Vatican warns traditionalists not to ordain priests

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If this is your example than the SSPX at least has ground to stand on. First, the statements of Vatican II were not infallible, as Vatican I was, for they did not define anything, and they appear to contradict the previous Church teaching on this subject. We are not talking “fuller understanding,” but outright contradiction. The definitions of the Councils of Florence and Trent, which were defined and were infallible, as well other teaching on this subject by Popes such as Bl. Pius IX, do not leave for the kind of leeway in doctrine that Vatican II permitted on this subject, and the SSPX certainly has space for concern here. The definitions at Vatican II appear to be an attempt to vindicate Karl Rahner and the “anonymous christian” thesis, but this is untenable.
This is exactly what the Old Catholics said about Vatican I - that it directly contradicted teachings of earlier councils. They also denied that Vatican I was truly binding, but they did not try to play word games with its teaching authority, they just said its errors prove it was not authoritative.
By extending this accusation to the SSPX, it appears that there is an attempt to paint the SSPX position worse than the Vatican does, since Rome herself has never claimed the SSPX was in doctrinal error, only in danger of schism! These are very different accusations.
I don’t agree that the Church has never said that SSPX is not in doctrinal error. Certainly it is, or it would be in full communion. I do agree that recent Popes have tried to avoid a permanent split by reaching out to SSPX - that was the point of my first post on this thread.
So no, the situation is not the same. A group of bishops reject an infallibly defined dogma and willfuly constitute an act of schism to create a seperate church, versus a priestly fraternity who has concerns regarding certain non-infallible teachings of a council and its aftermath, and in doing do, carried their actions outside the approved norms for those actions, with danger of schism. Sorry, still do not see the similarity.
The situation is identical. The traditionalists perpuate this myth that Vatican II was somehow deficient, or at least had less authority than the previous Ecumenical Councils. Vatican II was a valid Ecumenical Council with the same authority possessed by any of its predecessors. That the Pope said it was aimed at pastoral concerns speaks to its purpose, not its authority. The council is said to have promulgated no new dogma, that does not mean that the council’s interpretation of existing dogma is any less authoritative than that of any other council.
By the way, not all the Old Catholic bishops felt that the defining of papal infallibilty was a break with the past, only that it should not be defined and binding on Catholic consciences.
In any break away group there are differences of opinion, so I’m sure not all did, but the Declaration of Utrecht makes clear that the movement as a whole rejected papal infallibility and that it was the main reason for the split.
 
This is exactly what the Old Catholics said about Vatican I - that it directly contradicted teachings of earlier councils. They also denied that Vatican I was truly binding, but they did not try to play word games with its teaching authority, they just said its errors prove it was not authoritative.
I don’t agree that the Church has never said that SSPX is not in doctrinal error. Certainly it is, or it would be in full communion. I do agree that recent Popes have tried to avoid a permanent split by reaching out to SSPX - that was the point of my first post on this thread.
The situation is identical. The traditionalists perpuate this myth that Vatican II was somehow deficient, or at least had less authority than the previous Ecumenical Councils. Vatican II was a valid Ecumenical Council with the same authority possessed by any of its predecessors. That the Pope said it was aimed at pastoral concerns speaks to its purpose, not its authority. The council is said to have promulgated no new dogma, that does not mean that the council’s interpretation of existing dogma is any less authoritative than that of any other council.
In any break away group there are differences of opinion, so I’m sure not all did, but the Declaration of Utrecht makes clear that the movement as a whole rejected papal infallibility and that it was the main reason for the split.
If you do not agree the Church did not say the SSPX is in error, you must provide evidence for us. Merely saying it out of conjecture tells us nothing, and enters the realm of speculation.
Are you really trying to say that the difference between an infallible definition at one council and a pastoral teaching at another bears no difference? Then by definition everything said at every council would be infallible. Vatican II was not “deficient,” it just did not define anything, which Bl. Pope John XXIII expressly stated at the opening of the council. Rome would not even talk to SSPX if matters had been defined, either they agree or they do not, there would be no room for discussion.
The Old Catholics may have said that Vatican I was not binding (and if this was the case, I do not see why they would leave the Church and not “resist”), but the solemn language of definition in Pastor Aeternus did not leave that kind of wiggle room, and the Old Catholics knew it, which is why they broke away. There immediate doctrinal innovations after that and since show that, while papal infallibilty may have been their impetus, they were certainly dissident in other doctrines as well. The SSPX has not done this, unless you can give example of heresies or innovations they hold to.
 
