Vatican paper comes in praise of altar girls [John Allen]

[SEBASTIANMARTIN]

I understand what you are saying with the “ifs”, I just do not agree that the ifs do what you say. A man that would reject God’s call to the priesthood because he serves the altar with girls growing up likely was not called to the priesthood. I liken it to rejecting the priesthood because someone does not look good in black. I would bet a couple of dollars that this has never been cited as a reason for rejecting the priesthood even once. That would be so incredibly shallow. That is what my reasoning tells me.

As to the history, if we are to credit male altar servers with all the good in the Church, then they must also bear the blame for the Protestant Reformation and the East/West split. No, I do not agree with your reasoning.

I do not think that they so much reject God’s call as not hear it. In order to discern one needs to get rid of a lot of unnecessary noise. One of the reasons that I do not like female altar serving is that it seems to add a lot of mental noise to the male altar server.

 

[canadianguy1143]

Let me reiterate what I have said on this issue. I don’t believe that the decline in vocations is solely because of altar girls, but I can see it as contributing towards it. How much of a contribution, no one can say but there is good reason to believe that it can contribute to it. For every girl that is serving is one less boy and that boy could become a Priest.

Let me quote something I have researched in terms of Church documents.

Pope Benedict XIV stated:

"Pope Gelasius in his 9th Letter (chap. 26) to the Bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: 'Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.' We too have forbidden this practice in the same words ...." (Pope Benedict XIV, Encyclical Al latae Sunt, July 26, 1755, sec. 29).

That’s pretty authoritative!

 

[pnewton]

I do not think that they so much reject God’s call as not hear it.

Perhaps I have a different view of God’s calling and His ability to accomplish His will. No, God does not force His will on anyone, but the idea that God’s voice is dampened by such external elements seems foreign to me.

 

[canadianguy1143]

Perhaps I have a different view of God’s calling and His ability to accomplish His will. No, God does not force His will on anyone, but the idea that God’s voice is dampened by such external elements seems foreign to me.

God’s voice certainly comes clear in the Holy Bible doesn’t it? With the presence of so many erroneous “bibles” floating around, that can certainly dampen his true message from coming through, can’t it?

 

[curlycool89]

First, I already swept away the false charge of corelation fallacy…please try something new. I have also built a strong case on this thread for male only altar servers, no corelation fallacy there…just a strong case that you just do not like or agree with.

You have not provided any scientific or statistical proof showing that it is true, and all you have is anecdotal evidence. The article you provided is completely anecdotal and therefore worthless.

That is the correlation fallacy in action.

So, with all that in mind, a rational person would conclude that there is every reason to believe that male altar servers are often encouraged to consider vocations, and IF the existence of female altar servers dimishes that even by one-percent, should we not choose to have only make altar servers?

Very good with the words. Using terms like “any rational person” implies that your opponents are not rational, thereby diminishing their opinion. Commonly used by the scum of the earth (better known as politicians).

BTW, let us get a few points very clear: This is NOT a college debate team. This is real life with** real life problems **that require real life solutions by people who take real life seriously.

I don’t know why you’d say that, we’re all taking this very seriously. Just because people disagree with you doesn’t mean that we’re all crazy.

 

[SEBASTIANMARTIN]

St. John Vianey (sp?) wrote about St. Francis holding conversations with God like you and I talking (typing) now. St. Vianey said this was possible for every, but they had to quiet their mind because God’s voice starts of as a whisper.

 

[irishpatrick]

You have not provided any scientific or statistical proof showing that it is true, and all you have is anecdotal evidence. The article you provided is completely anecdotal and therefore worthless.

That is the correlation fallacy in action.

Very good with the words. Using terms like “any rational person” implies that your opponents are not rational, thereby diminishing their opinion. Commonly used by the scum of the earth (better known as politicians).

I don’t know why you’d say that, we’re all taking this very seriously. Just because people disagree with you doesn’t mean that we’re all crazy.

Allow me to ask you a direct question, and please provide a simple direct yes or no to my question:

If the existence of female altars servers stops even one young man from becoming a Priest across the entire USA, is that acceptable to you?

[BTW, you comparing me to politcal scum is a bit ironic considering the decision to allow females to altar serve was done as a polically correct move in a modern world that thinks everyone should be exactly the same]

 

[irishpatrick]

Let me reiterate what I have said on this issue. I don’t believe that the decline in vocations is solely because of altar girls, but I can see it as contributing towards it. How much of a contribution, no one can say but there is good reason to believe that it can contribute to it. For every girl that is serving is one less boy and that boy could become a Priest.

Let me quote something I have researched in terms of Church documents.

