Vatican: Pope was 'completely extraneous' to Munich sex abuse decision [CNA]

Adeodatus · Mar 15, 2010

Usbek_de_Perse said:
This is strange. Communists and homosexuals? You are lumping two rather different categories into one. Communists, no matter what you may think of them, have made an intellectual decision that that particular ideology is beneficial for humankind. Communism, as an ideology, is not a moral failing.

Homosexuality is either a disorded inclination, a moral failing, a lifestyle choice, the result of psychological disturbances in childhood, or a genetically predermined disposition (I am not arguing that it is any of these things). It is not an intellectual decision.

In fact, communist countries have often been quite brutal towards homosexuals.

That may be, but in the West the two forces are allied via identity politics. Any true revolution in a place like the USA (whatever the particular means by which it would be accomplished) would require the abolition of the traditional ‘bourgeois’ morality. The Catholic Church is an enemy of the proletarian revolution not only because it discourages armed revolt and encourages traditional political norms; it is also the enemy because its teaching on morality makes Marxian propositions impossible. Likewise for the politicized homosexual who considers himself the member of an exploited or super-exploited class, the Church appears to be the enemy because the morality it teaches prevents the legitimization of the homosexual’s status as a genuine minority population and political unit.

Usbek_de_Perse · Mar 15, 2010

Who is talking about a revolution? I would hope the Catholic Church is at odds with most aspects of Marxism. Certainly, it should be at odds with any attempt to stifle the free exercise of religion, as it should be against persecution of people because of their sexual direction, as it should be against the inevitable persecution of enemies.

But, many Marxian countries make abortion illegal, firmly prosecute prositution, and promote the family. Granted, much of the reason for this is the preservation of the state.

Adeodatus said:
That may be, but in the West the two forces are allied via identity politics. Any true revolution in a place like the USA (whatever the particular means by which it would be accomplished) would require the abolition of the traditional ‘bourgeois’ morality. The Catholic Church is an enemy of the proletarian revolution not only because it discourages armed revolt and encourages traditional political norms; it is also the enemy because its teaching on morality makes Marxian propositions impossible. Likewise for the politicized homosexual who considers himself the member of an exploited or super-exploited class, the Church appears to be the enemy because the morality it teaches prevents the legitimization of the homosexual’s status as a genuine minority population and political unit.

Adeodatus · Mar 15, 2010

Usbek_de_Perse said:
Who is talking about a revolution? I would hope the Catholic Church is at odds with most aspects of Marxism. Certainly, it should be at odds with any attempt to stifle the free exercise of religion, as it should be against persecution of people because of their sexual direction, as it should be against the inevitable persecution of enemies.

But, many Marxian countries make abortion illegal, firmly prosecute prositution, and promote the family. Granted, much of the reason for this is the preservation of the state.

Discussing the particular policies of Marxian countries isn’t really relevant to discussing the political orientation of Marxism and Leftism in the West. In Marxism there is no morality except ultimate revolutionary victory; therefore any evident inconsistencies in policies are only considered to be “revolutionary tactics” which are of course completely contingent on the situation.

For example, a Marxist could ally with some group one day in order to win a victory, and then have the group liquidated the next day once their usefulness is past. That isn’t even specifically Marxist… it’s just Hegelian.

Havard · Mar 15, 2010

tweetymom said:
What the church needs to do is clean house and be honest about what happens. Instead they cover up, move the abusers, etc. That is what fuels the fire. If there wasn’t a fire there would be no need to report anything.

I’m sorry that you feel that only the few bad ones represent the Church as a whole.

dekutrash · Mar 16, 2010

That’s not what she means, of course the few don’t represent the many. What she means is that all this nonsense of defending these handful of molesters needs to stop.

Usbek_de_Perse · Mar 16, 2010

This may be extraneous to the conversation, but I would like to propose to Roman Catholics that there needs to be far more lay participation in the governance of the church. There was a time in the past when there were lay cardinals. It seems that this should be one starting point. Also, perhaps, some lay house in the CCB of each country.

