Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[mpjw2]

Unrepentent mortal sin. So, to make sure this doesn’t happen, everyday I commit myself to loving God and neighbor. Also I regularly participate in the sacraments and pray often.

David …if you fall into a “mortal” sin, I am sure it was because you were weak in the flesh at the time the sin happened.

No human is perfect. I sin we all sin

i do not know about you but i will tell you I hate myself for being weak and falling to satans temptation and sinning.

The very 1st chance I get, I let God know in prayer how sorry I am and repentant of that sin and I trust Him to forgive me.

after confession God sees me as though that sin never happened.

Do you believe this too?

 

[fxcc]

Originally Posted by fxcc
What exactly is “believing”?

Good question …Pontius Pilate even asked Jesus …what is truth?

Here’s the Catholic definition of faith (or believing, if you prefer):

Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1814)

Makes it rather obvious, that when you speak of “faith” and when we Catholics speak of “faith”, we’re not talking about the same thing, are we?

**I believe what the bible says in Hebrews 11

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.**

Incidentally, did any of the Apostles, who undoubtedly had faith in Christ, ever say “I am saved?” If anyone had Jesus smack in the centre of their lives (quite literally, in person), they did.

**no… but salvation is mentioned…

here is 1 of many

To give knowledge of salvation to His people By the remission of their sins,Luke 1:77**

Instead, St Paul for instance, writes that he might actually be disqualified from heaven! He writes that he’s working out his salvation with fear and trembling! Whoa, what was that all about? He certainly didn’t sound like he shared your surefire confidence about the outcome of his life, did he?

Paul also writes in Romans…

Romans 4:16
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

in verse 13…

It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Do you fear? Do you tremble? Do you await with hope the final verdict on your life? If so, how come you keep commenting again and again on this thread that you’re already 100% sure of getting into heaven?

---

of course I fear and tremble for the fact that God wants to save a wrench like me.

I do not deserve to be in the presence of almighty God for eternity. My human mind can not comprehend how it is possible.

And I am sue that is what was going through Paul’s mind too.

Even in His time of human doubt and fear, God speaks the truth through him as he is talking to his son Timothy…

Timothy 3:13-15
13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have** learned and been assured of,** knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you** wise for salvation **through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

no doubt their my friend

God bless

I gotta quit shortly… its 7 am here in Sydney and I’ve been at this all night! Time for some shuteye, methinks!

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

There’s no contradiction between this line of Scripture and the Church’s definition of faith. Christ Himself says “Blessed are theythat have not seen and yet believe”. One line I get so frequently from my Protestant/fundamentalist friends is “show me and I’ll believe”. If you believe only the things you can see, then where’s the need for faith? At best we see “through a glass, darkly”. It’s one of the paradoxes of faith that we must check what we believe against know truths and yet believe things we can’t always see clearly ( as long as they don’t contradict Scripture, sacred Tradition, the teaching of the Church and sound reason).

no… but salvation is mentioned…
here is 1 of many
To give knowledge of salvation to His people By the remission of their sins,Luke 1:77
Fine, but that didn’t answer my question, which was did any Apostle ever say “I am saved” as in, I am **sure **of the outcome of **my **life - heaven!

*It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. *
Again, fine. But this does not say that salvation cannot be lost, once faith has been professed. Protestants, when they see someone among them fall off from a holy life always get around that by saying “But he/she never had the faith in the first place!” For me, that might be true in some cases, but it just can’t always be true of everyone who’s been overcome by temptation of Satan or of the world or of the flesh. All that’s happened is despite their original faith, some people didn’t have the tangible help we all need to stay the course.

 

[inkaneer]

Hi inkaneer

Excuse?? hmmmmmmmmm?

Inkaneer I will be happy to answer your question.

before I do …I am just curious and wonder what your answer might be to God if this were to happen…

Say you die and come face to face with God at the gate of heaven and God asks you this question…

Inkaneer, I been watching you all my life…tell me why you believe I should let you into my kingdom.

What would your answer to God be?

God, if He were truly God, would not need to ask the question. He would already know. He is, after all, an all knowing God. At least mine is, how about yours?