That’s pretty authoritative!

Great post. You make my point better than I did. If there is even the remotest chance that female altar servers hurt vocations, than why would we want female altar servers?

After all, female altar servers are really just a PC decision.

 

[irishpatrick]

I understand what you are saying with the “ifs”, I just do not agree that the ifs do what you say. A man that would reject God’s call to the priesthood because he serves the altar with girls growing up likely was not called to the priesthood. I liken it to rejecting the priesthood because someone does not look good in black. I would bet a couple of dollars that this has never been cited as a reason for rejecting the priesthood even once. That would be so incredibly shallow. That is what my reasoning tells me.

As to the history, if we are to credit male altar servers with all the good in the Church, then they must also bear the blame for the Protestant Reformation and the East/West split. No, I do not agree with your reasoning.

When did I ever credit altar servers for all the good in the Church? Seriously. I never did. Your comments about the reformation are so far off that are not worth responding to.

A man must hear the call before he can reject the call. It is a known fact that young men prefer to be involved in activities with other young men. The more females tehre are at the altar, the more boys and young men will think of it as a female activity. Let us consider the fact that 60% of the servers addresses in the article were female…those are all server positions that should have been filled by males and it supports my claim that the more females there are, the less boys and young men want to be involved. There is no doubt that men in general think the RCC is already to feminized.

For every altar server position filled by girls or young men, means that a boy or young man is not. I think we want more Priests, and we should do literally everything we can to enourage young men to be involved with altar serving. It makes NO logical sense, imo, to have girls and young women serve because they cannot enter ordained vocations.

I am still at a loss as to why the Church ever went along with this…it seems like a politcally correct decision to me, sort of like a social experiment in some weird way.

 

[irishpatrick]

50,000 altar servers celebrated.

Of those 50,000 a full **30,000 were females **and 20,000 were males. Just sixteen years ago if the same event had been held, there would have been 0 females and 50,000 males as servers.

People here cannot see a problem with the obvious shift towards females servers as shown in that celebration? Really?

An all male clergy, yet there was a 60-40 split of altar servers at that celebration. Is it any wonder that many women clamor for ordination and yell and scream that it is unfair of the Church to not let them become ordained? No clear lines in this mess…no clarity of role and purpose, which simply leads to confused adult Catholics who are not certain where they belong in the Church, so they think they should be able to do anything they want.

 

[irishpatrick]

I have read that 85% of all Priests were altar servers as young men.

85%

On the other hand 0% of all female altar servers will ever be Priests!

0%

So, what is it we are doing here?

 

[Tigg]

We should be well aware by now, how Catholic media distorts true Church teaching and the article is not an official statement by the Church. However, some will not understand the distinction and another point can be scored for feminist theology, tolerance and equality.

I disagree that the primary role of the server is to foster vocations. The purpose of the server is to inform the liturgy- period. The fostering of vocations is a fortunate ancillary effect.

The altar which is the center of our Liturgy can be likened to the Holy of Holies and I believe that our altar servers are undeniably symbolically linked to the ministry of the priesthood by their very location on the altar and their actions which help prepare the offering of the Sacred to the Father.

Despite my personal preference for altar boys I am glad that the pope has taking the step to personally recognize and encourage female altar servers.

It makes an ideological statement which both politicizes and secularizes our Eucharistic worship. Instead of reflecting the sublime harmony of the communion of saints, a foretaste of Heaven itself, the sanctuary comes to symbolize an earthly battlefield in the new cold war against “patriarchy”. Women, by their very presence in the sanctuary, are seen as “on the move”, and as struggling to conquer more territory (more “worship space”, as the new liturgists call it). They are manifested, in fact, as striving to attain something which faithful Catholics must believe can never be granted to them - priestly ordination. At the same time, their presence together with males at the altar, the Holy of Holies, jars against the supernatural ambience of the liturgy by confusing the place of the Bridegroom with that of the Bride.

rtforum.org/lt/lt88.html

There’s not some grand conspiracy by women or something, it’s just that women are volunteering and men aren’t.

It couldn’t possibly be the feminization of the Church, could it? I really think there’s something to the “grand conspiracy” theory because that’s all we seem to hear anymore, especially from women religious who claim the Church is an “oppressive, patriarchal structure” and maintain that the priesthood itself, because it is hierarchical, is the main obstacle to achieving equality for women in the Church.

Another thought - there is a stage in human development when the two genders of pre-teenagers stay away from one another. They simply don’t mix – boys prefer the company of their own sex and shy away from mixing with girls or connecting with anything they perceive as feminine. Girls do as well, however, they seem to be more adaptable to breaking barriers and associating with the opposite sex .