I know that democracy can have its perils (after all, I’m Episcopalian), but frankly, so can an autocratic system, however benign and spiritual the autocrat.

tweetymom · Mar 16, 2010

dekutrash said:
That’s not what she means, of course the few don’t represent the many. What she means is that all this nonsense of defending these handful of molesters needs to stop.

exactly thank you for the post. I know that it doesn’t mean the whole church. But we are supposed to be an example to all. And a few bad apples. Clean house.

tweetymom · Mar 16, 2010

Havard said:
I’m sorry that you feel that only the few bad ones represent the Church as a whole.

I didn’t say that at all. Just that the church needs to clean their house.

Scoobyshme · Mar 16, 2010

I think we need to keep a few things in mind:

A lot of these cases which the media presents were not done all at once or even recently. They just came to light recently. They were done over a long period of time, in some cases decades back, by a very small percentage of priests, etc. But the media presents them in such a manner as to suggest this all happened yesterday. Another lie.
I really do think that the heirarchy was infiltrated some time back by those looking to destroy the Church. They had, in mind, to create such scandals and discredit the Church.
It would not surprise me if the media knows about more scandals, but rather than bring them all to light at once, they’re cleverly feeding them peacemeal, one at a time, to try to make it seem like this stuff is rampant all over, all of the time, and only in the Catholic Church. Percentage-wise, it’s slightly worse in Protestant churches, as a whole. But you’re never going to hear about it in the media like you do the Catholic Church! If the media were really interested in protecting the children, they’d go after the educational system, which is far worse than all religions combined! They shuffle abusive teachers around, etc., just like some bishops did priests. But you don’t hear about it. You need to ask, “Why?”
I think most seminaries (but, unfortunately, not all) are being more careful these days as to whom they allow in. I am seeing many more faithful young priests coming out of the seminaries than in previous decades. The ones from previous decades are unbelievably worldly.
Remember that even among the Apostles, whom Jesus hand-picked, there was a Judas Iscariot who betrayed Him! (1/12th or 8% - much higher than the percentage of these priests being accused.
There is a much smaller percentage of those being accused who are really “pedophiles” by definition. Most are homosexuals who have abused teenage boys. However, the media likes to place them all in the same light. They shouldn’t. And, if the media really was that concerned about abuse of underage children, why not go after the vast majority of cases in public schools and homes?

So, yes, these are terrible things that have happened. Those accused and found guilty should be prosecuted by the law, just like anyone else. But it’s no less terrible than what Judas Iscariot did. And the abuse is no worse than non-Catholic denominations, by percentage. And we aren’t given an accurate picture by the media of these things, in any way. They try to feed us these things in such a manner as to take it all out of proportion, so they can bash the Church, and, therefore, Christ.

tweetymom · Mar 16, 2010

Scoobyshme said:
I think we need to keep a few things in mind:

A lot of these cases which the media presents were not done all at once or even recently. They just came to light recently. They were done over a long period of time, in some cases decades back, by a very small percentage of priests, etc. But the media presents them in such a manner as to suggest this all happened yesterday. Another lie.

I really do think that the heirarchy was infiltrated some time back by those looking to destroy the Church. They had, in mind, to create such scandals and discredit the Church.

It would not surprise me if the media knows about more scandals, but rather than bring them all to light at once, they’re cleverly feeding them peacemeal, one at a time, to try to make it seem like this stuff is rampant all over, all of the time, and only in the Catholic Church. Percentage-wise, it’s slightly worse in Protestant churches, as a whole. But you’re never going to hear about it in the media like you do the Catholic Church! If the media were really interested in protecting the children, they’d go after the educational system, which is far worse than all religions combined! They shuffle abusive teachers around, etc., just like some bishops did priests. But you don’t hear about it. You need to ask, “Why?”

I think most seminaries (but, unfortunately, not all) are being more careful these days as to whom they allow in. I am seeing many more faithful young priests coming out of the seminaries than in previous decades. The ones from previous decades are unbelievably worldly.

Remember that even among the Apostles, whom Jesus hand-picked, there was a Judas Iscariot who betrayed Him! (1/12th or 8% - much higher than the percentage of these priests being accused.

