Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[Alethiaphile]

well…of course it is the Church who says what Unam Sanctam and no salvation outside the Church means…

and the Church says clearly what it means…(see Catechism) and it does not mean that …a Baptist cannot go to heaven…

or an member of an Eastern Orthodox Church…

one must not take one verse of Scripture and stand it against the rest nor one sentence of Church teaching and do the same…

all is to be understood in the analogy of Faith…and as the Catholic Church understands it…

just adding a clarification.

Words have meanings that are independent of interpretations. Your attitude reminds me of the famous quote from Humpty Dumpty in Alice in Wonderland “When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less.” That attitude has never been convincing.

What you say the church says Unam Sanctam means now is not what it was taken to mean then. Meanings of “infallible” statements should not be subject to change.

 

[Bookcat]

…

 

[Alethiaphile]

…

What you quoted has nothing to do with what we have been talking about.

 

[EDWARDJL]

The quote in Romans 2:14-16 is not talking about pagans. If you have and follow the Spirit of Christ in you, you are a Christian. Paul states that this is how we know we are in Christ, that we have the spirit of him in us. This is often referred to as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Most of the book of Romans focuses on the issue that we are justified and saved by Christ through faith. It is a free gift. It has nothing to do with any particular Church membership or affiliation. If the Catholic church is the one true church, then it is the best church to be a member of. Regardless, you are not saved by faith in your church or your pastor, etc. It it through faith in Christ, and Christ alone. End of story

In Romans 2:14-16, St Paul explains that those who do have and follow the Spirit of Christ do belong to Christ. From this we know that the good pagans really belong to the Body of Christ, His Church in some way, as Pope St Clement affirmed. The Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 defined that “The universal Church of the faithful is one, outside of which no one is saved.” So those who follow the Logos, the Spirit of Christ can be saved because they belong to His Church in some way.

 

[Bookcat]

Words have meanings that are independent of interpretations.

yes and meaning is best understood by the teaching authority of the Church…who has the authority from Christ to do so…

fundamentalists too will point to a sentence in the Bible and say–* the text plainly says*
*
the words themselves mean*…

but that does not mean that such and such words mean what they may think…

which is why there are so many independent fundamentalist communities…(no offense intended to my brothers in them…) they all take different meanings from the *plain *passages…

thus there is need for authority in these matters…as well as in the matter of documents for definitions of the Church …

 

[Bookcat]

…

 

[fms]

Check out this link:

Msgr Barr

 

[Abu]

Alethiaphile
What you say the church says Unam Sanctam means now is not what it was taken to mean then. Meanings of “infallible” statements should not be subject to change.

What it was “taken to mean” by Tom, Dick or Harry, has been the problem with all dogma and doctrine since the beginning of Christ’s Church. That is why Christ gave His Church infallibility in teaching faith and morals, not you or I. That is why we have the tens of thousands of different sects, all teaching something different. The refusal of the primacy of jurisdiction and of infallibility (inferred or declared), conferred by Christ, in teaching faith and morals, has resulted in the cleaving of Christ’s seamless garment. There never has been, nor ever will be, a contradiction in dogma or defined doctrine.

That pagans and other Christians were never considered to be “outside” of salvation from the start of the teaching of Christ’s Church has been firmly identified – from St Paul, to Pope St Clement, through Unam Sanctam to the Councils of Trent and Vatican II.

As Dr Warren Carroll in *A History of Christendom *Vol. 3, The Glory Of Christendom, Christendom Press, 1993, writes (p 340): Pope Boniface in *Unam Sanctam *“was addressing those in almost universally Catholic western, central, and northern Europe who, might willfully refuse obedience to the Pope despite fully understanding the nature of the office he held and his supreme authority in the spiritual realm.” In a footnote Dr Carroll writes: “The entire population in these regions was Catholic except for a relatively small number of Jews. In the Byzantine empire and Russia there were many practicing Christians who did not acknowledge papal authority, but Boniface VIII had nothing to say about their spiritual status in this document or any others he issued.”

