Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

[Pnkn]

It IS rather difficult for an older nun to transfer to a different order. When the woman was accepted into the order in the first place, the order took on the responsibility of her care when she grew too old to serve. First the woman serves, and then is served.

Another order would not have the resources to care for an elderly woman, as the care was not planned for or anticipated.

So there are many nuns, though quite old, still wear the habit, and are still faithful to the Magisterium, while their ‘younger’ sisters protest Church teachings.

Pray for all these women.

Hello -

I don’t believe for a moment that a “conservative” order would refuse to take a transfer nun/sister on account of her age when the sole reason for the transfer was to continue a devotion to the faith as opposed to living in community with those who stray from the faith.

Do you have specific information from orders outside the LCWR saying that they refuse to accept women who are older and who are transferring for reasons of fidelity to the faith ?

Pnkn

 

[choose_to_love]

@jwinch, post #152: Sgt. Oddball, Kelly’s Heroes. “Always with the negative waves, Moriarity!”

 

[jwinch2]

@jwinch, post #152: Sgt. Oddball, Kelly’s Heroes. “Always with the negative waves, Moriarity!”

Someone beat you to it in a PM a few days ago, but bonus points to you nonetheless.

 

[choose_to_love]

thank you kindly, jwinch!

 

[Tigg]

Do you think that there should be a special prayer campaign for this intention? What would be a good prayer? Something that would be easy for people to keep up with on a daily basis.

And while we’re praying for the religious who are involved with all manner of things anti-Catholic, please pray for a purification of the Church - at all levels. (I’d start with the book of 2 Chronicles, Chapter 29.) We live with much deception and hear heresy spoken quite frequently these days - if we but ask for discernment and pray for eyes to see, we might just understand the danger in those places we least expect it.

 

[opus101]

Hello -

I’m not reading/seeing anywhere that those women who are in congregations/orders that belong to the LCWR are forced to remain in their congregation/order.

Thanks,
Pnkn

I think the Benedictines take a vow of “stability” (to remain in the monastery where they entered). Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

In my area, all of the communities are LCWR except for a cloistered community and a really strange active one - the faithful sisters might feel they have nowhere to go.

 

[opus101]

Hello -

If a sister/nun disagrees with the theology of her congregation/order, why not leave that group and transfer to one that is compatible with the faith (such as those congregations/orders who belong to the alternative leadership conference) ?

Thanks,
Pnkn

It’s not as easy as you make it seem. Many of them probably don’t even know that there is another leadership conference, it’s not like these motherhouses are teeming with publications that would give these sisters any info on the “opposition”. Probably many of the elderly ones do not have good computer skills either. How would they find out about these other communities in the first place, let alone go through (on their own) all of the necessary steps to transfer.

 

[opus101]

Hello -

In the Roman Catholic religion, aren’t parents supposed to be the ones who teach the faith (and how to live it) ?

Thanks,
Pnkn

Yes, and they don’t need to be contradicted by the false teaching that is prevalent in many Catholic schools. That causes confusion.

 

[iloveangels]

I’m sorry my proposal wasn’t more clear. Nothing I proposed was intended to affect in the least the course set by the Holy See. Nor did I or would I presume to tell Bishop Sartain how to do the task he has been given; I addressed neither topic. Nor did I address the future report on individual congregations.

Besides the two specific prayers after Mass, all I proposed was a way of funding housing, living expenses and medical care for the long-suffering Religious who wish there were a way out from under the control of the LCWR/NETWORK/etc. crowd. You know far better than I about extant organizational and financial structures relating to nuns/Sisters, and therefore how best to use the new funding I proposed to rescue the said Religious as soon as possible, not in ten or 15 years, if ever.

Perhaps some believe that Bishop Sartain et al. have an even chance to convert the majority of the LCWR/NETWORK crowd, and that everything will work out soon. It is my personal opinion that the Vatican and the good bishop do not believe it will be that easy. The fact is that in all probability we are looking at a long, nasty fight–especially when it gets down to who gets what parts of physical plants and of whatever may be left of current treasuries.

Nevertheless, for legal, PR and canonical reasons, the Vatican has little choice but to take the two-part measures it has laid out. Since you think I said that I oppose that course of action, please rest assured, good lady, I did not intend to even imply it.