There is a much smaller percentage of those being accused who are really “pedophiles” by definition. Most are homosexuals who have abused teenage boys. However, the media likes to place them all in the same light. They shouldn’t. And, if the media really was that concerned about abuse of underage children, why not go after the vast majority of cases in public schools and homes?

So, yes, these are terrible things that have happened. Those accused and found guilty should be prosecuted by the law, just like anyone else. But it’s no less terrible than what Judas Iscariot did. And the abuse is no worse than non-Catholic denominations, by percentage. And we aren’t given an accurate picture by the media of these things, in any way. They try to feed us these things in such a manner as to take it all out of proportion, so they can bash the Church, and, therefore, Christ.

It is wrong whoever does it. If the CC had of been honest about anytime there wouldn’t be a news story. And there wouldn’t be anything to report. It doen’t matter who does this sick thing or when they did it it is sick sick sick and even worse when it is covered up.

baylee · Mar 16, 2010

dekutrash said:
Is it just me or are more and more Catholics getting PO’d at the **** going on in our faith?

Not just you at all.

tweetymom · Mar 16, 2010

baylee said:
Not just you at all.

Amen to that

Scoobyshme · Mar 16, 2010

tweetymom said:
It is wrong whoever does it. If the CC had of been honest about anytime there wouldn’t be a news story. And there wouldn’t be anything to report. It doen’t matter who does this sick thing or when they did it it is sick sick sick and even worse when it is covered up.

Tweetymom, no one ever said it wasn’t wrong. What’s wrong is the emphasis on the Catholic Church only, when EVERY organization does the SAME thing. Especially schools, who are STILL doing the same thing, covering up and moving abusive teachers around. Yet, all you hear in the national media is the Catholic Church.

I invite you to read the report at the following link:

catholicleague.org/specialreports.php?id=10

Here’s an excerpt:

In New York City alone, at least one child is sexually abused by a school employee every day. One study concluded that more than 60 percent of employees accused of sexual abuse in the New York City schools were transferred to desk jobs at district offices located inside the schools. Most of these teachers are tenured and 40 percent of those transferred are repeat offenders. They call it “passing the garbage” in the schools. One reason why this exists is due to efforts by the United Federation of Teachers to protect teachers at the expense of children.[xxxi] Another is the fact that teachers accused of sexual misconduct cannot be fired under New York State law.

AJTheMan · Mar 16, 2010

I’m really starting to lose respect for the priesthood. I had just assumed that some American issue made the priests in the U.S. want to have sex with children. Now I see that this is a rampant problem in the Catholic priesthood. These same priests are the ones speaking on the moral dilemmas of our generation and yet they cannot even come to the very low moral standard set forth? We’re not asking them to be perfect but raping little kids? That sets a new low.

You never hear of this in the Eastern Orthodox churches. Then again, they allow their priests to marry. (Wink wink)

Scoobyshme · Mar 16, 2010

AJTheMan said:
I’m really starting to lose respect for the priesthood. I had just assumed that something American made the priests in the U.S. want to have sex with children. Now I see that this is a rampant problem in the Catholic priesthood.

You never hear of this in the Eastern Orthodox churches. Then again, they allow their priests to marry. (Wink wink)

AJTheMan, the highest percent of sexual abuse to children is done inside the family. Next, is in the schools, where I would say most teachers are married.

There is absolutely no link between being single and sexual abuse of children.

Read the article at the following link for some perspective:

catholicleague.org/specialreports.php?id=10

AJTheMan · Mar 16, 2010

Scoobyshme said:
AJTheMan, the highest percent of sexual abuse to children is done inside the family. Next, is in the schools, where I would say most teachers are married.

There is absolutely no link between being single and sexual abuse of children.

Read the article at the following link for some perspective:

catholicleague.org/specialreports.php?id=10

Thanks for the data. This does not excuse the fact that there is a rampant, horrible problem amongst Catholic clergy.

dekutrash · Mar 16, 2010

Yet another thing I’m getting sick of hearing from so many people is percentage wise abuse in X is lower whereas abuse in X is higher.

It doesn’t (expletive) matter. Child abuse on any level, any percentage is disgusting, don’t even try to take the high ground citing it’s higher elsewhere.

Disgusting.
*Not directed at anyone, just the people in general.

