Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

[Cyndita]

Cyndita;9261039:

Cyndta, like someone said before, you need to go to the source and quit relying on other peoples (especially secular medias’) understanding of the issue. The particular issue being discussed in this thread, is about doctrinal issues and the Vatican’s response to the LCWR, which is one of the leadership conferences in the US. Not the individual congregations and religious themselves. The Church is concerned that the** leadership conference**

is not supporting Christian ideals (especially in the abortion, homosexual marriage, and other moral issues) and promoting non-Christian and Catholic theology and doctrine. How can they be effectively serving the congregations under their banner if they are not doing this. (If indeed the congregations have varied charisms). Thus with this renewal the leadership conference will be in a better position to help and support its member congregations.

Jilly, I am certainly not relying on the secular press for my information, and I am quite aware of the issue being discussed. As for the leadership conference and some of the individual speech components, how do you know that everyone (including other leaders) present at the conference(s) actually believed in what was being posited by the speaker? As you know, the ‘whole’ is comprised of ‘parts’, and how many ‘parts’ of the women religious ARE promoting anti-abortion, non homosexual relationships and the immorality of euthanasia? And, do you fully understand what ‘charisms’ are? Each religious order (not diocesan) has a particular charism, be it education, nursing, ministry to the poor (as witnessed by the Sisters of Charity), and they all embrace and practice Gospel values - effectively.

 

[Dawnia]

And again, why don’t they clean their own house of rampant homosexuality and pedophila?

Ummm…they are cleaning their own house. All religious and lay are part of the same Catholic household. It is their responsibility to make sure that all parts of their rather ginormous house are in order.:hammering::coolinoff:

And has no one ever heard of multi-tasking? :juggle:It is just plain nuts to think the Church has to have one fire out before it starts to fight another. If that were the case…the whole darn house would have burned down long ago.:doh2:

 

[Cyndita]

Ummm…they are cleaning their own house. All religious and lay are part of the same Catholic household. It is their responsibility to make sure that all parts of their rather ginormous house are in order.:hammering::coolinoff:

And has no one ever heard of multi-tasking? :juggle:It is just plain nuts to think the Church has to have one fire out before it starts to fight another. If that were the case…the whole darn house would have burned down long ago.:doh2:

Haha! So true!

 

[KSU]

KSU;9261374:

I will pray for you, KSU. You seem unwilling or unable to have respectful dialogue with those who may question your positions. May the peace of God be with you.

Thank you, but know that God’s peace already is with me, especially after exposing what the Church defines as evil. And even though you never attempted respectful or any other dialog with me, you are correct-- I am unwilling to dialog with those who, like the leaders of LCWR/NETWORK/CTA and their supporters. They have been “dialoging” with the Vatican for decades, just to gain time, and it worked.
I can’t imagine why, but I am reminded of the authentically Catholic Polish Sisters who in the 50ties told us how fruitless it was to attempt meaningful dialog with Socialists.
My friend, Cyndita, when people with opposite views aren’t even willing to agree upon the meaning of homophobia, pedophilia, VCII, Jesus, peace, justice, the Gospels, Christianity, etc., there is no hope for honest dialog; only deception and agenda.
Anyway, please keep the prayers coming. I pray for you and your ilk at least twice daily.

 

[Cyndita]

Cyndita;9261413:

Thank you, but know that God’s peace already is with me, especially after exposing what the Church defines as evil. And even though you never attempted respectful or any other dialog with me, you are correct-- I am unwilling to dialog with those who, like the leaders of LCWR/NETWORK/CTA and their supporters. They have been “dialoging” with the Vatican for decades, just to gain time, and it worked.
I can’t imagine why, but I am reminded of the authentically Catholic Polish Sisters who in the 50ties told us how fruitless it was to attempt meaningful dialog with Socialists.
My friend, Cyndita, when people with opposite views aren’t even willing to agree upon the meaning of homophobia, pedophilia, VCII, Jesus, peace, justice, the Gospels, Christianity, etc., there is no hope for honest dialog; only deception and agenda.
Anyway, please keep the prayers coming. I pray for you and your ilk at least twice daily.

