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irishpatrick
Guest
That is a disgusting, sick, and utterly unfounded twist on this subject. You should take it back!
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irishpatrick
Guest
Going hand-in-hand with this is the fact that boys will always participate more in things when other boys are involved. When girls get involved, boys disengage. As you said, it is not the fault of the girls; however, it is also not the fault of the boys…it is how boys are made.
Mothers can love their sons with all their heats, but they cannot make them MEN. Only other male role models can turn boys into men. Fact.
J
jdnation
Guest
I have the solution to this problem.
Make it mandatory that any child, boy or girl, who wants to become an altar server, also receive good religious instruction. About the Mass, about the faith, good apologetics, about the vocations proper to men and women.
Also emphasize the male aspects of the preisthood and the Church to be soldier of Christ, harkening back to the day when the Apostles and male priests were heroic, visited and converted heathen lands, became Doctors of the Church, Fought in the Crusades, served in the Inquisition to keep order, stood up to Communism, were martyred and died…
The Church has become feminized and soft. The reason Islam is so appealing to men isn’t any mystery. Islam is however perverted in its appeal to men. But many of its tenants are correct in appealing to men which are God-given and can be rightly used as I highlighted above, for the service to the Church. By teaching those things men can respect the Church and see a place for themselves and women can also respet the sacrifice and role of a priest and a missionary.
All the while the kids just attend mass, do their thing on the altar, fight over who gets to ring the bells during the elevation of the Eucharist, and then go home.
Being at the altar deserves a lot more and altar girls/boys MUST be instructed. Get them sepcial classes etc. on Sundays after Mass or set aside a day for their instruction.
The problem has always been that we do not educate our children properly about the faith or Church history or Apologetics or defending the Bible. If you do this then you’ll find more vocations proper to both men and women religious. You have an opportunity using altar servers to educate both sexes on their place and role.
If you don’t educate them, then just sending them to participate at the Mass will not magically make them more holy.
Don’t bother with Catholic schools to give them any instruction whatsoever. They’re just going to be secularized with some sprinkles of Jesus tossed on for garnishing.
Make it mandatory that any child, boy or girl, who wants to become an altar server, also receive good religious instruction. About the Mass, about the faith, good apologetics, about the vocations proper to men and women.
Also emphasize the male aspects of the preisthood and the Church to be soldier of Christ, harkening back to the day when the Apostles and male priests were heroic, visited and converted heathen lands, became Doctors of the Church, Fought in the Crusades, served in the Inquisition to keep order, stood up to Communism, were martyred and died…
The Church has become feminized and soft. The reason Islam is so appealing to men isn’t any mystery. Islam is however perverted in its appeal to men. But many of its tenants are correct in appealing to men which are God-given and can be rightly used as I highlighted above, for the service to the Church. By teaching those things men can respect the Church and see a place for themselves and women can also respet the sacrifice and role of a priest and a missionary.
All the while the kids just attend mass, do their thing on the altar, fight over who gets to ring the bells during the elevation of the Eucharist, and then go home.
Being at the altar deserves a lot more and altar girls/boys MUST be instructed. Get them sepcial classes etc. on Sundays after Mass or set aside a day for their instruction.
The problem has always been that we do not educate our children properly about the faith or Church history or Apologetics or defending the Bible. If you do this then you’ll find more vocations proper to both men and women religious. You have an opportunity using altar servers to educate both sexes on their place and role.
If you don’t educate them, then just sending them to participate at the Mass will not magically make them more holy.
Don’t bother with Catholic schools to give them any instruction whatsoever. They’re just going to be secularized with some sprinkles of Jesus tossed on for garnishing.
P
pnewton
Guest
This also is not a “is not a formal statement from the Church.”
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pnewton
Guest
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Petergee
Guest
The pope has not encouraged female altar servers. It is even incorrect to say that “Vatican paper comes in praise of altar girls”.
It is correct to say that one article written by one journalist published in the (unofficial) Vatican paper praised altar girls. No doubt there have been and will be other articles in the same paper expressing a contrary opinion.
Yes, if by “inform the liturgy” you mean “do things that have to be done for the priest to celebrate the liturgy in a smooth, peaceful, appropriate and reverent manner.”
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Petergee
Guest
Yes, a 1 percent increase in priest numbers over eight years. But the same article states that in just one year the number of Catholics increased by 1.7 percent. So the number of priests per head of the Catholic population is declining. We still have a lot of work to do to encourage more vocations.
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irishpatrick
Guest
Those are worldwide numbers, not USA numbers where female altar servers are the norm and are heavily used in nearly every parish.
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irishpatrick
Guest
Excellent point…yet those numbers are also worldwide numbers, not just the USA where female altar servers are in nearly every parish.
It is also important to state, as I have before, that there are many reasons for lower vocations, and female altar servers are just one piece of the larger picture.
To be honest, I have no clue why people defend female altar servers, it seems fairly obvious that altar serving does in fact encourge vocations to the Priesthood, so why would any faithful Catholic want females in that role?
In other words, if there is even the slightest chance that female altar servers discourage males from considering vocations, than shouldn’t we lean to the side of caution for the sake of Church?