Inego_de_Loyola · Mar 16, 2010

Alethiaphile said:
Give an example of Communist infiltration.

thecatholicfaith.blogspot.com/2006/03/communist-infiltration-of-catholic.html
Quid Est Veritas?(Catholic Blog):

In his great encyclical ON ATHEISTIC COMMINUSM, Pope Pius XI pointed out that “the most persistent enemies of the Church who from Moscow are directing the struggle against Christian civilization, themselves bear witness … that the Papacy … has called public attention to the perils of Communism more frequently and more effectively than any other public authority on earth.” (par.6) If then the Catholic Church is such an effective opponent of Communism, it is obvious that the annihilation of the opposition would be top priority for the Marxist-Leninists. It must be destroyed, if not by direct destruction, then by infiltration and subversion.

For years there have been rumors and reports of infiltration of the Church by Communists who would enter seminaries and be ordained priests for the purpose of destroying the Church from within. We present here strong and undeniable confirmation of these rumors. The following are quotes and paraphrases from ex-communists themselves who admit that Moscow had ordered, directed and implemented a terrifyingly successful strategy for the infiltration of the Church.
Albert Vassert, a former member of the French Communist Party revealed in 1955 that Moscow had issued a 1936 order that carefully selected members of the Communist youth enter seminaries, and after training, receive ordination as priests. Some of these were to infiltrate religious orders, particularly the Dominicans. (In his essay “Satan at Work”, Deitrich Von Hildebrand reported that the French Dominicans had become so Communistic in their ‘evangelization’ that in 1953, the Order barely escaped dissolution by the order of Pope Pius
XII).

Cont. Here
Christian Order as quoted by Christopher A. Ferrara:

Ex-Communist and celebrated convert Douglas Hyde revealed long ago that in the 1930s the Communist leadership issued a worldwide directive about infiltrating the Catholic Church. While in the early 1950s, Mrs. Bella Dodd was also providing detailed explanations of the Communist subversion of the Church. Speaking as a former high ranking official of the American Communist Party, Mrs. Dodd said: “In the 1930s we put eleven hundred men into the priesthood in order to destroy the Church from within.” The idea was for these men to be ordained and progress to positions of influence and authority as Monsignors and Bishops. A dozen years before Vatican II she stated that: “Right now they are in the highest places in the Church” — where they were working to bring about change in order to weaken the Church’s effectiveness against Communism. She also said that these changes would be so drastic that “you will not recognise the Catholic Church.”

fatimaperspectives.com/cs/perspective235.asp"]Read more here.
AA-1025—The Memoirs of an Anti-Apostle:

Catholics had hoped too much for the return of Protestantism to the fold of the Mother Church. It was time that they should lose their arrogance. Charity made it a duty for them. When charity is at stake - I pretended, laughing up my sleeve - nothing wrong can happen. I prophesied with assurance - so that this would be repeated in the same tones - the suppression of Latin, of priestly vestments, of statues and images, of candles and prie-dieu (so that they could kneel no more).

And I also started a very active campaign for the suppression of the Sign of the Cross. This Sign is practiced only in Roman and Greek Churches. It is time that the latter take notice that they offend other people, who have as many qualities and as much holiness as they have. This Sign, and also genuflections, are all ridiculous customs. I also prophesied (and we were then in 1940) the disappearance of altars, replaced by a completely bare table, and also of all the crucifixes, in order that Christ be considered as a man, not as a God. I insisted that Mass be only a community meal, to which all would be invited, even unbelievers. And I came to the following prophecy: Baptism for the modern man has become ridiculously magical. Whether given by immersion or not, Baptism must be abandoned in favor of an adult religion.

I searched for the means of suppressing the Pope, but I could not find the possibility of doing so. As long as we would not say that the play on words of Christ, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it,” was invented by a zealous Roman (but how can we prove that - it is not enough that this were possible), a Pope would always be in power. I consoled myself by hoping that we would surely succeed in making him look foolish. The important thing was to cry out against him every time that he started something new and even when he revived old customs too hard to be followed.

Vatican: Pope was 'completely extraneous' to Munich sex abuse decision [CNA]

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