My ‘ilk’? Oh dear God. KSU, I am unable to reply to you further, as I detect hostility on your part, and I’m just trying to understand ‘why’ this situation is happening - using clarity of thought, and respect for others’ understanding of the Vatican report. And, I also sense you have a real problem when it comes to women, period. That said, it’s a beautiful Saturday afternoon and I’m going to go outside to witness God’s many miracles! PAX.

 

[opus101]

opus101;9259815:

The Vatican needs to witness to the periphery of religious who are living out the Gospel in ways not solely connected with homosexuality, euthanasia or abortion, but in helping the poor, the uneducated, the homeless and unemployed.

Many women’s religious orders manage to do these things without removing themselves from the doctrines of the faith. If you look back further in this thread you will see a few examples I posted.

It’s not necessary to deny Church doctrine or remain completely silent on very important and timely issues in order to serve the poor, uneducated, homeless and unemployed.

What exactly do you think the other sisters do (those in the other conference, and those not affiliated with either)? Their active communities are involved in all of the ministries that you just mentioned…

 

[jilly4ski]

Jilly, I am certainly not relying on the secular press for my information, and I am quite aware of the issue being discussed. As for the leadership conference and some of the individual speech components, how do you know that everyone (including other leaders) present at the conference(s) actually believed in what was being posited by the speaker? As you know, the ‘whole’ is comprised of ‘parts’, and how many ‘parts’ of the women religious ARE promoting anti-abortion, non homosexual relationships and the immorality of euthanasia? And, do you fully understand what ‘charisms’ are? Each religious order (not diocesan) has a particular charism, be it education, nursing, ministry to the poor (as witnessed by the Sisters of Charity), and they all embrace and practice Gospel values - effectively.

? You were the one that brought up the visitation and specific charisms. The action by the CDF is against the LCWR as an organization, not even the individuals within the LCWR. The renewal is to prevent the leadership from inviting people like they have in the past and to truly serve those who they are supposed to be serving, mainly their members. If the other “leaders” did not know that heterodox speakers were being invited to conferences then there is a problem with leadership and they need reform and renewal, which is what the CDF is helping them accomplish.

It is for the vary nature of the whole being comprised of parts is why the LCWR needs reform. How can they be serving their “parts” and the Church if they are so far away from the moral, doctrinal, and theological ideals of the Church and hopefully their members.

Think of it this way. If in a business a manager invited a speaker to a conference who completely repudiated the business’s founding principles (move beyond Jesus) and ignored the business most pressing goals or even promoted the opposite. Would you not expect that manager to get fired and new procedures to be put in place to prevent this from happening again? Would not the corrective action be even more severe if the speaker at the conference came from within the business itself?

 

[IsabelG]

I am absolutely sure that there are good, solid sisters in that conference. I have NO doubt.
Jesus knows who they are, and they need not be offended by the disciplining of the others.

I also understand what was said about how uncomfortable and impractical a habit can be at times. I certainly don’t wish that discomfort on anyone. We don’t live in an age where stitches need to be taken out one by one anymore - Praise the Lord! I am a lay person, and I wear comfortable, modest, inexpensive skirts. Not wearing a “habit” shouldn’t necessarily mean dressing like a man. It just seems like rebellion…Embracing feminine apparel has helped me embrace my feminity and my awesome role as a woman. Reminds me of Theology of the Body…

I won’t lie - the first year I committed to wearing skirts (after many years of putting God on hold) was like DEATH to self. But its been good. It’s like an outward sign of an inward disposition. Sometimes it works the other way around - changing the outside can then affect the inside.

I really don’t want to start another pants/skirts debate, sorry!

 

[JimG]

In 1992 a group of religious orders withdrew from the LCWR because of its continuing dissent. They formed a new group called the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious (CMSWR). The newer group is thriving and the orders within it are orthodox and growing. More information here: micbro.cybercatholics.com/?p=1183

Here is some background information about the situation with the LCWR

Here

and here

and here

 

[KSU]

First, my friend, please don’t use the name of God so casually when speaking with authentic Catholics–our teaching makes us feel uncomfortable when you do that.

Second, you say you sense “hostility” in what I say. You would be far better off if you were able to sense the outright loathing and contempt, let alone hostility, shown by the LCWR/NETWORK/CTA towards Catholic teaching, our bishops and our Church.

