Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

[Marauder]

Does this organization represent all nuns in the U.S. Many of my friends and familiy have referred to articles in the New York Times and other places and refer to anectdotal stories about nuns and how they are more like Jesus than the Pope and bishops. I know many nuns who adhere to church teachings.

No they do not, please read the following post by Brother JR and some other posts in the same thread to get a good understanding of the situation.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9246732&postcount=120

As usual the NYT is misrepresenting/misunderstanding the real story.

 

[KSU]

Br. JR, as others already have, I ,too, thank you for your post #120, referred to above by Marauder. For the primary purposes you intended–clearing up misconceptions about numbers of nuns involved and the limited mission of Archbishop Sartain-- you (and iloveangels) have done an admirable job.

But, as Hamlet said, “Ay, there’s the rub!” Faithful Catholics are concerned about such matters only because of the underlying and far more important issue of the elephant in the room: they want to see the beginning of the end to the horrors of the Americanist Heresy:

ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/AMERICAN.TXT

see also

laudemgloriae.blogspot.com/2011/11/americanist-heresy.html

So-called “rights” to abortifacients, contraception, sterilization, abortion, infanticide (“partial birth” abortion), all at public expense; homosexual rights including marriage, and homosexual indoctrination of school children (usually under the guise of “bulling”); ordination of women; paganism; Socialism; sacrilegious liturgies and reception of the Eucharist; dissident clergy and religious; a post-Jesus church; etc., etc. Those are the horrors and actual evils that the Faithful see or read about every day, and which are associated with dissident organizations such LCWR/NETWORK/CTA.

Accordingly, my friend (and I sincerely mean that) I wish you hadn’t concluded your informative post #120 with a subjective conclusion:

" I don’t believe that the LCWR intentionally meant to deceive anyone by claiming that it represents 80% of American sisters. It’s all in how one reads the statistics. We’re not talking about evil people here. Neither the sisters nor the hierarchy have an agenda here, other than to do what they think is right. Which is where they disagree."

That statement --no matter how well intentioned and limited in scope–can be twisted and spun by the dissidents for purposes of their very real and very evil agenda. It will go something like this: “We are just stunned and surprised that the Vatican would attack 80% of American nuns who further the Gospel’s command to bring justice and piece. We have no other agenda than to do what is right.”

 

[Pnkn]

I would agree somewhat with what you and Dale M say had Mrs. Bethell informed the largely non-Catholic audience with even one quarter of the information and refutations provided in the interview with Ann Carey (author of Sisters in Crisis) :
ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/sister-in-crisis-interview-the-transcript Thanks, again to jwinch2.

Note carefully, folks, I am not criticizing Mrs.Bethell or her excellent university. I am saying only that she paled into lukewarmness when compared to the bold, enthusiastic arguments (even though composed of the usual spin and nonsense) of the anti-Catholic feminists. To the uninformed audiance, they ate her lunch and made the LCWR/NETWORK seem like victims of the old Vatican bullies.

LCWR/NETWORK—1

Vatican bullies-----0

But, again, I would expect nothing else from NPR and BPS.

So I’ll ask again, what did you want her to have said ?

 

[LittleSoldier]

Does this organization represent all nuns in the U.S. Many of my friends and familiy have referred to articles in the New York Times and other places and refer to anectdotal stories about nuns and how they are more like Jesus than the Pope and bishops. I know many nuns who adhere to church teachings.

The percentage I read was 80% but I can’t remember where I saw that figure. If it’s true that is a very high percentage.

 

[KSU]

So I’ll ask again, what did you want her to have said ?

Something like a summery of this:

catholicworldreport.com/Item/1299/the_church_and_the_sisters_what_is_really_happening.aspx

 

[LittleSoldier]

No they do not, please read the following post by Brother JR and some other posts in the same thread to get a good understanding of the situation.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9246732&postcount=120

As usual the NYT is misrepresenting/misunderstanding the real story.

Thank you. I didn’t read the 80% figure in this thread. Obviously it’s a case of how one can “prove” anything using statistics. I should have caught that one.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Br. JR, as others already have, I ,too, thank you for your post #120, referred to above by Marauder. For the primary purposes you intended–clearing up misconceptions about numbers of nuns involved and the limited mission of Archbishop Sartain-- you (and iloveangels) have done an admirable job.

But, as Hamlet said, “Ay, there’s the rub!” Faithful Catholics are concerned about such matters only because of the underlying and far more important issue of the elephant in the room: they want to see the beginning of the end to the horrors of the Americanist Heresy:

ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/AMERICAN.TXT

see also

laudemgloriae.blogspot.com/2011/11/americanist-heresy.html

So-called “rights” to abortifacients, contraception, sterilization, abortion, infanticide (“partial birth” abortion), all at public expense; homosexual rights including marriage, and homosexual indoctrination of school children (usually under the guise of “bulling”); ordination of women; paganism; Socialism; sacrilegious liturgies and reception of the Eucharist; dissident clergy and religious; a post-Jesus church; etc., etc. Those are the horrors and actual evils that the Faithful see or read about every day, and which are associated with dissident organizations such LCWR/NETWORK/CTA.