I also believe that the folks in Rome and the USCCB would not want to let the good nuns and Sisters suffer for years on end–and it could get worse for them–while the battle continues. That need not happen, and I’d bet that authentic American Catholics would not let it happen if a few of their dollars and prayers were all it took.

Again, I’m sorry I misled you. I hope the UCCB is listening.

a) Stepping in with any sort of aid whatsoever is only likely to be rebuffed by leaders and cause all kinds of trouble. Frankly you can’t support them outside the convent anymore than you can just waltz into the convent unannounced, as someone earlier suggested. You can’t do that. It’s their own home and it’s a convent, for pete’s sakes.
b) I know this is going to sound a little cruel, but these are full-grown women we’re talking about here. Yes, some of them are in a tight spot, but they chose the congregations they’re in, just like countless married women chose the marriages they’re in. They have to deal with this like adult human beings.
c) You don’t want to throw a wrench into what the Vatican’s doing here. I"m sure a lot of conversations have gone on and they know what they want to do. They know better than us how to sort out the situation. Naively stepping in is likely to be exploited or at least, mess up the situation for another generation.

Just let it go. I know you want to do something, but now is not the time, and this is not the thing to do.

 

[iloveangels]

The interesting part is that the poor author gets confused within his own narrative of good guy/bad guy. He can’t resist hating his “victims.”

That’s why Catholics shouldn’t get very upset about this in the press. It really has no traction with them or with the public on this level.

Remember only 22% of the country is Catholic. Which means 78% is NOT. And that 78% doesn’t understand nuns and has very, very little experience with nuns. They don’t “get” the concept and have no idea why a woman might not want to marry, have money, etc. They’ll move on really quick as soon as it’s not headlines. This absolutely does NOT have the staying power of the fiasco in Boston etc.

 

[iloveangels]

Hello -

If a sister/nun disagrees with the theology of her congregation/order, why not leave that group and transfer to one that is compatible with the faith (such as those congregations/orders who belong to the alternative leadership conference) ?

I’m not reading/seeing anywhere that those women who are in congregations/orders that belong to the LCWR are forced to remain in their congregation/order.

Thanks,
Pnkn

You haven’t read the whole thread. This is yet another repeat of questions and explanations we did earlier.

Religious cannot really just hop off one congregation and join another. It doesn’t work like that. They’re not interchangeable like that. There are legal differences; there are formation differences; there are many practical differences. There are heavy-duty social and financial considerations. If and when they do change, it’s a very lengthy and involved legal process.

If you go back and read the thread, there’s a lot of interesting information about all this already in this thread.

 

[iloveangels]

Hello -

I don’t believe for a moment that a “conservative” order would refuse to take a transfer nun/sister on account of her age when the sole reason for the transfer was to continue a devotion to the faith as opposed to living in community with those who stray from the faith.

Do you have specific information from orders outside the LCWR saying that they refuse to accept women who are older and who are transferring for reasons of fidelity to the faith ?

Pnkn

Why should a religious order do this, other than you think re-homing old people is kind in a general sort of way? This is not how this works. And before you suggest such a thing, you need to know a lot more about how religious life works.

 

[iloveangels]

I think the Benedictines take a vow of “stability” (to remain in the monastery where they entered). Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

You are correct. This is part of their charism, or way of life. Included is the vow that you will obey whoever is in charge of the monastery, and that you will get along with anyone who enters after you. They promised this of their own free will when they came into the monastery.

This is one of the reasons that laypeople can’t just waltz in there and set about trying to “fix” things with their do-good impulses. It’s a different world. The Vatican has to deal with it, not us.

Laypeople need to tend to their own vows, which in most cases are marriage vows and family commitments. This is your world. And a lot of laypeople aren’t doing so hot either, I might add.

 

[Alan55]

Hello -

I don’t believe for a moment that a “conservative” order would refuse to take a transfer nun/sister on account of her age when the sole reason for the transfer was to continue a devotion to the faith as opposed to living in community with those who stray from the faith.

Do you have specific information from orders outside the LCWR saying that they refuse to accept women who are older and who are transferring for reasons of fidelity to the faith ?