The real question is: Why are people joining the SSPX instead of the Fraternity of St. Peter?
 
If you do not agree the Church did not say the SSPX is in error, you must provide evidence for us. Merely saying it out of conjecture tells us nothing, and enters the realm of speculation.
Pope Benedict made this very clear in his March 12, 2009 Papal Letter. In that letter the Pope said repeatedly that SSPX is not in full communion because of its doctrinal errors:
The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons.
This will make it clear that the problems now to be addressed are essentially doctrinal in nature and concern primarily the acceptance of the Second Vatican Council and the post-conciliar magisterium of the Popes.
The Church’s teaching authority cannot be frozen in the year 1962 – this must be quite clear to the Society. But some of those who put themselves forward as great defenders of the Council also need to be reminded that Vatican II embraces the entire doctrinal history of the Church. Anyone who wishes to be obedient to the Council has to accept the faith professed over the centuries, and cannot sever the roots from which the tree draws its life.
zenit.org/article-25341?l=english
Are you really trying to say that the difference between an infallible definition at one council and a pastoral teaching at another bears no difference? Then by definition everything said at every council would be infallible. Vatican II was not “deficient,” it just did not define anything, which Bl. Pope John XXIII expressly stated at the opening of the council. Rome would not even talk to SSPX if matters had been defined, either they agree or they do not, there would be no room for discussion.
I am rejecting the baseless claim that there is any difference in teaching authority between the “pastoral” Vatican II and the previous councils. Not every word that drips from a council’s pen is infallible, but the standard for infallibility does not change from council to council. There is absolutely no basis for the claim that Pope John’s comments somehow stripped Vatican II of its teaching authority. Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul both made this perfectly clear. The Dogmatic Constitution of the Church published by Vatican II is THE Dogmatic Constitution of the Church. It is not the musings of a group of theologians, it is the authoritative teaching of the Church. Pope Benedict has said that SSPX will not gain full communion until they recognize that.
The Old Catholics may have said that Vatican I was not binding (and if this was the case, I do not see why they would leave the Church and not “resist”), but the solemn language of definition in Pastor Aeternus did not leave that kind of wiggle room, and the Old Catholics knew it, which is why they broke away. There immediate doctrinal innovations after that and since show that, while papal infallibilty may have been their impetus, they were certainly dissident in other doctrines as well. The SSPX has not done this, unless you can give example of heresies or innovations they hold to.
You misunderstand me, probably because I was not clear. SSPX is trying to have its cake and eat it, too. It is denying that it is in dissent by pretending that Vatican II was not a “real” council. As I understand it, the Old Catholics approached the problem with more intellectual honesty. They determined that the teachings of Vatican I were wrong. Since a valid council doesn’t teach things that are wrong, they decided the Council was not valid. They maintain that they are Catholic - but don’t deny that they are separated from Rome. Its a little tougher for SSPX, I think, because one of their issues is that there is no salvation outside the Church. If they just walk out, without some recognition that they remain somehow part of the Church, their own erroneous doctrine condemns them.

As for the fact that the Old Catholics have developed some practices that vary significantly from those of Roman Catholics - I think that dissenting organizations attract dissenters, so it was natural for them to drift off a bit. They started with at least two heresies. I’m not sure they have grown any new ones, but they have some practices that would be illicit in the Church, to say the least.

