Vatican Document Forbidding Homosexuals to Priesthood Ready for Release

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

contemplative:

How best can you explain gross sexual misconduct over the past 3 or 4 decades? How best can you explain why so many young men and boys were sexually abused over and over again by the same priests? How best can you explain why so many knowledgable bishops and priests turned their heads and hearts while innocent people suffered?

And yes,

I wouldn’t call it an ‘attitude’ but rather a legitimate observation. This observation may very well be a huge deterent of men discerning religious vocations.

“Gross sexual misconduct over the past 3 or 4 decades?”

Please define that. The instance of this “Sexual misconduct” was no greater than what happens in society as a whole.

Is it strange to find out that priests are sinful men just as all men are sinful?

Sorry but that does not prove what you say it does. Especially given that this is mostly an American phenomenon.

 

[contemplative]

ByzCath:

Yes the bishops were wrong but I do not think the constant harping on that does any service. They know they did wrong and are moving forward, we must do so as well.

To a certain degree this is true. I know the importance of ammending and moving foward. The problem is that the whole experience in history is still to fresh too let go. There are people still traumatized by the scandal. Believe it or not, there are those who are just becoming aware of what happened. Unfortunately the ‘scandal’ will always be a part of the Catholic history. History is never erased. The topic of this thread is Vatican Document Forbidding Homosexuals to Priesthood Ready for Release

This alone is proof that certain issues remain unresolved. There is no sweeping this under the carpet.

I wish that** I could** sweep it all under the rug and make it go away.

 

[contemplative]

ByzCath:

Try listening to the people in the pews, you will find that this view is out there and expressed. Parents make this sort of comment and do not realize that their children can hear them.

Another issue is the way people treat priests and religious and what they have to say about them. Children can hear a lot of this and this is how they learn. It is no wonder that vocations are down in places. The children are learning all the wrong things. Just look where parents priorities are, thats what children learn.

This would make a SUPER topic for another thread. Why not start one? Because I am a sensitive parent I feel that I would have a great deal to share. I suspect others on the CA forums would too. Many might benefit.

 

[contemplative]

“Gross sexual misconduct over the past 3 or 4 decades?”

Please define that. The instance of this “Sexual misconduct” was no greater than what happens in society as a whole.

Is it strange to find out that priests are sinful men just as all men are sinful?

Sorry but that does not prove what you say it does. Especially given that this is mostly an American phenomenon.

I am the last to disagree with you. It is no coincidence when I was a kid I knew of 3 school age friends who were sexually abused by the hands of their parents and not a single one by the hands of a priest or bishop.

The issue isn’t about the my 3 school age friends but rather the known and proven sexual abuses that did occur at the hands of priests. A system for preventing gross negligence is just now in place and the question is what will a Vatican document forbidding Homosexual priests look like and how does it fit into the plan for preventing sexual abuse of children.

 

[Libero]

Firstly, it is paedophile, I am English!!!

secondly, i would agree with you wen you say that the bishops had no ill intent, and also that harping on about bishops will not solve any problems, but in saying that will going on about homosexuals solve anything? That is my point, will the document acheive anything, I was using ‘the scandal’ as an example, would we really be free of anything bad such as that if homosexuals were to be banned. I do not think so, and i hope that there are more who would agree with me. What does the church really think that it shall acheive by releasing the document in question?

 

[mlchance]

Libero:

Firstly, it is paedophile, I am English!!!

secondly, i would agree with you wen you say that the bishops had no ill intent, and also that harping on about bishops will not solve any problems, but in saying that will going on about homosexuals solve anything? That is my point, will the document acheive anything, I was using ‘the scandal’ as an example, would we really be free of anything bad such as that if homosexuals were to be banned. I do not think so, and ***i ***hope that there are more who would agree with me. What does the church really think that it shall acheive by releasing the document in question?

If you’re going to start your post yelling about people’s spelling, it’d be fitting if your own post were spell checked. Also, your second sentence above verges on incoherent, and there are several grammatical errors throughout the paragraph.



– Mark “Conan the Grammarian” Chance.

P.S. About 4 out of 5 of the instances of clerical sexual abuse in the U.S. involved homosexual clergy preying on adolescent boys. People asks, “What will banning homosexual men from the clergy solve?” Well, about 4 out of 5 of the instances of clerical sexual abuse in the U.S. involved homosexual clergy preying on adolescent boys.

 

[Libero]

I in no way claim to be brilliant at spelling, i was told by byzcath that my spelling of the word paedophile was wrong, I was merely saying that no it was’nt.