Pnkn

Consider that the conservative order would be assuming the financial burden of an older sister whose health care and other costs are substantial. Even assuming that such transfers are sisters who are psychologically stable and able to get along with others, I think that there is good reason to suspect that many congregations would refuse such a transfer.

 

[iloveangels]

Consider that the conservative order would be assuming the financial burden of an older sister whose health care and other costs are substantial. Even assuming that such transfers are sisters who are psychologically stable and able to get along with others, I think that there is good reason to suspect that many congregations would refuse such a transfer.

And indeed, such a sister would probably have to leave her own community and come into the new community by means of a formation process, unless she was transferring merely from one house of her own congregation to another house of the same congregation–the one she’s already vowed to.

In addition, most congregations, institutes and associations have age limits on entry, and I’m rather certain that they wouldn’t want to abrogate those for a lot of people just trying to escape other congregations. That’s not the point of formation or entry into a congregation, institute or association.

Even if an exception was made to the lengthy formation purpose, the new congregation would be unlikely to do this for more than a very few people, since again: This is not the point of formation or entry into a congregation, institute or association.

This is NOT like switching brands, getting under umbrellas, getting a new roommate or even just finding a new place to live. Not at all.

Laypeople have the freedom to move from place to place when jobs, neighborhoods and so on don’t work out, and they decide these things for themselves. Religious don’t. When people make vows and become vowed religious, these things are handled in groups and this is one of the consequences of making religious vows.

 

[iloveangels]

And indeed, such a sister would probably have to leave her own community and come into the new community by means of a formation process, unless she was transferring merely from one house of her own congregation to another house of the same congregation–the one she’s already vowed to.

In addition, most congregations, institutes and associations have age limits on entry, and I’m rather certain that they wouldn’t want to abrogate those for a lot of people just trying to escape other congregations. That’s not the point of formation or entry into a congregation, institute or association.

Even if an exception was made to the lengthy formation purpose, the new congregation would be unlikely to do this for more than a very few people, since again: This is not the point of formation or entry into a congregation, institute or association.

This is NOT like switching brands, getting under umbrellas, getting a new roommate or even just finding a new place to live. Not at all.

Laypeople have the freedom to move from place to place when jobs, neighborhoods and so on don’t work out, and they decide these things for themselves. Religious don’t. When people make vows and become vowed religious, these things are handled in groups and this is one of the consequences of making religious vows.

Typo: 3rd paragraph

Even if an exception was made to the lengthy formation process, the new congregation would be unlikely to do this for more than a very few people, since again: This is not the purpose, or even the point, of formation or entry into a congregation, institute or association.

Laypeople have trouble understanding why sisters can’t just “up and move” like they can (and would!), or why they can’t just barge right in and help them “up and move.” But sisters are not laypeople. They can’t. If they run away like that and basically go AWOL, they leave religious life. If they seek to end the commitment to one congregation, and enter another one, there has to be a point to the process other than sheer escape. They’d be going from something TO something, and that’s often just not possible.

 

[KSU]

iloveangels, thanks very much for your replies to my proposal that:

First, “our bishops be asked to LOUDLY mandate for this intention [Bishop Sartain’s success in dealing with the LCWR], in addition to the prayer to Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal, the return of the Prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel after every Mass. These two powerful prayers from American Catholics after Mass will without fail help to loosen Satan’s grip on our Religious”, and

Second, “our bishops should order that (a) at least half of the funds collected annually by the Campaign for Human Development, and (b) funds collected by a new, semi-annual collection for housing and medical care of retired nuns/Sisters be used to assure the aforesaid women that they will be cared for should they choose to leave their failed congregations, orders, etc.”

While you advise me to drop the matter because of this that and the other obstacles, that is exactly the type of expertise I wanted to elicit from you, but every obstacle you listed could be quashed by the Vatican and/or Bishop Sartain. I agree with you that the Vatican knows what it wants to do (at least it has some broad outline), but you could not be more wrong when you say that money and prayer from supporting Americans, for the purpose of facilitating what the Vatican wants to do, would be like throwing a wrench into its plans. Hogwash!