Accordingly, my friend (and I sincerely mean that) I wish you hadn’t concluded your informative post #120 with a subjective conclusion:

" I don’t believe that the LCWR intentionally meant to deceive anyone by claiming that it represents 80% of American sisters. It’s all in how one reads the statistics. We’re not talking about evil people here. Neither the sisters nor the hierarchy have an agenda here, other than to do what they think is right. Which is where they disagree."

That statement --no matter how well intentioned and limited in scope–can be twisted and spun by the dissidents for purposes of their very real and very evil agenda. It will go something like this: “We are just stunned and surprised that the Vatican would attack 80% of American nuns who further the Gospel’s command to bring justice and piece. We have no other agenda than to do what is right.”

Wow. Thank you for telling me what faithful Catholics are concerned about. I did not know that I was not a faithful Catholic. Now I do.

And speaking of subjective conclusions, I would like to point out that your conclusion is subjective and very uncharitable. The other poster stated what he believes; he has the right to post his opinion. I doubt very much that the poster’s statement is going to be “twisted and spun by dissidents.”

Wow. I’m out of this thread as fast as I can go.

 

[Pnkn]

Something like a summery of this:

catholicworldreport.com/Item/1299/the_church_and_the_sisters_what_is_really_happening.aspx

That’s a LONG article. Her answers were time-limited to a few sentences.
You still haven’t provided substitute responses.

I’ll let you have the last word.

Pnkn

 

[LittleSoldier]

That’s a LONG article. Her answers were time-limited to a few sentences.
You still haven’t provided substitute responses.

I’ll let you have the last word.

Pnkn

I’d like to know what “loyal dissent” means. It appears to be an oxymoron (IMHHO).

 

[KSU]

That’s a LONG article. Her answers were time-limited to a few sentences.
You still haven’t provided substitute responses.

I’ll let you have the last word.

Pnkn

Pnkn, she had time for a summary of what she knows about the matter, not just a few sentences, but she is too nice and genteel to win a debate with people who spin and distort for a living. She fell prey to the usual liberal tactic, viz:
Attack with so much disinformation on secondary issues that the opponent spends his/her time in a defensive posture related only to such “throw-away” issues, thus never reaching the core issues.
And, when the opponent’s time for reply is all but gone, go for the kill shot on the key issues, viz:

QUOTE JEANNINE HILL FLETCHER: Let me just say, as a scholar – as a scholar of religion and a theologian, church [sic] teaching does change.

And I think that’s one of the fundamental issues here, especially around the issue of LGBTQ persons and homosexuality. I think that the issue – one of the issues is the church [sic] teaching we have seen in – from the second to the 16th century, church teaching was no salvation outside the church.

At Vatican II, in the 20th century, there’s a very different understanding of the relationship of the Catholic truth and the Catholic faith to the truths and faiths of people of the world. And so to suggest that there are some things that simply will not change, I’m not sure that that’s been the tradition of the Catholic Church.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Big subject with certainly room for more debate. And we are going to have to leave it there today.

I want to thank both of you, Jeannine Fletcher and Donna Bethell. END QUOTE

Result: As far as the ignorant audience (and I mean that in a nice way) is concerned, the LCWR is being picked on by those Right Wing troglodytes at the Vatican. So what else is new?

 

[Alan55]

Thank you. I didn’t read the 80% figure in this thread. Obviously it’s a case of how one can “prove” anything using statistics. I should have caught that one.

The 80% number is on the welcome page of the LCWR website (www.lcwr.org):

“The Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) is an association of the leaders of congregations of Catholic women religious in the United States. The conference has more than 1500 members, who represent more than 80 percent of the 57,000 women religious in the United States.”

 

[LittleSoldier]

The 80% number is on the welcome page of the LCWR website (www.lcwr.org):

“The Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) is an association of the leaders of congregations of Catholic women religious in the United States. The conference has more than 1500 members, who represent more than 80 percent of the 57,000 women religious in the United States.”

Ah. The conference itself is composed of 1,500 members out of the 57,000 women religious in the U.S. That is not close to 80% (and even less than "more than 80%). To get that 80% the phrase “who represent” has to be introduced. So we would have to assume that 80% of the 57,000 women religious in the U.S. are truly represented by the members of the conference - an assumption which has yet to be proved.