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pnewton
Guest
Yes, but I was only addressing the unsubstantiated claim made about altar girls destroying vocations. The United States is not the some total of the Catholic Church, as important as we view ourselves. If altar girls in Nigeria do not slow the growing vocations here, yet in America we see vocations declining, then blaming the decline on altar girls simply defies logic and evidence. I would think even the most rudimentary understanding of cause and effect would cause one to question the claim.
Ther are a lot of problems in the Church today, as there have always been. We will never accomplish anything by rhetoric and campaigns against our own pet issues.
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pnewton
Guest
Not in a vacuum of evidence. Statistically, there is a slight chance that global warming is a part of the blame. The Church in this generation has spoken out definitively against women priests, actually defining an all male priesthood as dogmatic for the first time. There is no question of a gender issue for any honest person. For those that want to lie to themselves about the issue, nothing will ever change their mind.
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sojo
Guest
Someone mentioned having Grandma & Grandpa altar servers, which brought to mind a true story of one extremely moving Mass I attended a dozen or so years ago.
Our Pastor was a good man, but he occasionally rushed through a Mass here and there. I knew for a fact that he was actively job searching to get out of our rather isolated and poor parish altogether, but he still did his best for us and seemed to genuinely care for us all.
One hot, rather miserable day (triple digits and no air-conditioning), Father looked pretty unhappy, so we all figured it was going to be one of those “quickie” Masses. And alone - no altar servers available, which is not uncommon in that parish.
The service was just about to start – I think Father may have already greeted us, when out of the congregation, an elderly man rose and hobbled up to the altar with his cane. It was a rather slow and painful procession. Father had a look of shock and then rather wide-eyed look (recognition we all wondered??). The rest of us sort of exchanged glances - not anyone any of us knew, not a member of the parish. We all just waited – so much for the quick service!
Anyhow, without a word, Father slipped back into the celebration, this time being reverently assisted by this old man. We all became entranced and the heat mostly forgotten. Father was no longer rushed but totally caught up in a reverent and respectful celebration.
At the end, before the final prayer, Father thanked an old military comrade from his days as a military chaplain for assisting in the Mass. The old guy asked to speak and hobbled to the microphone. He said that he had served overseas with our Pastor as chaplain and that “the Padre” was known for crawling over mine fields and mortar fire to administer rites to fallen soldiers. He said he was only one of many men who considered our little rural Pastor a BIG hero. His injury had occurred in duty, and our Pastor had crawled through heavy fire to administer rites and pray with him until he could be pulled to safety. He continued to minister to him in the medical tent till he was removed to a larger military hospital.
The man explained he had come to California to visit family in his old age and drove a long distance out of his way to come to our tiny parish to attend Mass with Father. When he saw Father had no one to help at Mass, he said it was a blessing to once again perform the honor. Truly, both Father and the old veteran seemed transfixed through the service.
We all knew Father had been a military Chaplain during the war, but we had no idea he was considered a hero by his men.
I don’t believe the Lord uses altar servers “just” to attract vocations, nor to “just” be little kitchen helpers, nor to give kids something religious and worthy to do. I hope everyone of those kids, male or female, gets everything out of the experience that the Lord has in mind for them. Same for all the old Grandmas and Grandpas, Knights of Columbus, and Parish Secretaries (have seen them step up to the plate on more than one occasion). And I especially pray for small, rural or elderly parishes where Father has to soldier on alone, perhaps to crying babies and old people dozing off in the pews.
Sorry so long - I tend to be a story teller by nature. But this was all true.
God Bless!
Our Pastor was a good man, but he occasionally rushed through a Mass here and there. I knew for a fact that he was actively job searching to get out of our rather isolated and poor parish altogether, but he still did his best for us and seemed to genuinely care for us all.
One hot, rather miserable day (triple digits and no air-conditioning), Father looked pretty unhappy, so we all figured it was going to be one of those “quickie” Masses. And alone - no altar servers available, which is not uncommon in that parish.
The service was just about to start – I think Father may have already greeted us, when out of the congregation, an elderly man rose and hobbled up to the altar with his cane. It was a rather slow and painful procession. Father had a look of shock and then rather wide-eyed look (recognition we all wondered??). The rest of us sort of exchanged glances - not anyone any of us knew, not a member of the parish. We all just waited – so much for the quick service!
Anyhow, without a word, Father slipped back into the celebration, this time being reverently assisted by this old man. We all became entranced and the heat mostly forgotten. Father was no longer rushed but totally caught up in a reverent and respectful celebration.
At the end, before the final prayer, Father thanked an old military comrade from his days as a military chaplain for assisting in the Mass. The old guy asked to speak and hobbled to the microphone. He said that he had served overseas with our Pastor as chaplain and that “the Padre” was known for crawling over mine fields and mortar fire to administer rites to fallen soldiers. He said he was only one of many men who considered our little rural Pastor a BIG hero. His injury had occurred in duty, and our Pastor had crawled through heavy fire to administer rites and pray with him until he could be pulled to safety. He continued to minister to him in the medical tent till he was removed to a larger military hospital.