 

[Libero]

And in reply toy your latter statement, is this 4 out of 5 figure still accurate today, or just decades ago during the scandal? Also, the scandal itself is based mainly in the US, as you stated, so whilst the document may help the United States, what about the other countries? the church can not only consider America in all of its important decisions. Why cant the important clergy members in the US try to deal with problems like the scandal themselves?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Libero:

I in no way claim to be brilliant at spelling, i was told by byzcath that my spelling of the word paedophile was wrong, I was merely saying that no it was’nt.

I apologize.

Libero:

And in reply toy your latter statement, is this 4 out of 5 figure still accurate today, or just decades ago during the scandal? Also, the scandal itself is based mainly in the US, as you stated, so whilst the document may help the United States, what about the other countries? the church can not only consider America in all of its important decisions. Why cant the important clergy members in the US try to deal with problems like the scandal themselves?

This is so true. It seems that some here in America think that they are the Church instead of realizing that the whole Church covers the World and that in reality when we look at it, there are likely more faithful Catholics outside of the USA than inside.

 

[mlchance]

Libero:

And in reply toy your latter statement, is this 4 out of 5 figure still accurate today, or just decades ago during the scandal?

Decades ago? Hardly. The scandal is ongoing.

Libero:

Also, the scandal itself is based mainly in the US, as you stated, so whilst the document may help the United States, what about the other countries? the church can not only consider America in all of its important decisions. Why cant the important clergy members in the US try to deal with problems like the scandal themselves?

Homosexuality is what it is regardless of nationality. Homosexual men have a much higher rate of sexually predatory behavior. Period. I’m unaware of any study that shows that an ordained homosexual in, say, Germany is any more likely to live a life of chastity and celibacy than an ordained homosexual in the U.S.

That the problem appears to be largely American can be explained as the result of any one of three scenarios:

1. The problem exists in other countries, but hasn’t been exposed.
2. Other countries’ seminaries and bishops didn’t ignore already-existing Church regulations against ordaining homosexuals and, therefore, there aren’t large numbers of homosexual priests in other countries.
3. The proportionate numbers of homosexual priests in the U.S. is the same as in other countries, but only homosexual priests in the U.S. exhibit an alarming degree of criminal sexuality.

Based on all available research about the self-destructive habits of homosexuals worldwide, number 3 is extremely unlikely.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

mlchance:

Decades ago? Hardly. The scandal is ongoing.

Can you please point to any “coverup” or abuse that has occured recently?

I believe that all the abuse and all the moving of priests around occured a long time ago.

 

[oat_soda]

Here the church would be unfairly punishing a person for a psycological issue that he cannot control, but has done his best not to. What’s more the church would also be directly stopping the wish of God.

you nailed it on the head - A HOMOSEXUAL HAS A PSYCOLOGICAL DISORDER!!! this is why you don’t let them be priests, just like they might not let someone with alcholism or anorexia into the priesthood. besides, how can someone with a psycological disorder accurately discern a vocation?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

oat soda:

you nailed it on the head - A HOMOSEXUAL HAS A PSYCOLOGICAL DISORDER!!! this is why you don’t let them be priests, just like they might not let someone with alcholism or anorexia into the priesthood. besides, how can someone with a psycological disorder accurately discern a vocation?

So what about recovering alcholics and people recovering from anorexia?

Are they automatically excluded?

 

[mlchance]

ByzCath:

Can you please point to any “coverup” or abuse that has occured recently?

Yes, I can. Recently, here in Houston, Stuart Alan Murphy was charged with several counts of sexual criminality. German Rojas Moreno, former choir director of another parish here in Houston, is facing similar charges.

True, neither is a member of the clergy, but the abuse did occur within the Church, perpetrated by representatives of the Church.

Fortunately, the Church in the U.S. seems to be finally waking up and taking steps to keep predators out of positions of authority. Enforcing standing Church policy against ordaining homsexuals is one of these steps.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

mlchance:

Yes, I can. Recently, here in Houston, Stuart Alan Murphy was charged with several counts of sexual criminality. German Rojas Moreno, former choir director of another parish here in Houston, is facing similar charges.

True, neither is a member of the clergy, but the abuse did occur within the Church, perpetrated by representatives of the Church.

Fortunately, the Church in the U.S. seems to be finally waking up and taking steps to keep predators out of positions of authority. Enforcing standing Church policy against ordaining homsexuals is one of these steps.

