willing to spend? Will you ONLY spend it on Mexicans? Why not Guatemalans? How about Africans? I have not misstated your position at all. You favor open borders that let anyone and everyone in. I want a fence and the National Guard to stop illegal aliens and I want strict immigration laws that will not allow legal immigrants with criminal records or who are unemployed.
First, of all you are engaging in ridiculous hyperbole. We are responsible for helping our neighbors who work in our communities some of whom have lived in this counry for 10-20 years. Your scenerio is silly because it is not the most efficient method to provide relief for anyone, and therefore, it’s not a policy I would support.

AND FOR THE LAST TIME, I DO NOT FAVOR OPEN BORDERS. You are so busy with what you think I am saying that you have no idea what I am saying. What kind delusional person translate, “I want immigration reform.” into I want open borders and a one-world government.:confused:
I think you forgot the word “legal” before immigration. There are no responsible economists out there who favor the version of illegal immigration as you spin it. What you favor will hurt this country in the long run. The jobs done by illegal immigrants are not jobs Americans will not do they are jobs never offered to Americans.
Many economist think that illegal immigrants have done good to our economy, and that we need to normalize their status. As I have said before, no one wants illegal immigration. I want to implement reform so facilitate the LEGAL migration of migrant workers.
Why not? Had these people entered the country legally and obtained a job in the usual means this would not happen. The use of medical services is just one portion of the social services used by illegal aliens. They also commit a disproportionate amount of crime and consume welfare money. If you are an American I question why you want to do harm to your own country. If you are here illegally yourself I understand why you support illegal aliens breaking our law, but it does not make what you say true.
I am not an illegal alien. I am not the only American who is pro-immigrant. My last boss hired illegal immigrants on principle. He would give them time off to go to marches. I know an American social workers who works with illegal immigrants.

I have no problem with people entering this country legally, that’s why I want immigration reform so that people who want to come here legally don’t have to resort to illegal immigration.

As for harming America, I grew up in Miami so I know first hand how much good immigrants, illegal and legal, can do for the American economy. Immigration has turned Miami into a world class international city. Before 1950, it was a sleepy southern town, and now, it’s one of the largest metropolitan centers in the country.

Kendy
 
I get concerned when the person I am speaking to is as disconnected from what I saying. Are you talking to me or the person you think I am. I challenge you to find where I said, I want a one-world government. In fact, I remember saying the opposite. I remember saying, that I don’t want a one world government but a balance of global power. So, you are clearly arguing with someone in your own imagination.

Kendy
You have made it clear how you feel by saying that there should not be a fence without immigration reform. What you fail to understand is that your liberal open door policy will make any fence moot. I only want legal immigrants without criminal records, who have had background checks for gang membership, diseases, etc., ones who have good prospects for gainful employment, and it would be nice if they spoke English. From what I can tell you have not sited any such stringent requiremtns.
First, of all you are engaging in ridiculous hyperbole. We are responsible for helping our neighbors who work in our communities some of whom have lived in this counry for 10-20 years. Kendy
In true liberal fashion you simply wish to sidestep the issue of paying for your wild ideas. This is the second time I have asked you how your want to finance your intentions to pay the way for all the medical needs of these illegal aliens. Here is a radical idea; how about reserving our funds to help our AMERICAN neighbors who are here legally?
AND FOR THE LAST TIME, I DO NOT FAVOR OPEN BORDERS. Kendy
Ok, then what are your criteria for immigration reform? Just who would you allow in here since you are prepared to not have a fence before your strange ideas are implemented.
Many economist think that illegal immigrants have done good to our economy, and that we need to normalize their status. As I have said before, no one wants illegal immigration. I want to implement reform so facilitate the LEGAL migration of migrant workers. Kendy
You will have to forgive me if I do not believe you. Please provide a list of these “many economist.” I am a fan of Thomas Sowell and he has said the following:

Some free-market advocates argue that the same principle which justifies free international trade in commodities should justify the free movement of people as well. But this ignores the fact that people have consequences that go far beyond the consequences of commodities.
Commodities are used up and vanish. People generate more people, who become a permanent and expanding part of the country’s population and electorate.
It is an irreversible process – and a potentially dangerous process, as Europeans have discovered with their “guest worker” programs that have brought in many Muslims who are fundamentally hostile to the culture and the people that welcomed them.
Unlike commodities, people in a welfare state have legal claims on other people’s tax dollars and expensive services in schools and hospitals, not to mention the high cost of imprisoning many of them who commit crimes.

I know that other respected economist like Walter E. Williams and Brian Westbury agree. Just who are your references?
As for harming America, I grew up in Miami so I know first hand how much good immigrants, illegal and legal, can do for the American economy. Immigration has turned Miami into a world class international city. Before 1950, it was a sleepy southern town, and now, it’s one of the largest metropolitan centers in the country. Kendy
Many argue Miami has become a third world country. You seem to have serious problems understanding cause and effect. You can not have 12 million people in this country consuming US services and making up for it with low paying jobs like picking fruit or bussing tables. It just does not add up. As second generation illegal immigrants live here they demand instructions and signs in Spanish instead of English. They commit a disproportionate amount of crime and use up medical services. On and on people have told you this in this thread and other post yet you ignore these facts. You seem to be one of these naïve people that think money does indeed grow on trees. (Of coarse you would also be the type to hire a flock of illegal immigrants to pick the money, LOL)

What you don’t realize is that for the reasons I give above and in other posts this country is being hamstrung from within by people like you. I really hate to see this. The US has give billions of dollars in foreign aid and military assistance in the past and currently. We enjoy the highest standard of living anywhere. All this will slowly end if we do not remain a nation that respects its own laws. It is bad enough when foreigners ignore our rules, but I can not understand why people like you do as well. I really believe that you have some hidden agenda.
 
It is distressing to see the Vatican take sides against a soveriegn country trying to protect its sovereignty and the well being of its citizens. Not only are the illgelas changing the culture of this country…slowly but surely…but they are bringing crime and disease in with them. Back in the days when immigration policy was actually ENFORCED prospective immigrants had to pass health screenings. That surely doesn’t happen now when illegals are coming through the border.

I love my church and I respect the Pope…but this is an instance where he should stay out of it…totally!

:heart:Blyss
 
It is distressing to see the Vatican take sides against a soveriegn country trying to protect its sovereignty and the well being of its citizens. Not only are the illgelas changing the culture of this country…slowly but surely…but they are bringing crime and disease in with them. Back in the days when immigration policy was actually ENFORCED prospective immigrants had to pass health screenings. That surely doesn’t happen now when illegals are coming through the border.

I love my church and I respect the Pope…but this is an instance where he should stay out of it…totally!

:heart:Blyss
If it’s any comfort, the Vatican recognizes and respects our sovereignity. The “FENCE” is a controversial issue that has many aspects to it. Many have problems with the fence even Homeland Security and our Border Patrol. Hence, criticizing the fence does not necessarily put us at odds with our sovereign rights. Mostly the fences’ focus is on 700 hundred miles of our border which would leave 1300 miles of that border unaddressed. The fence is simply ill advised and ill conceived as there is every indication that it won’t work and will be waste of valuable resources, economic and natural. We’ve increased fencing dramatically since 1986 and it has not been an effective policy. Fencing has produced larger death tolls on those risking everything to get here and has helped to line the pockets of “coyotes” while failing to reduce “illegal” immigration. It’s an “inhumane” venture and I think that is the basis upon which the Vatican is displeased with the idea of a 700 mile fence.
 
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