Third, you say you’re “just trying to understand ‘why’ this situation [re the Vatican and the LCWR/NETWORK] is happening - using clarity of thought…” Hogwash! After reading the posts on this thread you know very well why it’s happening, and you also know what Cardinal Raymond Burke said earlier this year–he publicly accused the LCWR et al. with “public and obstinate betrayal of religious life by certain religious.” It just goes to show you what I meant when I said dialog is impossible. And if you are just a poor seeker of truth using only “clarity of thought”, I’m a Poor Clare.

Finally, you say you also sense I “have a real problem when it comes to women, period.” For goodness sake, Candia, can’t you people come up with something new? I’m surprised only that it took you so long to play the tired, old misogyny card.

Since you say you will be unable to reply further because of my “hostility and real problem with women”, I am chalking that up as game, set, match for my side. But maybe tired, old accusations rather than dialog will work a little better with Archbishop Spartan, assuming there will be any honest dialog at all: “We will engage in dialogue WHERE POSSIBLE [my caps] and be open to the movement of the Holy Spirit”–LCWR.

Yeah, right! If they truly were open to the Holy Spirit they would exist today only in the form originally promulgated by the Vatican. Instead, the LCWR is asking the deluded for more money and for petitions of support during the coming battle with the Vatican. After all, they whine,
“These sisters have done what so often our hierarchy has failed to do: they have read the signs of the times and given hope to so many who otherwise would have been pushed aside to the margins…Let us be one with them — one in prayers, in spirit, in heart, and in mind. Let us make sure they do not feel alone, in the cold, abandoned. Let us get around them and help them to the best of our abilities.” acatholicwomansplace.blogspot.com/2012/04/standing-soul-to-soul-with-sisters.html#!/2012/04/standing-soul-to-soul-with-sisters.html

I think I’m going to cry.

 

[jwinch2]

In 1992 a group of religious orders withdrew from the LCWR because of its continuing dissent. They formed a new group called the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious (CMSWR). The newer group is thriving and the orders within it are orthodox and growing. More information here: micbro.cybercatholics.com/?p=1183

Here is some background information about the situation with the LCWR

Here

and here

and here

Thanks for those.

Peace,

 

[opus101]

Thank you, Jim G, I thought the last 2 articles were especially good. Now if we can only get the secular press to print the truth.

 

[IsabelG]

Oh then the CMSWR is what my friends are in. I thought we were talking about the same organization. God help the other group.

And to clarify another post. I don’t think skirts fix everything. St. Faustina mentioned nuns in her convent who displeased Jesus, and they all wore habits. I was just thinking that feminine dress would be a step in the right direction.

 

[Cyndita]

First, my friend, please don’t use the name of God so casually when speaking with authentic Catholics–our teaching makes us feel uncomfortable when you do that.

Second, you say you sense “hostility” in what I say. You would be far better off if you were able to sense the outright loathing and contempt, let alone hostility, shown by the LCWR/NETWORK/CTA towards Catholic teaching, our bishops and our Church.

Third, you say you’re “just trying to understand ‘why’ this situation [re the Vatican and the LCWR/NETWORK] is happening - using clarity of thought…” Hogwash! After reading the posts on this thread you know very well why it’s happening, and you also know what Cardinal Raymond Burke said earlier this year–he publicly accused the LCWR et al. with “public and obstinate betrayal of religious life by certain religious.” It just goes to show you what I meant when I said dialog is impossible. And if you are just a poor seeker of truth using only “clarity of thought”, I’m a Poor Clare.

Finally, you say you also sense I “have a real problem when it comes to women, period.” For goodness sake, Candia, can’t you people come up with something new? I’m surprised only that it took you so long to play the tired, old misogyny card.

Since you say you will be unable to reply further because of my “hostility and real problem with women”, I am chalking that up as game, set, match for my side. But maybe tired, old accusations rather than dialog will work a little better with Archbishop Spartan, assuming there will be any honest dialog at all: “We will engage in dialogue WHERE POSSIBLE [my caps] and be open to the movement of the Holy Spirit”–LCWR.