But SSPX is not so different. The Old Catholics have been in clear schism for over a hundred years. SSPX is in this twilight sort-of schism state, and has been for only twenty years. Its hard to pin down exactly what SSPX teaches; maybe they don’t have one official set of teachings yet. From what I have seen, they are already drifting fairly far from orthodox on certain issues. Since I know you will ask, I would include EENS and some related issues, as well as what I would call a tendency to meld their faith to match their cultural viewpoint. If the Pope can not bring them back into the fold, if they insist on taking their separate path, in a hundred years they will be as different as the Old Catholics are now, although probably in different ways.
 
“If they just walk out, without some recognition that they remain somehow part of the Church, their own erroneous doctrine condemns them.”
Umm whats the deal here, the SSPX recognizes Pope Benedict as pope and the vicar of Christ and infallibility. Also the SSPX was never fully excommunicated, Vatican II modernized the church and brought more Protestant practices into the Church, it is as simple as that. They disagree with alot of that…and rightly so…
 
I don’t see much difference between the right (SSPX) and the left (women’s ordination groups, etc.) based on how I see the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is the Barque of Peter, a stately ship. It cannot dip to the right or the left. It must always stay up or it will sink.

Full steam ahead.
 
Because the FSSP may not be available in their area, whereas the SSPX is.
So that excuses someone for seeking to be illicitly ordained? Why would someone want to become a priest without faculties?

Its fairly obvious that becoming a priest of the SSPX implicitly shows a rejection of the authority of the Second Vatican Council and the laws of the Church. There is a group approved by the Church that says the Latin Mass and ministers in a more “traditional” manner. To avoid joining the group in full communion with Rome speaks volumes.
 
Well, one could argue that without the SSPX, there would be no FSSP. SSPX was founded in 1970, the FSSP in 1988. It seems that without the SSPX holding fast to the right to celebrate the latin mass, we would not be where we are today.

Disclaimer - I am happy with the NO mass. Born in 1970, it is all I know. Attended exactly one FSSP mass and was lost. However, if my diocese put up with some of the stuff I read about in LA or Minnesota, I would be at the local TLM in an instant. I support the right of those that have the attachment to the TLM to attend where they chose. I am not conversant on the subject, but I thought it was dogmatically proclaimed at one point that no one could be denied the TLM.
 
WELL SPOKEN, they shouldn’t be denied it. Catholics who are critical of Vatican II aren’t just so, out of thin air, the SSPX on its website www.SSPX.org blatantly states why the believe the way they do about Vatican II. I live in Canton OH and we have a Catholic church here by the name of St. Michaels, not only do they of course celebrate the NO mass, and give communion in the hand and all that. But the Congregation hall is mostly clear windows! and it has a huge shopping mall-esque fountain!!!:eek: This church is by far the most protestant looking so called “Catholic Church” I have ever seen in my life. It is an abomination, perhaps Benedict and the gang need to be harder on people who let those “churches” get built. STOP PROTESTANTISING Catholicism folks, it’s not hard. The Church shouldn’t change to be more open and accepting to the world, the world should change for Jesus and his bride, One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
 
STOP PROTESTANTISING Catholicism folks, it’s not hard.
There’s nothing more Protestant than refusing to obey the Pope. Two Popes now have asked the SSPX to stop their ordinations and they refuse to do so. Sounds awfully Protestant to me.
 
I quote directly from the SSPX main website:

"…[this is the principle]conservatives use against the position of accepting everything Catholic which the pope legislates and refusing that which is not entirely Catholic. This position is but common sense.

It is certainly true that, before Vatican II, pious theologians proposed that the pope’s infallibility should extend to his legislative acts. We know, however, that if such a thesis be accepted, that it does not and cannot include all his legislative acts, any more than his infallibility can include all his teaching acts.

It is only indirectly that legislative acts teach dogma. It is certainly reasonable that a legislative act of the pope would in this way participate in the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church. It could not, however, participate in the infallibility of the Extraordinary Magisterium, for there is not in a legislative act a formal definition of a dogma. It can, therefore, only participate in the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium.