 

[Hesychios]

As Dr Warren Carroll in *A History of Christendom *Vol. 3, The Glory Of Christendom, Christendom Press, 1993, writes (p 340): Pope Boniface in *Unam Sanctam *“was addressing those in almost universally Catholic western, central, and northern Europe who, might willfully refuse obedience to the Pope despite fully understanding the nature of the office he held and his supreme authority in the spiritual realm.” In a footnote Dr Carroll writes: “The entire population in these regions was Catholic except for a relatively small number of Jews. In the Byzantine empire and Russia there were many practicing Christians who did not acknowledge papal authority, but Boniface VIII had nothing to say about their spiritual status in this document or any others he issued.”

With respect to Dr. Carroll (founder of Christendom College) I would have to disagree with him to some extent (not entirely, he gives a valid point for us to consider). Perhaps he had more to say than this which has been quoted.

Boniface VIII was locked in a political (and military) controversy with the king of France at the time he wrote the letter Unam Sanctam. In fact he sent it directly to the king.

In his letter, he goes to great lengths to explain his thoughts on the relationship of the civil authority to the religious authority, this is described in his famous “Two Swords” analogy. It is in this context that the letter must be read.

He was advocating a theocratic state, with the bishop of Rome at the apex of power. Theoretically he was claiming to be superior to any civil authority, anywhere in the world of whatever religion, but this claim was being used as political leverage over the king of France in particular.

Modern Catholics tend to interpret this Bull in a solely religious context, ignoring the historical background, most of the text and the cause of it’s writing.

In any case, king Philip got the upper hand and the last word on the subject. Shortly afterward the infamous ‘Babylonian Captivity’ was to begin at Avignon and the Bull Unam Sanctam was buried and forgotten by the string of French Popes. The Papacy has never again claimed (infallibly or not) to dominate the world’s civil authorities and the Bull was resurrected by later apologists as an assertion of ultimate power in a solely religious sense.

Naturally this Bull (which seems to satisfy the formula of an Ex Cathedra statement) is subject to further interpretation. The church began to reinterpret it within a decade of Boniface VIII’s death (despite the “declaramus dicimus, definimus et pronunciamus omnino” language), and the process hasn’t ceased yet.

 

[RedBert]

What it was “taken to mean” by Tom, Dick or Harry, has been the problem with all dogma and doctrine since the beginning of Christ’s Church. That is why Christ gave His Church infallibility in teaching faith and morals, not you or I. That is why we have the tens of thousands of different sects, all teaching something different. The refusal of the primacy of jurisdiction and of infallibility (inferred or declared), conferred by Christ, in teaching faith and morals, has resulted in the cleaving of Christ’s seamless garment. There never has been, nor ever will be, a contradiction in dogma or defined doctrine.

That pagans and other Christians were never considered to be “outside” of salvation from the start of the teaching of Christ’s Church has been firmly identified – from St Paul, to Pope St Clement, through Unam Sanctam to the Councils of Trent and Vatican II.

.”

It is NOT Tom, Dick, or Harry that are quoted:
Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans*, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Enchiridion Patristicum)

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)

Pope Gregory XVI: “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life… You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation… Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that THIS IS INDEED THE TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. He says: ‘The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.’ Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: ‘There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved.’ Finally the same dogma is also expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use, but also that which… other Eastern Catholics use. We did not mention these selected testimonies because We thought you were ignorant of that article of faith and in need of Our instruction. Far be it from Us to have such an absurd and insulting suspicion about you. But We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies” (Summo Iugiter Studio, May 27, 1832)

St. Bede the Venerable (died A.D. 735): “Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside.” (Hexaemeron)

etc etc

 

[RedBert]

yes and meaning is best understood by the teaching authority of the Church…who has the authority from Christ to do so…

fundamentalists too will point to a sentence in the Bible and say–* the text plainly says*
*
the words themselves mean*…

but that does not mean that such and such words mean what they may think…

…

thus there is need for authority in these matters…as well as in the matter of documents for definitions of the Church …

Then how do you know that you are not misinterpreting the current Magisterium’s teachings ? The next Magisteruim could reverse ( clarify?) what you now think is true.

