Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[Bengoshi]

Dear X Baptist
I am a life long Catholic with degrees in and years of study in theology. The dogma has not changed but our understanding of it has. How wonderful and blessed we are to live at a time when our understanding of the human mind and how it works is continually growing and God is giving us greater and greater insight into His creatures and the psychology of belief.

Fifty years ago I believed that no one but Catholics could go to heaven but after study and prayer I understand the concept of the “anonymous believer” the person who follows his concience, does not know the beauty of the church, is only exposed to negative or limited resources.

"To those to whom much is given, much is required! " God will judge me far more harshly if I am unfaithful, than those who have not have the graces that I have had. My Jewish neighbor who practices his Jewish faith, the evangelical who really believes that the bible is the only source of knowledge of God, the gentle Buddhist, the kind Sufi who prays daily, all of these are children of a loving God. God will not turn them away but they will experience Him differently when they die if they remain faithful.

You are blessed because he has lead you to a place where you can experience the fullness of His love in the Mass. I pray that you can come closer and understand more each day when you receive the Sacraments!

You are blessed because you are paying attention to His call in your heart. Don’t be hung
up on what is “objective truth” and “subjective truth” — how that truth is understood by our human minds.

This is still church dogma but the church does not use these words because they are a barrier to good people who simply do not understand.

I pray the Holy Spirit will give you greater insight each day!!

Terry

Hi there! I liked what you said here, it’s really nice! However, certain questions still remain, if what you said is true, (that those who do not know Christ can be saved) then why did Christ have to die on the cross in the first place? In addition to that, why would we even need to spend a lot of time, money and energy to preach and spread the Gospel? Didn’t Jesus say that “No one can go to the Father except through me” (John 14:6) and that we are saved when we “confess with our mouth that ‘Jesus is Lord’ and believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead”? How about what St. Paul said in his letter to the Romans, Ch. 10:
*
13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.*

 

[informed]

There is no salvation is any church, only in Jesus.

My humble suggestion is read the Bible, have a Hebrew-Greek concordance handy and pray to God.

Church regulations and membership will not save you, only belief in Jesus as the only Son of God, crucified for the sins of man and risen.

 

[Bengoshi]

XBaptist,

I am very confused as well. I was pleased to hear the modern interpretation of this doctrine, which goes like this. There are people that are brought up in other faiths that believe in Christ and are validly baptized. They are invincibly ignorant of the Catholic church.

However, whether they know it or not, they are part of the Catholic church. There is only one baptism. In fact, you do not need to be within the physical bounds of the Catholic church to be in the Catholic church.

However, this is contrary to the pre- Vatican II teaching. You are right. Previously, you had to be physically within the boundary of the Catholic church. You had to be “on Peter’s Boat” and ackowledge the Pope as the leader of the church. Today protestants are referred to as “our separated brethren”. Prior to Vatican II, they were referred to a Heretics.

To me, these views seem to be opposed. If this is dogma, and is given ex cathera, then it is an infallable teaching of the Pope. So the questions raised, is how can you have two opposing views, which are both infallable.

I agree. I guess this is the quandary where we are in. Ferrara (author of the book I mentioned earlier) said that the V2 documents never declared itself to be infallible or ex cathedra, they are not dogmatic, as one poster has said. If that were the case, wouldn’t the pre-V2 propponents (traditionalists such as the SSPX, Ferrara, Muggeridge, etc.) be correct that faithful Catholics should not follow the “guidelines” set forth in V2?

 

[Bengoshi]

There is no salvation is any church, only in Jesus.

My humble suggestion is read the Bible, have a Hebrew-Greek concordance handy and pray to God.

Church regulations and membership will not save you, only belief in Jesus as the only Son of God, crucified for the sins of man and risen.

Yes, as an Evangelical, I totally agree. However, I am just trying to understand the Roman Catholic position on this. they appear to be contradictory and inconsistent. In a way it discredits papal infallibility if not explained well.