The conditions for the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium are that that which is taught, has been taught ubique, semper et ab omnibus; that is, always, everywhere and by all. I refer you to the essays on the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium in Angelus Press’s book, Pope or Church? [available from Angelus Press]

It could easily be considered that the promulgation of Quo Primum does just that, inasmuch as it is a formal codification of a rite of Mass which perfectly expresses the Catholic doctrine taught by the Council of Trent. However, there is no way that new or revolutionary legislation could participate in this infallibility, any more than could the dogmatic decrees of Vatican II participate in this infallibility, for they are not even a part of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church when they teach novelties.

Consequently, it comes down to examining the laws (such as the new Catechism of the Catholic Church) and seeing what is perfectly in conformity to what has always and everywhere been taught by all Catholics. Such laws express the infallibility of the Church, inasmuch as they express Catholic doctrine, even though they do not make a direct definition. Other laws either do not express Catholic doctrine, or express something contrary to it (e.g., ecumenism), which means that for serious reasons of Faith we may and should question and refuse them. [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]

Should a traditional religious sister who is unable to live her religious life in a post-Vatican II community request to be dispensed from her vows?

No. If a religious sees the crisis in the Church, she will only ask to be dispensed from her vows if she is paralyzed by legalism, and by the false notion of obedience that this legalism engenders.

The real solution of a traditional sister in a modernist congregation is not to request a dispensation from her vows. It is precisely the contrary that a traditional sister is obliged before God to do —to live faithful for life the vows that she made before God. It is precisely to keep her vows that she must leave the modernist community. It is precisely because she is determined to keep to her religious vows that she is obliged to adhere to Tradition. Consequently it makes no sense at all for her to abandon those vows, or ask to be released from them. These vows are not an impediment to her sanctification, but the means for it.

It is certainly true that in normal times one does not have the right to leave one’s religious community to join another without dispensation or permission from both superiors. However, the proof that we are not living in normal times is the fact that the rule has changed radically and in its entirety since the religious made profession. Her profession is of a rule that the modernist community no longer keeps. Consequently, she is obliged in virtue of her profession, and the virtue of religion, to leave her modernist community and to establish herself in a traditional community in which the spiritual life is compatible with her vowed constitutions. By not keeping the rule, and not watching that others keep it also, the modernist superiors lose their authority to govern. The religious is no longer bound to them in obedience, and can transfer her obedience to another authority.

A sister who has left a modernist community to join a traditional community is consequently not disobedient at all. She has the true virtue of obedience, which is a part of justice, and directly related to the virtue of religion, by which we submit ourselves to God. She is obedient to her rule, and to the superior that God gives her to live that rule. She is obedient. The decision as to just how bad it must be before a religious is forced to leave her community is not in itself an easy one. A simple moral disorder or laxity is not enough. It must be the despising or abandoning of the traditional rule that the religious professed, and of the religious life altogether. This is an easy decision to make in the vast majority of communities at this time in history. [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]"
www.SSPX.org
There it is laid out for you, a very good explanation and I challenge anyone for a legitimate response to it. Oh yes, ordaining priests that’s so protestant, oh wait, most Catholics receive Holy Communion in their hands, NO!, THAT my friend is Protestant behavior. The Popes said do not ordain because they go against Vatican II there never was any formal excommunication and SSPX has no intentions of a Church Schism like the heretic Martin Luther.
 
There it is laid out for you, a very good explanation and I challenge anyone for a legitimate response to it. Oh yes, ordaining priests that’s so protestant, oh wait, most Catholics receive Holy Communion in their hands, NO!, THAT my friend is Protestant behavior. The Popes said do not ordain because they go against Vatican II there never was any formal excommunication and SSPX has no intentions of a Church Schism like the heretic Martin Luther.
Catholics receive communion in the hand with the approval of the Holy See. The SSPX ordains men against the explicit desire of the Holy See. The SSPX is drifting into schism and the Holy See is trying to prevent it. Unfortunately the SSPX refuses to recongize the teachings of an Ecumenical Council, thus they are indeed Protestants who refuse to submit to the authority of the Church.
As for formal excommunication, they had to be welcomed back into the Church (though without faculties) because it is an automatic excommunication to ordain a bishop without approval of the Holy See.