The man explained he had come to California to visit family in his old age and drove a long distance out of his way to come to our tiny parish to attend Mass with Father. When he saw Father had no one to help at Mass, he said it was a blessing to once again perform the honor. Truly, both Father and the old veteran seemed transfixed through the service.
We all knew Father had been a military Chaplain during the war, but we had no idea he was considered a hero by his men.
I don’t believe the Lord uses altar servers “just” to attract vocations, nor to “just” be little kitchen helpers, nor to give kids something religious and worthy to do. I hope everyone of those kids, male or female, gets everything out of the experience that the Lord has in mind for them. Same for all the old Grandmas and Grandpas, Knights of Columbus, and Parish Secretaries (have seen them step up to the plate on more than one occasion). And I especially pray for small, rural or elderly parishes where Father has to soldier on alone, perhaps to crying babies and old people dozing off in the pews.
Sorry so long - I tend to be a story teller by nature. But this was all true.
God Bless!
C
curlycool89
Guest
Ladies and gentlemen, the correlation fallacy. Again. Unless you have something to prove it then it’s nothing more than conjecture. It’s the same thing I tell people who argue for women’s ordination, you’re argument is all fluff and no substance.
Ah, the precautionary principal. It also applies to global warming, but the majority of the people at this site would call people crazy for suggesting we reduce carbon emissions because it might make a difference.
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
L’Osservatore Romano calls a breakthrough. i wonder a breakthrough for what?
if i recall well, they also praised Harry potter.
they also praised Michael jackson.
Fr Maciel was protected and praised, well, it turned out to be not so good.
if i recall well, they also praised Harry potter.
they also praised Michael jackson.
Fr Maciel was protected and praised, well, it turned out to be not so good.
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irishpatrick
Guest
First, I have posted many messages building a case for male only altar servers.
Second, history of the Church reflects that male only altar servers worked for its entire history until just recently.
Third, the Church makes it very clear that male altar servers are prefered and that parishes should go with that model, and the Church further says male altar serving HAS (not guessing–HAS) encouraged vocations.
Fourth, a large percentage of Priests were altar servers, which gives support to my third point.
So, with all that in mind, a rational person would conclude that there is every reason to believe that male altar servers are often encouraged to consider vocations, and IF the existence of female altar servers dimishes that even by one-percent, should we not choose to have only make altar servers?
Should we not be doing everything we can to make vocations as attractive as possible?
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irishpatrick
Guest
First, I already swept away the false charge of corelation fallacy…please try something new. I have also built a strong case on this thread for male only altar servers, no corelation fallacy there…just a strong case that you just do not like or agree with.
Second, history of the Church reflects that male only altar servers worked for its entire history until just recently.
Third, the Church makes it very clear that male altar servers are prefered and that parishes should go with that model, and the Church further says male altar serving HAS (not guessing–HAS) encouraged vocations.
Fourth, a large percentage of Priests were altar servers, which gives support to my third point.
So, with all that in mind, a rational person would conclude that there is every reason to believe that male altar servers are often encouraged to consider vocations, and IF the existence of female altar servers dimishes that even by one-percent, should we not choose to have only make altar servers?
Should we not be doing everything we can to make vocations as attractive as possible?
BTW, let us get a few points very clear: This is NOT a college debate team. This is real life with** real life problems **that require real life solutions by people who take real life seriously. The world is a mess, we need more Christ, not less; we need more Priests, not less; and we need to do literally everything we can to create an environment that is attractive for young men to consider vocations–that is the real life truth.
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irishpatrick
Guest
My final argument, and than I am done, so please consider this:
If the existence of female altar servers has cost the Catholic Church in the USA even one Priest (in other words, if female altars servers discouraged just one young man from becoming a Priest), then, imo:
THAT PRICE IS TOO HIGH!
Thanks much and God bless.
If the existence of female altar servers has cost the Catholic Church in the USA even one Priest (in other words, if female altars servers discouraged just one young man from becoming a Priest), then, imo:
THAT PRICE IS TOO HIGH!
Thanks much and God bless.
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
My final argument, and than I am done, so please consider this:
If the existence of female altar servers has cost the Catholic Church in the USA even one Priest (in other words, if female altars servers discouraged just one young man from becoming a Priest), then, imo:
THAT PRICE IS TOO HIGH!
Thanks much and God bless.
S
SEBASTIANMARTIN
Guest
I was an alter boy before and after the inclusion of female alter servers. Before the girls came in I was proud to be part of what I saw as a masculine ministry. I looked up to the older boys and the priest and wanted to be like them. I focused on my duties and the Mass. After the girls came in I focused on the girls. I think my experience is the norm.
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pnewton
Guest
I understand what you are saying with the “ifs”, I just do not agree that the ifs do what you say. A man that would reject God’s call to the priesthood because he serves the altar with girls growing up likely was not called to the priesthood. I liken it to rejecting the priesthood because someone does not look good in black. I would bet a couple of dollars that this has never been cited as a reason for rejecting the priesthood even once. That would be so incredibly shallow. That is what my reasoning tells me.
As to the history, if we are to credit male altar servers with all the good in the Church, then they must also bear the blame for the Protestant Reformation and the East/West split. No, I do not agree with your reasoning.
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