 

[Bengoshi]

no.

no more than the early Christians were at the mercy of the whim of the Church then…

and no. not anyway it pleases…that is contrary to the Catholic Faith.

remember Peter talks of some twisting the writings of Paul to their own destruction…people of all ages can twist things…both of scripture or of other documents…

Jesus knew what he was doing when he founded a Church and gave men authority to teach in his name etc not merely a text to read and argue about.

(by the way we love the Bible…it is the written Word of God! …)

Oh and by the way RCC is not the proper name. It is Catholic Church.

Tel that to your popes. Several papal encyclicals referred to the “Catholic” Church as the “Roman Catholic” or “Roman” Church. My priest friend borrowed the book this evening to study it so I can’t quote it right now.

 

[usemelord]

No salvation outside the Catholic Church?? Yeah, right!! NOT!! I came into the Catholic Church five years ago at Easter Vigil 2005 after having been a “born again” Baptist/Bible Church Christian most of my 60 years. Like many converts the last thing I thought would ever happen would be my conversion into the Catholic Church. Well, RCIA “happened” and opened my eyes to the “truth.” By that I mean an understanding of the Sacraments, especially, of course, the Eucharist. During RCIA I once asked a priest if Catholics were “elitists;” that is, do they think that heaven and salvation are exclusively theirs? After some reflection the priest answered by saying, “If Billy Graham isn’t going to heaven, then I don’t know who is.” Salvation, therefore, is open and available to all who believe in the saving power of the Cross. My faith for the last five years as a Catholic Christian is simply deeper and richer in every aspect than it was before. Praised be Jesus.

 

[Bookcat]

Tel that to your popes. Several papal encyclicals referred to the “Catholic” Church as the “Roman Catholic” or “Roman” Church. My priest friend borrowed the book this evening to study it so I can’t quote it right now.

Various titles have been used …

but not “RCC”.

The Church per se is the Catholic Church

as is the usage today.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

…Roman Catholic Church is more used for the Roman Church …one of 20 some odd Churches that make up the Catholic Church…such as Melkite etc…

 

[Bookcat]

No salvation outside the Catholic Church?? Yeah, right!! NOT!! I came into the Catholic Church five years ago at Easter Vigil 2005 after having been a “born again” Baptist/Bible Church Christian most of my 60 years. Like many converts the last thing I thought would ever happen would be my conversion into the Catholic Church. Well, RCIA “happened” and opened my eyes to the “truth.” By that I mean an understanding of the Sacraments, especially, of course, the Eucharist. During RCIA I once asked a priest if Catholics were “elitists;” that is, do they think that heaven and salvation are exclusively theirs? After some reflection the priest answered by saying, “If Billy Graham isn’t going to heaven, then I don’t know who is.” Salvation, therefore, is open and available to all who believe in the saving power of the Cross. My faith for the last five years as a Catholic Christian is simply deeper and richer in every aspect than it was before. Praised be Jesus.

Not not…yes.

This is phase that is used by the Church…but it does NOT mean that Baptists or Lutherans etc cannot make it to heaven…

one must understand things correctly …see the Catechism on this…

 

[Bookcat]

There is no salvation is any church, only in Jesus.

My humble suggestion is read the Bible, have a Hebrew-Greek concordance handy and pray to God.

Church regulations and membership will not save you, only belief in Jesus as the only Son of God, crucified for the sins of man and risen.

Yes Jesus save us…

and one can not separate him from his body…

 

[Bookcat]

There is no salvation outside of Christ.

Jesus said unto him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.’ ** John 14:6**

Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Act 4:12**
**
There is only one way.
I find it quite amazing to speak of it as though membership in a particular denomination guarantees salvation.
To speak in such terms, is to make oneself the judge and there is only ONE
judge and that would be God.
We are His creation, nothing more.

of course the Catholic Church is not a denomination…

nor does being a Catholic Guarantee salvation…in the end. For one still has
free will and can die in mortal sin…and thus not die in Christ or as a living member of his Church…

Nor can one separate Jesus the head from his body the Church.