Either way, the SSPX sounds more and more like the Old Catholics or even Henry VIII.

As previously stated, there exists a “tradionalist” group in full commion with Rome, the Fraternity of St. Peter. The fact that someone choses to be ordained into a group that has no faculties and begin their priesthood as an offically suspended priest shows very clearly they are rejecting the authority of Rome. Sorry, if it walks like a Prot and talks like a Prot, guess what? SSPX is a Prot.
 
Catholics receive communion in the hand with the approval of the Holy See. The SSPX ordains men against the explicit desire of the Holy See. The SSPX is drifting into schism and the Holy See is trying to prevent it. Unfortunately the SSPX refuses to recongize the teachings of an Ecumenical Council, thus they are indeed Protestants who refuse to submit to the authority of the Church.
As for formal excommunication, they had to be welcomed back into the Church (though without faculties) because it is an automatic excommunication to ordain a bishop without approval of the Holy See.

Either way, the SSPX sounds more and more like the Old Catholics or even Henry VIII.

As previously stated, there exists a “tradionalist” group in full commion with Rome, the Fraternity of St. Peter. The fact that someone choses to be ordained into a group that has no faculties and begin their priesthood as an offically suspended priest shows very clearly they are rejecting the authority of Rome. Sorry, if it walks like a Prot and talks like a Prot, guess what? SSPX is a Prot.
Actually, this is not true. Pope John Paul II write an encyclical letter saying that only priests should handle the hosts, and Rome has expressed its displeasure with the US bishops’ conference for continuing the practice. The late Holy Father distributed the Holy Eucharist in the hand when visiting here because largely Catholics here did not know otherwise. This is not the only time the US bishops have disobeyed the Holy Father. Does this make them protestant too? I think we are getting a little liberal with our name applications on this thread. One can only say the SSPX seems like the Old Catholics if one knows nothing about the Old Catholics, or only knows an isolated group. The Old Roman Catholic Church of North America, The Old Catholic Church in America, etc. are all neo-Gallicans and “ultrajectines,” and the lack of similarities just increases from there.
 
Pope Benedict made this very clear in his March 12, 2009 Papal Letter. In that letter the Pope said repeatedly that SSPX is not in full communion because of its doctrinal errors:

zenit.org/article-25341?l=english

I am rejecting the baseless claim that there is any difference in teaching authority between the “pastoral” Vatican II and the previous councils. Not every word that drips from a council’s pen is infallible, but the standard for infallibility does not change from council to council. There is absolutely no basis for the claim that Pope John’s comments somehow stripped Vatican II of its teaching authority. Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul both made this perfectly clear. The Dogmatic Constitution of the Church published by Vatican II is THE Dogmatic Constitution of the Church. It is not the musings of a group of theologians, it is the authoritative teaching of the Church. Pope Benedict has said that SSPX will not gain full communion until they recognize that.

You misunderstand me, probably because I was not clear. SSPX is trying to have its cake and eat it, too. It is denying that it is in dissent by pretending that Vatican II was not a “real” council. As I understand it, the Old Catholics approached the problem with more intellectual honesty. They determined that the teachings of Vatican I were wrong. Since a valid council doesn’t teach things that are wrong, they decided the Council was not valid. They maintain that they are Catholic - but don’t deny that they are separated from Rome. Its a little tougher for SSPX, I think, because one of their issues is that there is no salvation outside the Church. If they just walk out, without some recognition that they remain somehow part of the Church, their own erroneous doctrine condemns them.

