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thomasf
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Peter denied Christ 3 times, yet he still kept his job.
I highly, highly doubt the pope will give up his for doing far less.
I highly, highly doubt the pope will give up his for doing far less.
Vatican 'Horrified' by Criticism from Germany ... Some even think the pope could resign
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vs_trumpet
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More Americans can name more American presidents than can name, proportionally, popes of Rome. I can name past German Chancellors. Germany and the German Chancellor is much more significant than the Holy See and the pope. If you take a look at BBC’s international edition on television or on the web, you’ll see, generally, rare mention of the Holy See or pope and much more frequent mention of the Germany or the German Chancellor. But this is not some kind of contest. Objectively, the German Chancellor has “prestige” and the Catholic Church recognizes that. Let’s consider how the German Chancellor was able to prompt the Vatican into some action whereas the Vatican has never been able to prompt Germany into doing something at the Vatican’s request. Let’s consider how when the German Chancellor requested that the pope speak with her, she got put through. Contrast that with what happened when the predecessor of this pope requested that he speak with the U.S. President:
“During the lead-up to the U.N. conference on population in Cairo in 1994, Pope John Paul II called Flynn to the Vatican on a Saturday morning to personally request a telephone conversation with President Clinton. Flynn relayed the request urgently to the White House that afternoon, and got no response. He called again on Sunday and on Monday, both times with no results. Frustrated, Flynn then got on a plane to Washington on Tuesday. He cooled his heels outside the president’s office that night and most of Wednesday. Finally, he was admitted to the White House’s pre-Cairo war room, where he was told by Assistant Secretary of State Timothy Wirth that “nobody is getting a chance to lobby the president on this one.” Dumbfounded, Flynn explained that the Bishop of Rome is not a lobbyist, and that it would be seen as a profound act of disrespect if the president wouldn’t even get on the phone. After almost a week, Clinton finally agreed to take the pope’s call. The episode was symptomatic of a basic disinterest within the Clinton team about the Vatican . . .”
In the present U.S. Administration, the pope of Rome tried to speak with President Obama, for a while without success, attributed to incredulity that it was truly the pope calling … but if President Obama were keenly interested in the Vatican, one would think that suitable protocols would have been in place to avoid such things.
When searching the bbc website with google, with keywords pope and benedict (to exclude references to churches named after St. Benedict, etc.), you get about 4K hits. When searching likewise with keyword merkel, you get about 11K hits.
The world does not view clerics as men of prestige, canon law notwithstanding. Whereas in old days, priests were addressed in the U.S. as “Father”, today it is common to on cable news see priests addressed without title and by first name. Few, if any, in the news business today addresses bishops as “Your Excellency” and instead if using a title at all address them as “Bishop”. Likewise with “Your Eminence” which is now not used and replaced with “Cardinal” (as a form of address). Yet when it comes to other persons of prestige, their prestige is fully recognized and honored. The widow of a Jordanian King was always addressed as “Your Majesty” when she appeared on cable news recently. So while cardinals may be in the church’s eyes, princes of the church, the glory of prelates is limited to the vestments and garb they don and even the royalty of Jordan is granted greater honor by the media and society.
In my study of Christianity, the purpose of being Christian is not to receive the prestige of the world or to have bragging rights about how honored our clerics might be. Though I am not Christian, I have found the evangelical approach to this something refreshing, the poor example of Rick Warren in saying that he with our President are both “men of consequence”, notwithstanding. In no parable of Jewish or Christian scripture is God compared to a cleric; God is in parable compared to secular Kings. It seems then that secular Kings might, just might have a prestige not shared by any cleric of any throne.
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vs_trumpet
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It’s not a matter of the pope sinning. It’s a matter of what is best for the papacy and for the church. In the past a very holy man was pope and yet still resigned once he realized he was not suited to the task. The Vatican has admitted that poor management is an issue. Maybe the pope is not a bad man; maybe he is a very good man … either way, if the pope is not suited to the task, he deserves our prayers and our support. If he should resign, no one should criticize him for resigning.
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eelpis
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Vade retro Satanas.