Anyone who is saved by Jesus…will be saved by him and put into a relation with his body by him…

even if he saves someone who has never been able to hear of him…

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, as an Evangelical, I totally agree. However, I am just trying to understand the Roman Catholic position on this. they appear to be contradictory and inconsistent. In a way it discredits papal infallibility if not explained well.

nope not contradictory and inconsistent…one must understand what the Church teaches…all together…

or are we going to charge Jesus with this for teaching various things that are looking at two sides of the same coin??

no of course not.

 

[EDWARDJL]

usemelord,

That is a great testimony. I believe wholeheartedly in that position. The Priests response does reflect the post Vatican II position of the Catholic church, for the most part.

However, I have heard apologists like Tim Staples state this position, in a more limited manner. They would say that It is possible for someone like Billy Graham, outside the physical bounds of the Catholic church, to be saved. However, it is much more difficult. For example, God will forgive us our sins without a priest hearing confession, if we make a perfect contrition. When you a have a priest grant absolution, a perfect contrition is not required. You will have the assurance that your sins are forgiven only when a priest grants absolution.

As I have mentioned earlier, prior to Vatican II, the Church did teach that to be outside the physical bounds of the Church and not submit to the authority of the Bishop of Rome would keep you from attaining salvation. Protestants were considered Heretics before Vatican II, now they are “our separated brethren”.

If this is a Dogma, given ex cathedra, that would mean that this teaching is infallible and binding on all Catholics. The pre Vatican II and Post Vatican II position seem to contradict one another. If this is true, how can both postions be infallible?

 

[Bookcat]

read the whole in context:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm#I

 

[RedBert]

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra:
“There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
“Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, “Iniunctum nobis,” Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

-----------------------vs.---------------------

‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day’ " (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994, p.223).

---

and Catholics claim that is just a clarification?

 

[Bookcat]

‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day’ " (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994, p.223).

---

and Catholics claim that is just a clarification?

this does not mean that Muslims per se reach salvation…it is saying that they believe in the one God (and they get some things right about God) …and that is a step in the right direction.

if a Muslim is saved…it will be Jesus who saves them…

the plan of salvation includes everyone…all are called to be with God …

not all are saved,

 

[Bookcat]

again as many truths it is both/and

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

 

[Bookcat]

again…both/and

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[Bookcat]

again both/and

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

 

[Bookcat]

both / and

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[inkaneer]

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, “Iniunctum nobis,” Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

-----------------------vs.---------------------

‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day’ " (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994, p.223).

---

and Catholics claim that is just a clarification?

You guys will stoop to the very lowest level to denigrate the Catholic Church and then you call yourself christians! YOU LIE!!! You added “ex cathedra”. WHY? Did you think that “ex cathedra” means infallible? Well, it doesn’t.

Now, I realize those are strong words. But Pope Pius IV’ bull entitled Iniunctum nobis is not an infallible statement because it lacks the requirements to be infallible. Iniunctum nobis was a profession of faith of Pope Pius IV. The last paragraph, which you so cunningly cut off, reads as follows:

“This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved, which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold, I, N.,_______ do promise, vow and swear that, with the help of God, I shall most faithfully keep and confess entire and inviolate, to my last breath, and that I shall take care, as far as it lies in my power, that it be held, taught and preached by those under me, or those over whom I have charge by virtue of my office. So help me God and these His Holy Gospels.”

This then is the personal beliefs of Pope Pius IV and as such do not meet the requirements of infallibility as you would so much want to believe. So why do you resort to deceptive practices such as this to try to prove the unproveable? I recommend that you get to know the real Catholic Church rather than the idea of the Catholic Church that your misguided denominational ministers want you to believe. Then you can come on here and add your (name removed by moderator)ut from an informed position rather than parroting the lies of someone else.