And when you say,“Stepping in with any sort of aid whatsoever is only likely to be rebuffed by leaders and cause all kinds of trouble”, I have to wonder if you understand anything I say. Why on earth would I want to give the funds to the leaders? They are the problem! Under what I propose, the leaders of the LCWR and of the supporting congregations/orders wouldn’t get to even sniff the funds.

Anyway, thanks again for your expertise in pointing out the obstacles in rescuing the long-suffering women who want to be rescued. I’m more convinced than ever that the obstacles, of which I knew little and so needed your help, amount to nothing that the Vatican can’t handle with our money and prayers. As for those who don’t want rescuing, I’m with you: “I know this is going to sound a little cruel, but these are full-grown women we’re talking about here. Yes, some of them are in a tight spot, but they chose the congregations they’re in, just like countless married women chose the marriages they’re in. They have to deal with this like adult human beings.”

So be it, but we can not abandon the captives who want to escape, be they the old and infirm or the younger ones who still have fire for Christ in their hearts, legs and arms with which they want to work for His glory. Shame on us for letting it come to this, beginning in the early 70ties. One of the Sisters I thought the world of and visited some ten years after graduating her High School, told me in hushed tones about the rot that was beginning to take hold. Mercifully (although it didn’t seem so at the time), God took her home a short time thereafter. A broken heart isn’t conducive to one’s health.

 

[iloveangels]

iloveangels, thanks very much for your replies to my proposal that
…clip…

So be it, but we can not abandon the captives who want to escape, be they the old and infirm or the younger ones who still have fire for Christ in their hearts, legs and arms with which they want to work for His glory. Shame on us for letting it come to this, beginning in the early 70ties. One of the Sisters I thought the world of and visited some ten years after graduating her High School, told me in hushed tones about the rot that was beginning to take hold. Mercifully (although it didn’t seem so at the time), God took her home a short time thereafter. A broken heart isn’t conducive to one’s health.

We can’t save them from themselves KSU, and it’s not our job to do so. The Vatican is working with them to change what has happened, because it’s their proper place to do so.

It’s our job to live our own lay vocations and keep ourselves out of our own particular brand of destructive mayhem. As I said before, laypeople aren’t doing so hot at what they’re called to be and do, either. We need to work on that.

This thread is about sharing information and discussing what we can’t help but have heard. People have opinions and concerns, of course. And some people are in shock because they still think of sisters in the old fashioned idealized way. And then this happens. It’s strange and seems new to some people, yes. It’s a mess.

But we don’t need to go gallumphing in there and interfere with what the Church is doing. They’ve got it covered.

If we want to do something, prayer for the people who have to do the work would definitely be the best suggestion I’ve seen yet.

 

[Pnkn]

You haven’t read the whole thread. This is yet another repeat of questions and explanations we did earlier.

Religious cannot really just hop off one congregation and join another. It doesn’t work like that. They’re not interchangeable like that. There are legal differences; there are formation differences; there are many practical differences. There are heavy-duty social and financial considerations. If and when they do change, it’s a very lengthy and involved legal process.

If you go back and read the thread, there’s a lot of interesting information about all this already in this thread.

Hello -

I have been following the thread from the beginning and have read every post.

I emailed the CMSWR with my question about women transferring from one congregation/order to another for doctrinal/obedience reasons.

I’ll reply again if and when I hear back from them.

Pnkn

 

[iloveangels]

PS: If you send money to Bishop Sartain, he’s probably not going to send it back.
But don’t for one minute believe that this will allow you to direct what he’s doing at all. He has a job to do and at the level he’s working, the laity are not really involved at all right now.

He’s got five years of tough work in front of him and he’s going to have to handle all kinds of technical things that most laypeople don’t know anything whatsoever about. So we’re just going to have to be patient.

BTW, you said something about “how could we ever have let this happen” or something like that. WE didn’t let it happen. The laity doesn’t have anything to say about the constitutions of religious congregations, nor do we have anything to do with their approval or their governments. Nothing at all. WE didn’t let it happen. The sisters did whatever they chose to do, and they are responsible for their own constitutions, governments and approval statuses. This is something that most laypeople don’t really know anything about because it’s not part of OUR vocation to the laity, which is entirely different in many ways.