 

[mpjw2]

Why are you asking us to sin greviously. In order to answer this one must either presume or dispair.

I think it is a trick question and not very charitable.

Sorry David no trick intended… and I would never ask anyone to sin.

let me try to ask a different way

As a christian I fear that if I do not confess everytime I fall to sin, I am doomed. Should I die with sin, I can not be with God.

I am sure when you sin you confess too…what I am not sure about is how long you wait between the sin and confession.

Do you confess to God when the sin happens or wait till the next time you go to confession before a priest?

 

[fxcc]

fxcc said:

Matthew 19

16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, " … ] If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
20 The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

There you have it! Straight from the mouth of the Good Teacher Himself!

absolutely
I also expressed our good works are meaningless if we do not first and foremosr have the faith and belief in Jesus. When Jesus gave the commandments to follow to gain eternal life, He realized that this person believed in Him, otherwise the person would not ask Jesus for advice.

Actually this person didn’t **really **believe. That’s why he wasn’t prepared to risk what he had. Faith’s **always **much easier said than done! That’s why, “faith without works is dead”. The man had **some **faith, he wanted more knowledge and he was definitely keen on salvation, but at the end of the day he didn’t want to have to **do **any more than he’d already done to gain it! So when he heard what the Master had to say he went :bigyikes: thought about it and went away sad.

 

[Beth_Martin]

No beth. I reject your doctrines of men. It is those that I have no faith in. And you completely skipped over my questions.Don’t worry though, I have more for you.

The temptation of sin is a trial to every Christian. Even you my dear. Because if you do not endure till the end, you will not be saved.

Jesus said: Mark 13:13 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake. But he that shall endure unto the end, he shall be saved.

Why didn’t Jesus just say: “And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake however, since you are saved, you will endure till the end.” Would have simplified things alot don’t you think?

You talk like sin is ‘supposed’ to be a part of our lives and it can’t be helped. But again, what did Jesus say, (and I will enlarge the important words so you can’t miss them this time) Matt: 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

When you sin, are you doing God’s will? NO!!!

And here’s the other I threw at you which you seemed to happily ignore because you know you do not have an answer.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

What you do Beth is you take snippets from you Bible, and create entire doctrines out of them, forcing other verses to obey even when they contradict. It’s easy to relate to the Catholic doctrine of Salvation with all of these verses put together. However, it’s not so easy for someone like yourself who hits and stumbles across such verses.

Des, why do you only look at the smaller picture, based on your arguments neither one of us nor anyone else will be in heaven. You must be able to see the entire picture of salvation and how it is achieved. It is all of God and at the same time we are not to sit on are butts and do nothing. We actively participate in the things God has ordained for us to do and we will do them, not by our own power but by the power of God in us. Otherwise none would persevere, no not one. Likewise no not one can do the will of God continuously while in this flesh which is why we groan to get rid of this flesh and receive our full redemption. It is you that takes snippets and make up things as you go as I have shown you over and over and over and now I must do it again.

***Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement * grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, **

**I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance {which are} in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. **

**No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. **

**“MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; 6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.” 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom {his} father does not discipline?

***But by His doing *you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.” **

***{For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. *** ------- Do you see where my confidence to persever is? It is not in myself; but my trust in the power of Christ which dwells in me.

 

[Pete_Holter]

Hi Beth!

Consider the following:
(2) The Church is under the authority of the Word and has no authority over the Word.

We don’t say anything different:

“[T]he living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ,] is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit” (Dei Verbum).

(3) The Church’s authority is at most designative, not constitutive. It may be compared to the power of the bailiff who announces: “Here comes the judge.”

We don’t say anything different:

“These books the church holds to be sacred and canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill, nor simply because they contain revelation without error, but because, being written under the inspiration of the holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and were as such committed to the church” (First Vatican Council).

Source
The Roman Church has made an egregious mistake in this area by invading the realm of the OT canon and legislating the canonicity of the OT Apocrypha*** in spite of Jerome’s clear warnings.***

Jerome was free in his day to hold his opinion on these books of the Old Testament. He was wrong and Augustine was right. But to deny the canonicity of what is here called the OT Apocrypha was anathematized by Trent. Henceforth, whoever rejects their canonicity holds a heretical opinion. “And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector” (Matt 18:17).