Just look at the quantity of statements from 1215 to the 1930s…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=390318& posts 2, 4, 5 and there are more.

No mention of exceptions, no asterisks, no invisibly, imperfectly, unknowingly connected to the Catholic Church.

It takes a willful unlearning of language, definitions, and common sense to reconcile past statements (many Ex Cathedra) with the current position.

Once again; how do you know that you are not misinterpreting the current Magisterium’s teachings?

 

[Abu]

Hesychios
He was advocating a theocratic state, with the bishop of Rome at the apex of power. Theoretically he was claiming to be superior to any civil authority, anywhere in the world of whatever religion, but this claim was being used as political leverage over the king of France in particular.

No. As Boniface VIII himself explained (DS 870): “For 40 years now we have been a legal expert, and we know that there are two powers ordained by God…We say that in nothing have we wanted to usurp the jurisdiction of the King…” (Our Father’s Plan, Fr William G Most, Trinity Communications, 1988, p247-8).

Pierre Flotte, Philip’s chief minister, forged a papal bull (Scire te volumus) which explicitly claimed temporal authority for the Pope in France. (References in Dr Warren Carroll, op.cit., p 338-9).
Boniface denounced the forgery, saying that he never claimed and would never claim temporal authority over France, and reproved the French bishops for appearing to believe that he had. (References in Dr Carroll as before).

Boniface’s tendency to intemperate language should not bemuse anyone into error.

 

[roman6320]

It is NOT Tom, Dick, or Harry that are quoted:
Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans*, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Enchiridion Patristicum)

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)

Pope Gregory XVI: “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life… You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation… Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that THIS IS INDEED THE TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. He says: ‘The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.’ Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: ‘There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved.’ Finally the same dogma is also expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use, but also that which… other Eastern Catholics use. We did not mention these selected testimonies because We thought you were ignorant of that article of faith and in need of Our instruction. Far be it from Us to have such an absurd and insulting suspicion about you. But We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies” (Summo Iugiter Studio, May 27, 1832)

St. Bede the Venerable (died A.D. 735): “Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside.” (Hexaemeron)

etc etc

First of all, 3 of the above 4 are not Popes speaking ex cathedra, therefore what they have written can be criticized.(particularly St. Bede,s pre destinarian leanings) As for the quote from Gregory XVI, He quotes Gregory the Great, who in his time undoubtedly believed that the gospel had indeed been preached to every creature and that anyone who still would not enter the Church was in willful rebellion against God and not ignorant. As for the rest , Gregory XVI is affirming the doctrine of the Catholic Church being the one true Church and that one cannot just shop around for any religion or belief that suits one,s whims. That is the central truth that has not changed . Note that condemnation of heretics, who are willful rebels from the Church. Most non Catholics this day and age do not fall under the catagory of heretics as they are either born into there traditions or are de facto converts from a secular world view.

As for the rigoristic notion that those who are non Catholic are doomed to hell fire despite being ignorant, how can anyone really believe that? For God to condemn non Catholics simply because they are not in the Church inspite of invincible ignorance and are not knowingly rebelling against God would be unjust on His part, and GOD CAN NOT BE UNJUST.( There, I pointed out the elephant in the room) Note I am talking about the invincibly ignorant who are living according to the light they do have, not the ones who are either in rebellion in full knowledge of the truth or are living with no desire to seek truth, regardless of what religion they are.