– Mark L. Chance.

Well I do not think of that as part of the Church’s “sex scandal” as up until recently it was called the “priest sex scandal” but now I see why the word priest was dropped.

The first case, the accused confessed to abusing two boys over a 10 year period, so while he might have just been arrested this is not something new also there does not appear to be any evidence that the bishop knew about it and moved him around, so I do not think this is part of the “sex scandal”. Also from the news articles I have read on the 'net, it says that he was an ex-teacher at a catholic school and is a volunteer church choir, it goes on to say that one count incident occured in a class room. Hmm, 10 years, thats not recent.

The second case, the accused is said to have drugged and molested 7 boys, 6 of whom he met at a church were he worked as a volunteer the choir. The abuse was said to have taken place in his home. The abuse took place between 1997 and 2001. Again, not recent.

The only thing recent about these two cases is when the criminal charges were placed. The abuse is not recent and I will say it again, I do not think these two cases fit the “Church sex scandal” label.

 

[Other_Eric]

oat soda:

you nailed it on the head - A HOMOSEXUAL HAS A PSYCOLOGICAL DISORDER!!! this is why you don’t let them be priests, just like they might not let someone with alcholism or anorexia into the priesthood. besides, how can someone with a psycological disorder accurately discern a vocation?

Hi oat soda!

It seems to me you’ve just set an impossible standard for admission to the priesthood. Everyone, without exception, can be diagnosed with some type of psychological disorder. Should those who have depression, attention deficit disorder, anxiety, or even pagophobia be similarly barred from the priesthood? Shouldn’t the impediment be one that presents a constant and ongoing hindrance to fulfilling the vows of chastity and obedience that very priest must take? It certainly has not been made clear to me that same-sex attraction acts in this way unless we mean to imply that the condition necessarily creates a diminished capacity to act in a moral manner.

 

[Other_Eric]

mlchance:

Yes, I can. Recently, here in Houston, Stuart Alan Murphy was charged with several counts of sexual criminality. German Rojas Moreno, former choir director of another parish here in Houston, is facing similar charges.

True, neither is a member of the clergy, but the abuse did occur within the Church, perpetrated by representatives of the Church.

Fortunately, the Church in the U.S. seems to be finally waking up and taking steps to keep predators out of positions of authority. Enforcing standing Church policy against ordaining homsexuals is one of these steps.

– Mark L. Chance.

Hi mlchance!

It seems you’ve developed an entirely new and much more radical solution to the sex scandal. That is, that we do not allow anyone with same-sex attraction any level of authority whatsoever, even if they are single, chaste and otherwise living the teachings of the Church. By including people who are not clergy as examples where the Church needs to take action against its own sex scandal we also need to question the wisdom of allowing any such man with any degree of same-sex sexual to be an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, a religious educator to those of any age, canon lawyer, theologian or indeed an author of any type of book for the faith. The official position of the Church would need to be that though they may be able to feign chastity for a period of time, a person with such a disorder is a ticking time bomb who will invariably succumb to his temptation, and therefore must, at all costs, be avoided and marginalized.

 

[mlchance]

ByzCath:

Hmm, 10 years, thats not recent.

The abuse took place between 1997 and 2001. Again, not recent.

Semantics. “Recent” is an equivocal term. In my mind, four years ago is certainly recent. So is 1997.

Also, the reason Murphy is an ex-teacher in the Catholic schools hereabouts is because he’s currently sitting in prison. He was quite sensibly fired once he was arrested.

And let’s not fool ourselves. Right now there are men in positions of authority affiliated with the Church who abusing others. The problem hasn’t gone away. It’ll never go away. But we can take steps to, as much as possible, mitigate the number and severity of instances.

Banning homosexuals from ordination, which is already Church policy, is a sensible step.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[mlchance]

Other Eric:

It seems you’ve developed an entirely new and much more radical solution to the sex scandal…

It seems as if you assume way too much.

ByzCath asked for current examples of people within the Church abusing children. I provided two from my city. I’m quite certain others could do the same with their cities.

And, interestingly enough, these instances most often involve men preying on male adolescents.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Other_Eric]

mlchance:

It seems as if you assume way too much.

ByzCath asked for current examples of people within the Church abusing children. I provided two from my city. I’m quite certain others could do the same with their cities.

And, interestingly enough, these instances most often involve men preying on male adolescents.

– Mark L. Chance.

Hi mlchance!

Which is exactly why homosexuals have no place in the Church, not just the seminary.