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iloveangels
Guest
It’ll be interesting to hear what they say, if they get back to you, seeing as how this is now as politicized as anything I’ve seen in a while. It’s a lot more involved than you think, Pnkn.
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K
KSU
Guest
“BTW, you said something about “how could we ever have let this happen” or something like that. WE didn’t let it happen. The laity doesn’t have anything to say about the constitutions of religious congregations, nor do we have anything to do with their approval or their governments. Nothing at all. WE didn’t let it happen. The sisters did whatever they chose to do, and they are responsible for their own constitutions, governments and approval statuses.” iloveangels
My friend, there is nothing in your above quote that is totally true, except that I did say, “Shame on us for letting it come to this, beginning in the early 70ties.”
You, I and millions of other Catholics were shocked and frightened into silence after the post-VCII shenanigans began. The great majority of us stood by and watched it come to this. Those of us that meekly complained were branded intolerant, misogynists and conservative nuts. I’ll bet that you heard about some who were termed mentally unstable and sent to homosexual shrinks. Some were threatened with excommunication by now disgraced leaders, and some of those leaders are still in positions of authority. This may not–I say MAY not-- be the thread for 90% of what I’d like to say as to how it came to this, so I won’t, but I’ll end it with this to support my point:
catholicexchange.com/clericalism/
My friend, there is nothing in your above quote that is totally true, except that I did say, “Shame on us for letting it come to this, beginning in the early 70ties.”
You, I and millions of other Catholics were shocked and frightened into silence after the post-VCII shenanigans began. The great majority of us stood by and watched it come to this. Those of us that meekly complained were branded intolerant, misogynists and conservative nuts. I’ll bet that you heard about some who were termed mentally unstable and sent to homosexual shrinks. Some were threatened with excommunication by now disgraced leaders, and some of those leaders are still in positions of authority. This may not–I say MAY not-- be the thread for 90% of what I’d like to say as to how it came to this, so I won’t, but I’ll end it with this to support my point:
catholicexchange.com/clericalism/
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iloveangels
Guest
Okay, one by one:
- I was paraphrasing what you said, but I was close. You said, “Shame on us for letting it come to this, beginning in the early 70ties.” We’re talking about what happened to the sisters. They did what they did. We didn’t tell them to do it or force them to do it. They did it of their own accord. They have governmental structures in their congregations that we don’t control. They made these choices for themselves. We did not choose these things for them.
- I wasn’t Catholic when Vatican II was going on. I’m a convert. So I didn’t have anything to do with that. I’ve heard about it; I’ve talked to many, many people about it–among them lay, priests, sisters and friars; I’ve read stacks of books about it. But this thread isn’t about the laity and Vatican II. It’s about the LCWR. What happened with the sisters was qualitatively different than what happened to the laity after Vatican II. What’s happening with the two groups is still different.
NB: I can honestly tell you no one has ever hurled the word “clericalism” at me before because I believe that the post-Vatican II period will be remembered for its intense over-the-top clericalism, and I generally don’t participate in this. The Church has been so sterilized of things to do that many well-meaning people believe that the only thing there is to do is the priest’s job, regardless of the fact he’s supposed to do it himself. Thus we have ministers of this, and ministers of that, and ministers of whatever. We sometimes even make things up to be ministers of. And then everyone goes home to do whatever they were going to do anyway and be lonely. Go figure.
There are plenty of things to do in the Church, and they don’t usually consist of doing someone else’s job for them when it’s their job and not yours.
K
KSU
Guest
iloveangels, since you won’t focus on my core point that God expects us to speak out when we see evil developing because people aren’t doing their jobs, there is no point in debating it further.
BTW, the following was very well said and very true. It also was very clever of you, but nonetheless irrelevant to my point regarding the duty that falls upon the laity when clergy and Religious don’t do the jobs for which they ARE responsible:
“The Church has been so sterilized of things to do that many well-meaning people believe that the only thing there is to do is the priest’s job, regardless of the fact he’s supposed to do it himself. Thus we have ministers of this, and ministers of that, and ministers of whatever. We sometimes even make things up to be ministers of. And then everyone goes home to do whatever they were going to do anyway and be lonely. Go figure.”
Hear, hear! (In case you’re a convert from Anglicanism).
BTW, the following was very well said and very true. It also was very clever of you, but nonetheless irrelevant to my point regarding the duty that falls upon the laity when clergy and Religious don’t do the jobs for which they ARE responsible:
“The Church has been so sterilized of things to do that many well-meaning people believe that the only thing there is to do is the priest’s job, regardless of the fact he’s supposed to do it himself. Thus we have ministers of this, and ministers of that, and ministers of whatever. We sometimes even make things up to be ministers of. And then everyone goes home to do whatever they were going to do anyway and be lonely. Go figure.”