Roman6320

 

[RedBert]

First of all, 3 of the above 4 are not Popes speaking ex cathedra, therefore what they have written can be criticized.(particularly St. Bede,s pre destinarian leanings) As for the quote from Gregory XVI, He quotes Gregory the Great, who in his time undoubtedly believed that the gospel had indeed been preached to every creature and that anyone who still would not enter the Church was in willful rebellion against God and not ignorant. As for the rest , Gregory XVI is affirming the doctrine of the Catholic Church being the one true Church and that one cannot just shop around for any religion or belief that suits one,s whims. That is the central truth that has not changed . Note that condemnation of heretics, who are willful rebels from the Church. Most non Catholics this day and age do not fall under the catagory of heretics as they are either born into there traditions or are de facto converts from a secular world view.

As for the rigoristic notion that those who are non Catholic are doomed to hell fire despite being ignorant, how can anyone really believe that? For God to condemn non Catholics simply because they are not in the Church inspite of invincible ignorance and are not knowingly rebelling against God would be unjust on His part, and GOD CAN NOT BE UNJUST.( There, I pointed out the elephant in the room) Note I am talking about the invincibly ignorant who are living according to the light they do have, not the ones who are either in rebellion in full knowledge of the truth or are living with no desire to seek truth, regardless of what religion they are.

Roman6320

well here are the ex cathedra statements

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra:
“There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
“Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, “Iniunctum nobis,” Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

 

[RedBert]

As for the rigoristic notion that those who are non Catholic are doomed to hell fire despite being ignorant, how can anyone really believe that? For God to condemn non Catholics simply because they are not in the Church inspite of invincible ignorance and are not knowingly rebelling against God would be unjust on His part, and GOD CAN NOT BE UNJUST.( There, I pointed out the elephant in the room) Note I am talking about the invincibly ignorant who are living according to the light they do have, not the ones who are either in rebellion in full knowledge of the truth or are living with no desire to seek truth, regardless of what religion they are.

Roman6320

Well that is the issue, isn’t it?

Through personal observation and common sense clearly show that there are non –Catholics that are saved. (or will end up in heaven).

so Catholics are left with a dilemma on how to reconcile the dozens and dozens of previous Ex Cathedra and other statements by the Popes and early church fathers.

The previous statements, no matter how numerous or clear or repeated, actually meant the opposite of what they stated.
There is Salvation outside the Catholic Church, but dozens of decrees just didn’t clarify that?

 

[najmensi]

However, this is contrary to the pre- Vatican II teaching. You are right. Previously, you had to be physically within the boundary of the Catholic church. You had to be “on Peter’s Boat” and ackowledge the Pope as the leader of the church.

Vatican II still teach, what was taught before them.

I give here quotations of Pius IX about people who doesn’t know, that Catholic Church is true Church. And also I give quotations of theologians, because according Pius IX theologians are competent explain what belongs to the catholic faith, and article “No Salvation Outside the Church” belongs to the faith.

e.g. this is book more than 60 years before II.VC:

Thomas John O’Brien : An advanced catechism, 1901 AD, page 63

Those, who through no fault of their own remain outside the Church, and who lead good lives, belong to the soul, or invisible part, of the Church, and will be saved.

---

s4.postimage.org/inAC9.jpg s1.postimage.org/Md_8S.jpg

So, please, don’t say, that it is teaching only “from 2 Vatican”, because, I found it almost in all theologians in period 100 years before 2Vatican.

Namely, Pius IX in encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863, taught:

It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin.

On the other hand, the same 2Vatican about those, who know, that Church is true Church, taught:

Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14:

They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.

So, 2Vatican doesn’t change teaching about salvation.

You must make distinction about “be visible/formal/“in re” member of the visible Church” and “invisible member”, namely “in voto”, in desire. And this desire can be also implicit. Such distinction came from st. Thomas Aquinas.

Similar question is “baptism of desire”. Church fathers and popes in many places said that baptism of water is absolutely necessary for salvation. But on the other places they taught, that people can be saved also without real baptism of water, e.g. st. Augustine about catechumen, who died before baptism.

moreover St. Alphonsus Liguori (and other great theologians) said that teaching about “baptism of desire” is “de fide” (i.e. dogma). However, now some “traditional catholic”(so called feeneyist) said that it is heresy. Although pope Pius XII. excommunicated fr. Feeney for such interpretation of dogma “no salvation outside church”.