If Jerome were alive today, he would repudiate his own opinion for that which is taught definitively by the Church. He would not leave you without this exhortation: “I meantime keep crying: ‘He who clings to the chair of Peter is accepted by me’” (Letter 16). Neither would he spare you: “To one thing only I cannot consent; that is, to spare the heretics” (, Bk. 3, No. 43Apology Against Rufinus).

For every link you provide; I can provide one that refutes from some of the very same people

All of the links I had provided there were to the writings of one man, Augustine. But I’ve seen you call both paul c and inkaneer “Pete,” so I see how you might have gotten confused. I invite you once again to spend some time getting to know Augustine. He won’t let you down!

Beth, I don’t think I’ll have time to continue our conversation. So please let me know if you really want me to reply to your subsequent responses. If you don’t explicitly make the request, I’ll probably just let you say your piece. Have a blessed evening!

By the grace and love towards man of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Pete

 

[Beth_Martin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Do you bother to investigate these claims before you write them? You can’t possibly prove that Peter wasn’t the bishop of Rome. Get familiar with the early church fathers. You will see that there is no question that Peter was at Rome. Start with Eusebius, " the History of the Church", written in 320AD. Its here for free: newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htm

Read books 2, chapters 13-14 to see the relationship between Simon Magnus and Simon Peter. Educate yourself… As for the burial of Simon Peter in Jerusalem, it lacks credibility and has never been taken seriously by scholars, secular or clerical.

No let’s not drop the topic. I was in Rome in Oct 2008 and viewed Peter’s tomb. And what about these accounts that you claim are “many generations removed”? We had accounts of eye witnesses that Peter was buried on Vatican hill and Paul was buried along the Ostian Way outside the walls of Rome. To wit:

“It is recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and Peter, likewise, was crucified, during the reign [of the Emperor Nero]. The account is confirmed by the names of Peter and Paul over the cemeteries there, which remain to the present time. And it is confirmed also by a stalwart man of the Church, Gaius by name, who lived in the time of Zephyrinus, bishop of Rome. This Gaius, in a written disputation with Proclus, the leader of the sect of Cataphrygians, says this of the places in which the remains of the aforementioned apostles were deposited: ‘I can point out the trophies of the apostles. For if you are willing to go to the Vatican or to the Ostian Way, you will find the trophies of those who founded this Church’” (Disputation with Proclus [A.D. 198] in Eusebius, Church History 2:25:5).

The word “trophies” there means tombstones and not some bowling tournament trophy. Now here is your chance to produce the evidence that you claim is “the secular and academic historians concerning the burial of Simon Bar-Jona and the history of Simeon Magnus.” Who are these secular and academic historians you refer too and what did they write? And please give correct and full documentation so I can check them. I have learned that when dealing with protestants with an agenda such as you have that taking them at their word is a no, no. For people with an agenda are not confined to truth when truth contradicts their agenda

Geart we agree to disagree the fact you went to Rome adds nothing to the discussion although I hope you had a good time, which it sounds like you did.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Actually, you brought this up to discredit St. Peter and the Catholic Church. I pointed out contemporary proof that shows both the story of Simon Peter and Simon Magnus and now you want to drop the subject. Okay. I assume this means that you can’t prove your point. correct?

You are correct in that I cannot prove it anymore than you can prove the other; neither of us can but we can weigh the evidence and based on the weight one puts on each historians view, then we both will win the arguement and gain nothing. So we will wait and let God reveal the truth.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Peter says, quoting Psalm 109 “let another take his office.” The KJV, that great protestant Bible, has as its translation, “…and his bishoprick let another take.” So no games are being plaued here by me at all the question becomes exactly which office did Matthias succeed to. Was it the office of Apostle as you claim or the office of bishop as the KJV claims.