The Pope “represents” all Catholics in the world. So if the Pope makes a non-*ex cathedra *statement that is really his opinion, one could say that the opinion is that of 100% of the Catholics in the world.

Playing with numbers and percentages in order to make it appear that something is true when it may or may not be true. That is disingenuous. But I’m relieved to know that the membership is actually so small.

Thank you.

BTW, I can’t get the link to work. Although everything seems to be OK on my end I get a message stating that the webpage cannot be displayed.

The correct link is lcwr.org/?

That is strange.

 

[IsabelG]

Our Diocese has several of these kinds of sisters. One lead many college students astray at the Newman Center. Blech

 

[jwinch2]

dominicanablog.com/2012/05/03/de-veritate/

There has been much attention given to the recently published doctrinal assessment of the Leadership Conference of Women’s Religious (LCWR). The document, produced by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), identifies several problems, including dissent from Church teaching (e.g., concerning the reservation of priestly orders to men), the inviting of speakers who ignore or contradict the teaching of the Church, and the justification, by some speakers, of dissent against the Magisterium as a “prophetic office.”

There are two common responses to this document, both of which focus on authority. Some who oppose the assessment see it as an oppressive action by a male hierarchy, a reactionary effort to deal with the perceived threat of progressive women religious. Some who support it, on the other hand, cheer it on, thinking that the Vatican has finally dropped the hammer on these wayward sisters. Both of these responses are unsatisfactory.

Instead, let us consider the following: “The truth which sets us free is a gift of Jesus Christ.” This statement, from the opening of an earlier CDF document, Donum Veritatis, on “the ecclesial vocation of the theologian,” can provide the foundation for a more fruitful discussion.

Why should we spin our discussion around the axis of “truth” rather than “authority?” The short answer, contained in Donum Veritatis, is that when God freely reveals Himself, He “open the way to intimacy with Himself so that man . . . [can] find there, superabundantly, full truth and authentic freedom.” The truth draws us into unity and communion with each other and God.

Revealed truth is the subject of another important document, Dei Verbum, the Second Vatican Council’s dogmatic constitution on divine revelation. It teaches that the fullness of divine revelation has come in Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh, Who “perfected revelation by fulfilling it through His whole work of making Himself present and manifesting Himself,” and that “He confirmed with divine testimony what revelation proclaimed, that God is with us to free us from the darkness of sin and death, and to raise us up to life eternal.”

The teaching of Dei Verbum is that this revelation, made perfectly in the person of Jesus Christ, is transmitted in its totality in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Together they form “one sacred deposit of the word of God, committed to the Church.” It further teaches that the “living voice of the Gospel resounds in the Church” by the power of the Holy Spirit.

But the Second Vatican Council also adds a third and essential element: the “task of authentically interpreting the word of God . . . has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church.” This living teaching office, the Magisterium, is the servant of revelation. Thus,

“sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God’s most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.”

What does any of this have to do with theology? Essentially, the work of the theologian is to investigate the truth of revelation in a disciplined and rigorous way, expressed so well by the classic formula, fides quaerens intellectum (faith seeking understanding).

What, then, is the relationship of the Magisterium to theology? Often, the temptation is to see the interventions of the Magisterium merely as authority, and a problem arises when its authority seems external and arbitrary. What right does an external authority have to impose itself on a body of knowledge with its own methods and integrity? If this is our frame of mind, then we will see interventions by the Magisterium as power plays driven by self-interest.

But, remembering that the very object of theology’s investigation is revealed truth, we can see its relationship to the Magisterium more deeply. The Magisterium’s role is the safeguarding and transmission of revealed truth. Its relationship to theology, then, is intrinsic: as the living and teaching voice of the Church, it secures the very object of theology’s investigation. It is not an external authority set over against theology, but safeguards the very principles of theology’s authentic working.

From this perspective, we see that the Magisterium and the work of theology have complementary tasks and gifts: they converge on one and the same goal in service to the Church, namely, “preserving the People of God in the truth which sets free and thereby making them ‘a light to the nations.’”

To consider the doctrinal assessment of the LCWR only from the perspective of authority obscures the intelligibility of the ordered plan which God has for His Church. Instead, considered more carefully, the doctrinal assessment emerges as something aimed at truth and communion. Consequently, interpretations which are either triumphalist or dismissive are inadequate. We are all brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ, meant to rejoice with one another forever in the vision of God.

 

[opus101]

Our Diocese has several of these kinds of sisters. One lead many college students astray at the Newman Center. Blech

I’ve experienced that on more than one campus. That just proves why this intervention is necessary - so many souls are led astray because of religious who promote false teachings. They have absolutely no right to do this whatsoever while still calling themselves Catholic (and getting paid by dioceses for Campus Ministry!).