Hear, hear! (In case you’re a convert from Anglicanism).
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iloveangels
Guest
I’ve been a lot of things but I’ve never been an Anglican.iloveangels, since you won’t focus on my core point that God expects us to speak out when we see evil developing because people aren’t doing their jobs, there is no point in debating it further.
BTW, the following was very well said and very true. It also was very clever of you, but nonetheless irrelevant to my point regarding the duty that falls upon the laity when clergy and Religious don’t do the jobs for which they ARE responsible:
“The Church has been so sterilized of things to do that many well-meaning people believe that the only thing there is to do is the priest’s job, regardless of the fact he’s supposed to do it himself. Thus we have ministers of this, and ministers of that, and ministers of whatever. We sometimes even make things up to be ministers of. And then everyone goes home to do whatever they were going to do anyway and be lonely. Go figure.”
Hear, hear! (In case you’re a convert from Anglicanism).
But I understand.For the most part I’ve said what I think about your proposal, so I’m not going to repeat it tonight. Take care and God bless, KSU.
J
jwinch2
Guest
ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/sister-in-crisis-interview-the-transcript
Sister in Crisis Interview: The Transcript
Sister in Crisis Interview: The Transcript
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Pnkn
Guest
I heard back right away and the answer to my question "I am wondering if women who are nuns/sisters in organizations belonging to the LCWR are able to transfer to congregations/orders that are represented in your organization if these women prefer to belong to a congregation/order that is faithful to the Church and the Magisterium ?"is that “yes, it is possible.”.
Pnkn
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KSU
Guest
That is about as informative a link as we are ever likely to see. Thanks, jwinch2.
(Of course, it also got my Son of Thunder juices flowing again at the mere mention of Archbishop Tobin)
J
jwinch2
Guest
No problem.
Now that I have read it in detail, there are three things which really stick out: 1) the initial communication between the Vatican and the LCWR in 2001 informing them of doctrinal issues which needed to be addressed; 2) the statements highlighted as far back as the 1990’s by those within LCWR which talked about “moving beyond Jesus”; and 3) not wanting to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass at their meetings because the all male priesthood was “just too painful” for some of the sisters.
If the leadership within LCWR knew as far back as 2001 that there were serious concerns coming from the CDF about their doctrinal orthodoxy, then the only conclusion that I can come to is that the shock and surprise expressed at the release of the CDF report last week was entirely feigned and manufactured. In addition, IF they have been openly talking about becoming post-Jesus in their focus as far back as is being reported, it causes me to wonder how long that was being said in private before the courage to say it publicly was mustered and, how much worse it has gotten in the 15+ years since. Finally, if the report of not wishing to have the Mass at their gatherings due to sisters being too hurt about not being able to become priests is true, then things have gone WAY off the deep end.
It is obvious to anyone who looks into the situation that things are very bad and have been for a long time, regardless of the public spin which is being put on things by LCWR or the secular popular media. With that in mind, this is going to be a tough road ahead and all involved need our prayers: the women religious affected by this situation, the laity, the bishops who have been tasked with overseeing the process mandated by the CDF, Cardinal Levada and the rest of the CDF, and the Holy Father.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
Amen! We all need to be prraying hard!
I think your assesment is very accurate. I didn’t hear these things during my time of discernment into religious life. But I have been married for 20 years, so if any of the orders I looked at had these discussions, they weren’t telling the candidates. I will also say that based on what is going on with those orders now, I doubt they did have those discussions, or if they did, they didn’t follow through to move “beyond Jesus”.
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jwinch2
Guest
Maybe, maybe not. Its kind of hard to say. You had people in the leadership of LCWR telling people in the various congregations to resist the investigation as well as the Apostolic Visitation and not tell them what was going on. You have specific sisters now talking about taking LCWR into non-canonical status, and you have a keynote speaker at this year’s LCWR conference that is absolutely into “beyond religion” land.
I hope you are correct but what I fear is that the public face and the private face of many do not match up at all and that what we have seen publicly is only the beginning of how bad things have gotten. I hope that I am wrong.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
I am just speaking of the small group of orders that I discerned with. They all have a local presence and while I haven’t kept in constant close contact, I know what they are up to locally and it isn’t enneagrams.
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opus101
Guest
This article is so frustrating to read! It tries to convey a false idea about the CDF’s attempt at reforming/renewing the LCWR. As always, the good works of the sisters are portrayed as something the Church is criticizing, which just isn’t true.
If these writers would only take the time to read the report that came out, they would see that the works of the sisters have been commended, but there are serious omissions in their work, plus theological/doctrinal errors that depart from Catholicism.