As we have seen the word Apostle, from the Greek word apostolos has both a broad meaning as well as a narrower meaning. In its narrower meaning it is specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ while in its broad meaning it could be applied to other eminent Christian teachers such as the disciples Barnabas, Timothy and Silvanus. I say that Judas and Matthias fit into the broader application of the word while Paul fits within the narrower application. To say that Judas and Matthias fit the narrower application creates a contradiction in scripture with Revelation 21:14 and we both know that there is no contradiction in scripture, RIGHT?

Judas dies and betrayed the Son of Man and is the son of perdition; he is no longer numberbered among the 12, which is why phrophecies were fulfilled on both men; one a true Apsotles of Jesus and the other not. Paul comes in the picture much later and the Revelation is reconcilled that easily and accurately.

 

[fxcc]

BTW, just so you know. You are coming dangerously close to breaking forum rules (which you agreed to when you clicked ‘I accept’) on proselytizing Catholics.

*Originally Posted by fxcc
What exactly is “believing”?

Here’s the Catholic definition of faith (or believing, if you prefer):

Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1814)

Makes it rather obvious, that when you speak of “faith” and when we Catholics speak of “faith”, we’re not talking about the same thing, are we?

Incidentally, did any of the Apostles, who undoubtedly had faith in Christ, ever say “I am saved?” If anyone had Jesus smack in the centre of their lives (quite literally, in person), they did.

Instead, St Paul for instance, writes that he might actually be disqualified from heaven! He writes that he’s working out his salvation with fear and trembling! Whoa, what was that all about? He certainly didn’t sound like he shared your surefire confidence about the outcome of his life, did he?

Do you fear? Do you tremble? Do you await with hope the final verdict on your life? If so, how come you keep commenting again and again on this thread that you’re already 100% sure of getting into heaven?*

JustaServant,

Your warning alarms me. I wasn’t aware that I was writing anything in violation of the terms of this site, either intentionally or surreptitiously. Someone stated what they believe. I simply asked on what basis, while clarifying at the same time what I as a Catholic, believe. Is that not what this forum is all about?

Could you or any experienced member of this forum please provide some pointers, perhaps quoting a couple of specific lines from the material I’ve posted, that can be viewed as dangerously close to a breach of the rules?

I’d appreciate it and naturally endeavor to avoid such an approach in future.

Thanks.

Francis

 

[Beth_Martin]

Scripture says, "For wisdom ** will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins.” Wisdom 1:4

When people say that the Virgin Mary was an “ordinary girl” (oh yeah, a sinner just like you and me ) what they’re saying is that God did indeed dwell, quite literally, for nine months, in a womb that was subject to sin!

Reveals a lot about some people’s idea of the All Holy One of Israel, doesn’t it?

Perhaps they should read again with what detailed care God had the Ark of His Covenant built, how it was housed and veiled and protected from defilement, who was allowed to even approach it, how often, and following what routine.

Perhaps they should read about what happened to poor Uzzah, who touched the Ark, even with the noblest of intentions (to save it from toppling over). God does make a point most dramatically at times, for our eternal understanding, doesn’t He?

Perhaps they should read again what God said to Moses about the ground around the burning bush as Moses blithely approached it, and what God had him do!

Now this God, this same God, this unchanging God, who was always so particular about the sanctity of His dwelling place, suddenly makes His dwelling in the womb of a sinner, in a body tainted by sin, no problem. Or so we’re told.

Blasphemers, heretics, and blinded Christians who are sucked in by their lies, NO THANK YOU!

Father, forgive them for they know not **what **they so shrilly proclaim about Thee and Thy Most Favoured Daughter, The Mother of Thy Son and the Spouse of Thy Holy Spirit.

(Now we’ll promptly have that quote from St Paul about “all have sinned” hurled at us! )

How does the Holy Spirit dwell in the Christian who has a body full of sin? Get the picture; we are made a Holy temple by the Lord that He can dwell in us; yet we still have the flesh that is sinful. Mary is no different; she was a chosen vessel among many God could have chosen in His divine providence.

 

[inkaneer]

Originally Posted by inkaneer
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
You say, “There is every indication that what he spoke is also what he wrote.” All you have to do to convince me is show me from an authoritative source where Paul stated that. Of course that means from scripture. Quite frankly you can tell me, “There is every indication that what he spoke is also what he wrote.” till you are blue in the face and it would be only your opinion and worth absolutely nothing. You are a sola scripturist are you not? Then show me where Paul said everything he preached he also wrote.