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RosalieM
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BRZ
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Wow, the garbage that is coming from your typed words is utterly nonsense vs trumpet. You talk about this world as if this world actually matters. You think you are saying something intelligent but you have little understanding of what you are actually talking about. Do you think a Catholic really cares who other people might hold in esteem over our beloved Pope? Do you honestly believe that we care how many google hits merkel gets over the Pope? There is nothing more important in this life or the next then salvation and I assure you that salvation will not come by following the leadership of any world leader.
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peregrinus_WA
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Going on a tour of Germany this summer was one of my vacation possibilities. Strike that from my list. Also strike any Riesling made there and VW from my car possibility list (BMW and Mercedes were never on the list). Germany will not get any of my money.
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FK04US
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1 Billion Catholics … how many Germans? Not even 100 million, right? So, who has more relevance in the world? BBC is a European source, not worldwide. Ask people in The Americas, Africa, and even Asia or Europe (Poland, Portugal, Spain) … anyway, just open your mind, and do not dare to compare the leader of the Catholic Church with a local leader.
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Snerticus
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pnewton
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Merkel is following the lead of her predecessors: religious persecution and trying to exert control over other sovreignties.
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Neil_Anthony
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I think that leaders of Germany have a continuing obligation to apologize for the actions of Germany in the 1930’s and 1940’s. Part of her obligation to apologize includes the obligation to oppose ideas that would deny this part of German history. That is why she had to speak out about this issue. It’s part of her job.
The first step in apologizing is to acknowledge that something wrong was done. And if she doesn’t speak up when the wrong is denied, that is tantamount to agreeing with the denials. So she has a serious obligation to speak up when the question is brought into the public arena.
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pnewton
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And who is obliging her to do this? Is it in her job description? Maybe its her DNA. Maybe as a woman she just can’t help but meddling where she does not belong.
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Father_of_9
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The problem with this situation, and many others like it, is that once someone or some group feels that they’ve been offended, no amount of apologies is ever good enough. It’s human nature for all of us to enjoy a position of power or superiority whenever someone has wronged us and attempts to apologize. Today’s society delights in kicking someone when they’re down. Instead, we should look to our Lord and follow His example of forgiving others when they ask for forgiveness.
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Neil_Anthony
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I think it’s part of the job of leading the German people. Obviously its not written in thge job description, but who else has more of a moral obligation to make sure that the world doesn’t forget what Germany did? She is just trying to make sure it can’t be forgotten and repeated.
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pnewton
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I do not see this action as making sure that the world doesn’t forget. The truth of the Holocaust is really not in dispute in any but the darkest corners. In any case, attacking the Holy Father, who does not deny the Holocaust, is absurd.
As a sidenote, Germany’s propensity to make thought and speech illegal is what got them in the situation they were so that the Holocaust became possible. I think Frau Chancellor needs to learn all the lessons of WWII before she starts trying to teach others.
In answer to who will stand up for history if they don’t. How about THE WORLD. You know those that twice before put an end to German arrogance.
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Neil_Anthony
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I didn’t see her words as an attack on the Holy Father. She just asked him to clarify.
And yes, the darkest corners… which now apparently includes groups within the Catholic church
Which is why she asked the Pope to speak out clearly.
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grampben
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Exactly!
Angela Merkel has done nothing wrong, and has committed no double standard.
In Germany, as in Austria, holocaust denial is a serious offence. German anti-semites really could have used this to bring back religious reasons to hate the Jews (it has happened before). She asked for clarification from the Pope.
I think what we have here is a misunderstanding, as well has a hatred for all things European.
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vs_trumpet
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BBC is worldwide. There is a world edition of BBC on their website as well as on television. There’s a whole BBC channel on American cable television. There may or may not be 1 billion Catholics, but the number that go to Mass every week is less than 100 million. Americans like their European counterparts should be able to name past German Chancellors. Probably, many here, can.
I am not sure what to make of your statement about “daring.” That seems a little arrogant.
Geopolitically, the pope is of but trifling significance.
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fix
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Spot on. The left will take any opportunity to find fault with the Church even when no fault exists.
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