As for the fact that the Old Catholics have developed some practices that vary significantly from those of Roman Catholics - I think that dissenting organizations attract dissenters, so it was natural for them to drift off a bit. They started with at least two heresies. I’m not sure they have grown any new ones, but they have some practices that would be illicit in the Church, to say the least.

But SSPX is not so different. The Old Catholics have been in clear schism for over a hundred years. SSPX is in this twilight sort-of schism state, and has been for only twenty years. Its hard to pin down exactly what SSPX teaches; maybe they don’t have one official set of teachings yet. From what I have seen, they are already drifting fairly far from orthodox on certain issues. Since I know you will ask, I would include EENS and some related issues, as well as what I would call a tendency to meld their faith to match their cultural viewpoint. If the Pope can not bring them back into the fold, if they insist on taking their separate path, in a hundred years they will be as different as the Old Catholics are now, although probably in different ways.
 
Actually, this is not true. Pope John Paul II write an encyclical letter saying that only priests should handle the hosts, and Rome has expressed its displeasure with the US bishops’ conference for continuing the practice.
Citation please. If the Vatican didn’t allow for communion in the hand it would simply outlaw the practice. The Vatican might prefer and encourage reception only on the tongue but it does allow for communion in the hand.
The late Holy Father distributed the Holy Eucharist in the hand when visiting here because largely Catholics here did not know otherwise. This is not the only time the US bishops have disobeyed the Holy Father.
Once again, citation please that communion in the hand is banned by the Holy See.

Cardinal Francis Arinze, who heads the Vatican’s worship congregation, responded by saying that arguments could be made for both Communion practices, in the hand and on the tongue, according to information released by the Vatican. Ultimately, he said, it’s up to bishops’ conferences to decide what is best in each country, but he added that Communion in the hand needs better catechesis.
Does this make them protestant too? I think we are getting a little liberal with our name applications on this thread. One can only say the SSPX seems like the Old Catholics if one knows nothing about the Old Catholics, or only knows an isolated group. The Old Roman Catholic Church of North America, The Old Catholic Church in America, etc. are all neo-Gallicans and “ultrajectines,” and the lack of similarities just increases from there.
Refusing to recognize the authority of an ecumenical council is a big deal. Refusing to follow canon law for ordinations is a big deal. Refusing to submit to the authority of the Holy See is a big deal. Those are all things Protest-ants do.

The SSPX can dress itself up in all the twisted and contorted logic it wants, but the fact remains they are not in full communion with Rome. Anyone who seeks ordination by them is participating in widing a rift with Rome and obviously has no desire to maintain the unity of the Church.
 
New England, do rest assured that the proper citations will be provided he couldn’t have countered you more perfectly. Communion in the hand in the US as a whole is something to be looked down upon. Not to mention the fact that a good over half percentage of girls in modernized Churches dress horribly when they approach the body of Christ. This is what Vatican II’s lax and worldy stance is doing to the church. Catholic schools in the U.S. are horrible, I can’t even tell you how many people I have talked to who claim to be raised Catholic and actually think that “Catholics” are different from “Christians”.
 
The SSPX can dress itself up in all the twisted and contorted logic it wants, but the fact remains they are not in full communion with Rome. Anyone who seeks ordination by them is participating in widing a rift with Rome and obviously has no desire to maintain the unity of the Church.
What twisted logic? Nothing I posted from their site is “twisted logic”, I think you should read more carefully.
 
According to an article on the ordinations:
“Was this a provocation by the SSPX against Pope Benedict, whose flag flies above the seminary? Absolutely not, a very self-confident Bishop Fellay responded to journalists who had journeyed to this Swiss Alpine village for the ceremony. “There is a tacit tolerance from Rome,” said the Swiss-born bishop, whose 20-year excommunication was lifted in January along with the three other bishops drummed out of the Church in 1988. “We did not have an explicit order not to do this. I have contacts with Rome, I’m not just making this up out of thin air. Rome knows this is not a provocation on our part.””
blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2009/06/29/guestview-felley-ordains-sspx-priests-hints-timid-opening/
 
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