I cannot convince or convict you of anything and never claim to be able for that is the power of God. But if you are able and are willing you can see the value that Jesus Himself put on the nature of Scripture all the way down to each stroke of the pen. (Matthew 5:18 & Luke 16:17) If what Jesus says concerning the Scriptures cannot contend for your mind, then who can?

In case you were to confuse the “law” as also being referred to as Scripture, the I refer you to Psalm 19 abd Psalm 119.

I could say to you; show me from Scripture many things your church teaches and you would not be able for they are not contained in the Scripture and in my opinion, that which God has not said is not from God.

Hey I am not unreasonable. I didn’t ask you to coinvince me or convict me because you have no authority to do so. What I I asked was for you to show me from an authoritative source [Holy Scripture] where Paul stated that he wrote the complete gospel. You would not be convincing me but your authoritative source [Holy Scripture] would. Of course you know as well as I do that you can’t do that so your claim that Paul’s writings contain the full gospel is merely the opinion of an unauthoritative protestant who thinks they are infallible but the pope is not.

As for your allegation that those doctrines taught by the Catholic Church not being in scripture you would be so very, very wrong. Tell you what, I could refute your position all day long and you would not believe me. So let’s do this instead. You go on line and google The Catechism of the Catholic Church. When it comes up pick a section, any section and go to the very end where the footnotes are posted. There you will see all the scripture references for what we believe and why.

 

[JustaServant]

You are correct in that I cannot prove it anymore than you can prove the other; neither of us can but we can weigh the evidence and based on the weight one puts on each historians view, then we both will win the arguement and gain nothing. So we will wait and let God reveal the truth.

Really?
Hmmm:

So, lets see.
The Ressurection is now 70 years old, and here is what Ignatuis says about the Eucharist:

Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes
Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1.

. . . and are now ready to obey your bishop and clergy with undivided minds and to share in the one common breaking of bread – the medicine of immortality, and the sovereign remedy by which we escape death and live in Jesus Christ for evermore
Letter to the Ephesians 20.

Look at what the Didache (written during Paul’s lifetime) says about Baptism:

After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days
Didache 7:1.

And, oh, look what Clement of Rome (95AD) has to say about Saved by Faith and Works, and Not Faith Alone:

“Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. ‘For God,’ saith [the Scripture], ‘resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.’ Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words.”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 30.

“For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith?”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 31.

“All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 32.

 

[JustaServant]

Oh, and concerning Peter:

“Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him.” Clement of Rome, The First Epistle of Clement, 5 (c. A.D. 95).

“I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 4 (c. A.D. 105).

 

[JustaServant]

*Originally Posted by fxcc
What exactly is “believing”?

Here’s the Catholic definition of faith (or believing, if you prefer):

Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1814)

Makes it rather obvious, that when you speak of “faith” and when we Catholics speak of “faith”, we’re not talking about the same thing, are we?

Incidentally, did any of the Apostles, who undoubtedly had faith in Christ, ever say “I am saved?” If anyone had Jesus smack in the centre of their lives (quite literally, in person), they did.

Instead, St Paul for instance, writes that he might actually be disqualified from heaven! He writes that he’s working out his salvation with fear and trembling! Whoa, what was that all about? He certainly didn’t sound like he shared your surefire confidence about the outcome of his life, did he?

Do you fear? Do you tremble? Do you await with hope the final verdict on your life? If so, how come you keep commenting again and again on this thread that you’re already 100% sure of getting into heaven?*

JustaServant,

Your warning alarms me. I wasn’t aware that I was writing anything in violation of the terms of this site, either intentionally or surreptitiously. Someone stated what they believe. I simply asked on what basis, while clarifying at the same time what I as a Catholic, believe. Is that not what this forum is all about?

Could you or any experienced member of this forum please provide some pointers, perhaps quoting a couple of specific lines from the material I’ve posted, that can be viewed as dangerously close to a breach of the rules?

I’d appreciate it and naturally endeavor to avoid such an approach in future.