 

[Bookcat]

Then how do you know that you are not misinterpreting the current Magisterium’s teachings ? The next Magisteruim could reverse ( clarify?) what you now think is true.

Just look at the quantity of statements from 1215 to the 1930s…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=390318& posts 2, 4, 5 and there are more.

No mention of exceptions, no asterisks, no invisibly, imperfectly, unknowingly connected to the Catholic Church.

It takes a willful unlearning of language, definitions, and common sense to reconcile past statements (many Ex Cathedra) with the current position.

Once again; how do you know that you are not misinterpreting the current Magisterium’s teachings?

Nope it takes Faith…I trust Jesus Christ…and the authority he gave to the Church to teach etc…

and Reason…including my own.

I do not take a verse of Scripture and set up against the rest or take a sentence from a document of the teachings of the Church and take it in isolation or in my own way…

Jesus said:

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

no exceptions…no talk of that he will be the judge …or those who are blind and deaf…

Shall I take this verse and others like it in the New Testament…and say along with some Christians that therefore if someone does not become a Christian…even though it is of not fault of their own…that they cannot be saved by Jesus in some way that I cannot see??

Of course not! Nor does the Church…as Augustine and others pointed out…

One must understand this all theologically…not by way of just a list excerpts from documents …like fundamentalists do with verses of the Bible.

No historian worth his salt would even take such an approach. There is always a context…and the context for any thing theological is the analogy of the Faith and how the Church understands it…which can deepen with reflection and can be expressed better or more fuller in different milieus.

(just think too how things were expressed in general in the past…the kind of language used…which was very different from the way things are expressed today…all one needs to do is read the various older secular works from various cultures and professions etc…this is just part of it…but it is part to consider in any such readings)

Yes I believe what the Church teaches! And I understand what she teaches…

Faith and reason.

 

[Bookcat]

Besides…one will note in Lumen Gentium 14 of Vatican II these words:

This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile,** is necessary for salvation**.

and

They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.

Which is repeating the same teaching…

Yes…there is more said…about those who through no fault of their own etc…but that has been in theology for a long time…even if that understanding has been deepened and further explained in recent centuries as well as put in fine language.

 

[Bookcat]

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin…

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

---

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

---

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[usemelord]

People, people, people! Has anything really be resolved with all this haggling? Let’s face it. We are all wannabe religious scholars but, in truth, believe only what we want to believe. I’ve been on both sides of the fence—sixty years as a “born again” Protestant, and five years as a convert to the Catholic faith. If I ever thought for one brief moment that salvation belongs exclusively to Catholics, I would not have joined the church because that would have meant to deny my dear mother and father the hope of heaven. Or, have I got it all wrong and misunderstood what’s being said here? There have been assertions based on certain edicts and quotes from this and that to try to make out a case that salvation is, or is not, found outside the Catholic Church, but one must avoid trying to “paint with a broad brush.” For example, if a Mormon came up to me and said that the Book of Mormon, or the Forum of Twelve, or some other one of their counsels issued a mandate, would I take it seriously? No. Because I give no weight to a church founded by a mortal man. Likewise, people outside the Catholic Church pay little attention to matters that are uniquely Catholic such as confession to a priest, ascribing sainthood, etc. Bottom line, we are all followers of Christ and no matter what anyone thinks, salvation is available to all who believe. One of the previous posts referenced John 3:16, a verse familiar to all Christians, which says quite clearly,“WHOSOEVER believeth ,” not “Catholics who believeth…” Remember the joke about the Protestants in heaven who were asked to be quiet when they neared a large wall? “Why should we be quiet?” they asked. Answer: Because the Catholics on the other side think they are the only ones here!" End of subject. I’ll see ALL of you in heaven. Praised be Jesus who offered salvation to ALL believers.