 

[opus101]

dominicanablog.com/2012/05/03/de-veritate/

What a great article! Thanks so much.

 

[jwinch2]

What a great article! Thanks so much.

You are welcome.

Peace,

 

[jwinch2]

A reflection on the situation from a priest I know and trust.

thealternatepath.blogspot.com/2012/05/go-to-primary-source-leadership-council.html

When I studied theology in seminary I remember a number of professors imparting the same advice, “Go to the primary source.” In other words, do not just read another person’s interpretation of a document. Do not just accept what another person says that a document states; rather, go to the document and read it for yourself and then form your own opinion.

This advice, which has held me in good stead since the day I first heard it, has been running through my mind as I peruse the different editorials and interpretations of the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s recently issued, “Doctrinal Assessment of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR)” in the United States. What I hear most people saying that the document is about is not what I find when I read the document for myself. Here are some examples.

From many commentaries one would think that this Assessment came out of the blue and sucker punched the sisters. This is not the case. The document demonstrates that there has been an ongoing dialogue between the LCWR and the Congregation since 2008. There is a paper trail to prove it.

Another common misconception is that the Vatican disregards the social justice work of the religious sisters in the United States Again, this is not the case. Here I share a quote which begins the second chapter of the Assessment, “The Holy See acknowledges with gratitude the great contribution of women Religious to the Church in the United States as seen particularly in the many schools, hospitals, and institutions of support for the poor which have been founded and staffed by Religious over the years.” Throughout the document the Congregation praises the work and witness of religious sisters.

Another misconception running rampant in the editorials that I have come across is that the Vatican is out to punish the sisters. Another quote from the Assessment, “The renewal of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious which is the goal of this doctrinal assessment is in support of this essential charism (i.e. social justice and service to the poor) of Religious which has been so obvious in the life and growth of the Catholic Church in the United States … The overarching concern of the doctrinal Assessment is, therefore, to assist the Leadership Conference of Women Religious in the United States in implementing an ecclesiology of communion founded on faith in Jesus Christ and the Church as the essential foundation for its important service to religious Communities and to all those in consecrated life.”

“Renewal … concern … assist” these do not sound like the words of punishment to me.

There are two ecclesiological considerations that are at play here that are worthy of note I believe.

The first is that the Christian Church (at least in the Catholic Church’s perspective) is not just a social service agency. Many contemporary viewpoints and commentators would like to limit the Church’s role specifically to this and only this. “Yes, the Church has a part to play in the larger society when it feeds the poor and helps the needy but don’t you dare bring your doctrine into the public square. There is no space for that and doctrine really is not all that important anyway.” Well, the Church disagrees and it has been around long enough to see such ideologies come and go and one thing that it has learned in its two thousand year history is that witness divorced from doctrine soon crumbles. The Congregation’s call to the LCWR to reassess its doctrinal foundations is not a punishment but rather a call to healing in order to strengthen the witness of Religious in our society and world.

The second consideration is that the Catholic Church in its ecclesiology has a mechanism for dealing with such issues. This cannot be said of all Christian faith traditions. I am not naive. I know that authority has been misused and heavy-handed at different points throughout Church history yet this is not the sole purview of the Catholic Church. Every government, every religious group and every secular institution also shares in this sin. Yes, authority has been misused throughout history but that does not mean that every exercise of legitimate authority is an injustice. Some might wonder how this exercise of authority furthers the kingdom of God but it can also be wondered how the absence of any authority furthers God’s Kingdom. How often must the Body of Christ be splintered because there seems to be no other way to solve a conflict or discuss a concern? The Catholic Church has a mechanism. It may not always be pretty. It may not always run perfectly. It must continually be held up to and renewed by the light of the Gospel but at least the Catholic Church has one.

This dialogue and process between the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the Leadership Conference of Women Religious did not just come out of the blue and it will not be solved overnight. The dialogue and process will continue. As this occurs, I hope that all of us will take to heart the common sense advice of my professors, “Go to the primary source.” and I also hope that media commentators will exercise their role responsibly and respect what the Church is about (even if they disagree) and reflect on the facts rather than their own biases and opinions.

 

[Alan55]

BTW, I can’t get the link to work. Although everything seems to be OK on my end I get a message stating that the webpage cannot be displayed.

The correct link is lcwr.org/?

That is strange.

Made a mistake on the link, which I typed in. I put in a “www” that shouldn’t be there.

The correct link: lcwr.org/

 

[AnneTeresa]

I just found this thread. I am beginning to understand my catholic upbringing in the 60s and why I had no clue what my faith was about.

Thanks to IloveAngels for posting the IHM story and links. Things are becoming much clearer to me now why the catholic church seems so split today and why there seem to be two types of priests (not to mention sisters).

I can’t tell you how much this has helped me.