Thanks.

Francis

I’m sorry dude. I meant that for mpjw2, not you. I quoted the wrong post.
crawling away embarrassed now

 

[mpjw2]

fxcc said:

Matthew 19

16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, " … ] If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
20 The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

There you have it! Straight from the mouth of the Good Teacher Himself!

Actually this person didn’t **really **believe. That’s why he wasn’t prepared to risk what he had. Faith’s **always **much easier said than done! That’s why, “faith without works is dead”. The man had **some **faith, he wanted more knowledge and he was definitely keen on salvation, but at the end of the day he didn’t want to have to **do **any more than he’d already done to gain it! So when he heard what the Master had to say he went :bigyikes: thought about it and went away sad.

Let me ask you then fxcc, do you sell all you have and then give to the poor?

I will let you know I do not either…I hope you are not suggesting that to those who do not sell their possesions and then give to the poor cannot gain eternal life.

If that were true, only a few people will gain heaven :

 

[JustaServant]

I am done with this arguement; if you have to rely on men that are several generations removed to make a point and I do not think it is accidental that it is around the time of Constantine that all this begins to mainifest itself.

Please provide evidence of this.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Greetings, Beth Martin!

Augustine specifically stated that the Church that he was talking about was spread all over the world and in union with the apostolic chair founded in Rome. That would make it the Roman Catholic Church. Augustine is cited in the current Catechism of the Catholic Church more than any other Church Father, including Aquinas! He’s as Catholic as you can get! As an example, he taught that the “[h]eretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary, and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (quoted in Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers). Sounds Catholic to me! I’ve not read anything of Augustine’s that has been condemned by the Church of our Lord.

Because salvation was from the Jews, not the Samaritans.

Amen!

God teaches us directly through His indwelling Spirit (cf. 1 John 2:27), and He also corrects any misapprehension of this internal Witness by appointing human teachers in the Church (cf. 1 Cor. 12:28; Eph 4:11; James 3:1) who guard us against the doctrines of false teachers (cf. 2 Pet 2:1). Failing to listen to the teaching authority of the Church results in our falling from the faith and becoming “a Gentile and a tax collector” (Matthew 18:17).

Amen!

That would be a circular argument, but Augustine didn’t make it.

We believe that the authority of the Church comes from Jesus Christ and that the Bible bears an infallible witness to this delegation. Our faith does not rest on human argumentation but on the authority of God revealing through the Church (cf. Eph 3:10). If the Church was not able to identify and interpret Scripture, then it could not rightly be called a “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Tim 3:15), because the truth of Scripture lies in its interpretation.

Sorry, that should have been “Manichaean.”

Please enjoy Isaiah 61 by Matt Maher!

In Christ,
Pete

The other explanation and the correct one is a result of you inability to understand what the church actually is and thus you use the wrong contextual meaning of 1 Tim 3:15. The church is made of the group of people, which include the deacons and overseers, but also the congregation of saints who are sworn to allegiance to the Lord and therefore protecter of His Word. It is not the church you have come to know that is the intepreter of Scripture, that is not of man but of God working through men and women as I have already proven from Scripture. But our faiths cross paths in this regard and we see things from two different perspectives; so be it.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Did the Catholic Church “proclaim itself” as infallible or did Jesus Christ, her divine founder, when He said “the gates of Hell **shall not **prevail against it”?

Now **that **sounds like a proclamation to me!

:yup:

Jesus never proclaimed anyone infallible except God. He also said “i will build my church”; he did not say the Roman Catholic Church will build my church. He did not say the Eastern orthodox church will build my church, He did not say that Beth Martin will build my church and He did not say the Peter will build my church; He siad i will build my church and that is what He continues to do. He did say He was the foundation of the church and He did say that He is the Chief Shepherd and He did say that His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. He did say He would die a ransom for many. Only God is infallible and that was the great mistake the Catholic Church made that made she put herself in the providence of God by proclaiming that certain pronouncements are infallible; yet we see from history this has been show to be fallible.

But that is you right and your faith to believe what you want and from whom you want just as it is my right to believe only what the Bible teaches.