In order to operate under the name of the Catholic Church, one ought to BE a Catholic! If one presents oneself as being a Catholic religious sister/nun, then one should actually BE one according to the definition and guidelines of the Church that one professes to be a member of.
Has anyone come across any news from the secular press that has been fair about this issue? If you have, please let me know!
Sr. Chittester said that there is overwhelming support for the LCWR sisters. I have seen a lot of support for the CMSWR. This does not get published anywhere but the Catholic press. WHY ARE WE NOT REPRESENTED FAIRLY IN THE SECULAR PRESS ???
If these writers would only take the time to read the report that came out, they would see that the works of the sisters have been commended, but there are serious omissions in their work, plus theological/doctrinal errors that depart from Catholicism.
In order to operate under the name of the Catholic Church, one ought to BE a Catholic! If one presents oneself as being a Catholic religious sister/nun, then one should actually BE one according to the definition and guidelines of the Church that one professes to be a member of.
Has anyone come across any news from the secular press that has been fair about this issue? If you have, please let me know!
Sr. Chittester said that there is overwhelming support for the LCWR sisters. I have seen a lot of support for the CMSWR. This does not get published anywhere but the Catholic press. WHY ARE WE NOT REPRESENTED FAIRLY IN THE SECULAR PRESS ???
O
opus101
Guest
After reading the comments after the article, I’m really disheartened. It seems those who responded have not been informed about the true nature of the issue. They seem to think that the Vatican is cracking down on women religious in general and not just the LCWR members, and there doesn’t even seem to be any acknowledgement that there is another leadership conference.
People are very busy, and most have no time to do research on the subject. They rely on the press for their information. If anything will the undoing of the Church’s intention here, it will be the press. The LCWR and its groups are very media savvy, and connected to all kinds of activists and lobbying organizations. They know how to present themselves as victims, and how to keep publicized all of their good works (and keep the negative info out of the news)
Pray, pray, pray for the news media. I hope that, through Divine Providence, the truth will shine out somehow, no matter what.
People are very busy, and most have no time to do research on the subject. They rely on the press for their information. If anything will the undoing of the Church’s intention here, it will be the press. The LCWR and its groups are very media savvy, and connected to all kinds of activists and lobbying organizations. They know how to present themselves as victims, and how to keep publicized all of their good works (and keep the negative info out of the news)
Pray, pray, pray for the news media. I hope that, through Divine Providence, the truth will shine out somehow, no matter what.
O
opus101
Guest
Here’s the article! Sorry! nytimes.com/2012/04/29/opinion/sunday/kristof-we-are-all-nuns.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper
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Dale_M
Guest
Newspaper columnists, television commentators and radio talk show hosts specialize in offering up a frothy mixture of opinion and facts which is presented in a way to stir emotions. Accuracy is given lower value than persuasion.
It is well to remember that people who work in those occupations often engage in tub-thumping. It helps to attract an audience, which pays the bills of their employer and that, ultimately, is the reason they have their job.
Kristof, Limbaugh, Olbermann, O’reilly etc aren’t reporters, and we shouldn’t confuse what they do with news articles or programs…
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opus101
Guest
True.
Nevetheless, have you found any news articles/programs that have set forth all of the facts with integrity? I’m not saying that these do not exist, I’m just trying to find them.
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Dale_M
Guest
Yanno… I have been avoiding this topic.
Most secular reporters know little about the Catholic Church and their reporting tends to be shallow and often erroneous. They don’t do so out of malice, but out of ignorance and the need to meet a deadline. When I saw the initial headlines such as “Nuns left stunned by Vatican rebuke,” my heart sank. Here we go again.
So I haven’t been following the news. Or even following this thread, until just now. However, the blog GetReligion.org (which dissects poor reporting on religion) recommended an NPR discussion and a PBS discussion.
Here is a link to the PBS discussion, which includes a transcript as well as the video
pbs.org/newshour/bb/religion/jan-june12/vatican_04-19.html
Here is a link to the NPR discussion, which includes a transcript as well as the audio version
npr.org/2012/04/23/151222359/vatican-reprimand-of-u-s-nuns-divides-faithful
I haven’t read them yet. I am passing them along on the advice of GetReligion.org, which tends to have good judgment on these matters.
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jwinch2
Guest
Unless you are referring only to secular or popular media, there are several articles from Catholic sources which have been posted in this thread discussing the situation fairly.
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opus101
Guest
Thanks, Jason. But I’m referring to secular media( as mentioned in post #457). That’s where most people get their information.
I’m afraid the Church is being completely railroaded in the secular media.
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