Yeah, right! If they truly were open to the Holy Spirit they would exist today only in the form originally promulgated by the Vatican. Instead, the LCWR is asking the deluded for more money and for petitions of support during the coming battle with the Vatican. After all, they whine,
“These sisters have done what so often our hierarchy has failed to do: they have read the signs of the times and given hope to so many who otherwise would have been pushed aside to the margins…Let us be one with them — one in prayers, in spirit, in heart, and in mind. Let us make sure they do not feel alone, in the cold, abandoned. Let us get around them and help them to the best of our abilities.” acatholicwomansplace.blogspot.com/2012/04/standing-soul-to-soul-with-sisters.html#!/2012/04/standing-soul-to-soul-with-sisters.html

I think I’m going to cry.

Ah, don’t cry. I do appreciate the answers I’m receiving on this post. I realize that I joined this conversation in a defensive manner; however, thanks to the many links provided herein, I am learning more. Believe me, I don’t really know much about the LCWR and/or their heretical ways.

 

[Cyndita]

? You were the one that brought up the visitation and specific charisms. The action by the CDF is against the LCWR as an organization, not even the individuals within the LCWR. The renewal is to prevent the leadership from inviting people like they have in the past and to truly serve those who they are supposed to be serving, mainly their members. If the other “leaders” did not know that heterodox speakers were being invited to conferences then there is a problem with leadership and they need reform and renewal, which is what the CDF is helping them accomplish.

It is for the vary nature of the whole being comprised of parts is why the LCWR needs reform. How can they be serving their “parts” and the Church if they are so far away from the moral, doctrinal, and theological ideals of the Church and hopefully their members.

Think of it this way. If in a business a manager invited a speaker to a conference who completely repudiated the business’s founding principles (move beyond Jesus) and ignored the business most pressing goals or even promoted the opposite. Would you not expect that manager to get fired and new procedures to be put in place to prevent this from happening again? Would not the corrective action be even more severe if the speaker at the conference came from within the business itself?

Thank you, Jilly, for your comprehensive reply. I have attended many conferences of this type, and I really don’t believe that the leaders of the conference would purposefully invite someone to speak who had ‘heretical’ views and, more often than not, no one knows what is going to be said until it’s spoken; speeches are not normally vetted beforehand. That said, let’s pray for common ground and less resentment; cohesion rather than independence, restoration rather than retribution. This is such a sticky topic at present, and I pray for a mutually-agreeable resolution. Thank you again for your reply.

 

[opus101]

KSU, you provided a link that referred to God as “Godde”. Do you have any idea why the writer spells it that way?

OMGsh…this was on that site…acatholicwomansplace.blogspot.com/2012/04/standing-soul-to-soul-with-sisters.html#!/2012/04/standing-soul-to-soul-with-sisters.html

 

[jwinch2]

I have attended many conferences of this type, and I really don’t believe that the leaders of the conference would purposefully invite someone to speak who had ‘heretical’ views and, more often than not, no one knows what is going to be said until it’s spoken; speeches are not normally vetted beforehand.

This is the person giving the keynote address at the LCWR conference this year.

barbaramarxhubbard.com/site/

Do you think that the leadership of LCWR don’t know what she will be talking about? They purposely invited this women to speak. Are her views heretical?

 

[gus]

Even without any issues of faith. Under this leadership group these orders are on the verge of exintinction.
There imcompetance boggles the mind.
The only. real question is why the Vatican waitied so long.

 

[jwinch2]

Even without any issues of faith. Under this leadership group these orders are on the verge of exintinction.

Very good point. Whatever they are doing regarding promoting the life of consecrated religious has been far from successful.

The only. real question is why the Vatican waitied so long.

More than likely because they are trying to handle things the way our blessed Lord does and invite them rather than force them. There has been dialogue for a very long time (decades) where the sisters in question have been invited back to the fold. This has obviously not worked as they had hoped which has required them to use the authority given to them as successors to the Apostles by Christ.

 

[Pnkn]

Our Diocese also has a convent of cloistered Carmelite nuns who are AWESOME. It’s mostly the Dominican Sisters who wear lay clothes around here that are wacky.Too bad the Bishop still puts them in charge of so much.

Around here, the Dominicans (both men and women) who are obedient and full of faith, and the Benedictine women who don’t use male gender pronouns.