 

[Feanor2]

Mothers can love their sons with all their heats, but they cannot make them MEN. Only other male role models can turn boys into men. Fact.

Merely putting “Fact” on the end of a sentence is hollow language- and certainly doesn’t make the preceding sentence said “Fact”.

 

[irishpatrick]

Merely putting “Fact” on the end of a sentence is hollow language- and certainly doesn’t make the preceding sentence said “Fact”.

I only use the word FACT when I know something to be a fact.

 

[Dale_M]

I only use the word FACT when I know something to be a fact.

hmmm… okay. But since you offered no evidence in support of your claim, Feanor2 isn’t wrong in assuming that you are offering an opinion which you strongly believe in, and simply calling it a fact because your belief about it is so strong.

 

[curlycool89]

If the existence of female altars servers stops even one young man from becoming a Priest across the entire USA, is that acceptable to you?

That would be what we call a run around. You have not shown any connection between female alter servers and vocations, but you run as though you do. The onus is on you to prove that there is a connection, not for us to disprove it. Because you have not proved it, your question is not valid. Your question falls into the class of questions that would include the infamous “When did you stop beating your wife?”.

hmmm… okay. But since you offered no evidence in support of your claim, Feanor2 isn’t wrong in assuming that you are offering an opinion which you strongly believe in, and simply calling it a fact because your belief about it is so strong.

Exactly. Just because you say it’s a fact doesn’t make it a fact, and neither does “your word”. Are you a scientist? An engineer? Do you have a PhD in sociology or in psychology? I’m guessing that’s a “no” on all counts, so your word is only as good as the reference backing it up (better known as Verifiability. Yes, expect people to adhere to very high standards when I debate)

 

[pnewton]

When did I ever credit altar servers for all the good in the Church? Seriously. I never did. Your comments about the reformation are so far off that are not worth responding to.

What you said was:

Second, history of the Church reflects that male only altar servers worked for its entire history until just recently.
I phrased my question in the subjunctive (I said “if’”) so I did not claim you made a statement, but rather expanded on your definition of “worked”. Yes, it works, but that does not mean it works well, or works better than not have all male altar servers, or no altar servers at all. Both a lot of good and a lot of bad have happened in the history of the Church.

A man must hear the call before he can reject the call.

Again, I just do not think God is so powerless as to be constrained by such issues.

For every altar server position filled by girls or young men, means that a boy or young man is not.

That is not the only possibility. The other possibility is that there is an empty position.

I think we want more Priests, and we should do literally everything we can to enourage young men to be involved with altar serving. It makes NO logical sense, imo, to have girls and young women serve because they cannot enter ordained vocations.

I have a question. Do you also believe that no males should be allowed to serve the altar once the are married? Do yo believe that only males who consider vocations (even as a 1 in a million chance) should be allowed to serve the altar?

I am still at a loss as to why the Church ever went along with this…it seems like a politcally correct decision to me, sort of like a social experiment in some weird way.

Good question. If the Church should decide otherwise, or where some bishops to no allow girls to serve the altar, we should all support such a move. I think it is also important to remember that the priesthood is not the only vocation. God can call more than priests.

 

[pnewton]

If the existence of female altars servers stops even one young man from becoming a Priest across the entire USA, is that acceptable to you?

I do not consider this to be a possibility. It is nothing but rhetoric, but I would never compare you to a politician. That is just too far.

 

[canadianguy1143]

That would be what we call a run around. You have not shown any connection between female alter servers and vocations, but you run as though you do.

It would be hard to prove such a connection and I do believe that the connection between the two would be a minor one but as I quoted in post #42:

Pope Benedict XIV stated:

“Pope Gelasius in his 9th Letter (chap. 26) to the Bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: ‘Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.’ We too have forbidden this practice in the same words …” (Pope Benedict XIV, Encyclical Al latae Sunt, July 26, 1755, sec. 29).

This shows that it was at one time condemned.

 

[sojo]

Considering the Church’s little problem with gay and gay-Pedophile priests, I would think one would be more inclined to prefer 15 year old altar boys who wanted to (despite being a bit distracted by) serve with female altar servers, versus the ones who preferred to serve only on all-male altar server team.

If a young man is exhibiting a strong desire for the company of men, and men ONLY, it should be a tiny red flag. Not a slam dunk or anything, but a little thing to keep an eye on.

I believe in vocations ministry, they prefer young men who are examining “if” they can manage their red-blood hetero desires against their calling to God. If they seem overly eager to enter an all-male society, it is considered something to keep an eye on.