Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[mpjw2]

I figured that since it has been that way since the Apostle were even writing their letters.

I guess you know that I do not believe the conflicting believes of those well meaning Protestants who all tell me the Spirit is who is guiding them in the bible interpretationso therefore they are right and every body else is wrong.

wow …finally someone said what I was waiting for

Thank you God

Tomb…it is not a matter of who is right and who is wrong…God is the only judge

I do believe every single word of the bible is in fact truth…do you?

hear me when I say this…

Tomb,obviously on certain issues one of us is right the other wrong.

I dont believe the catholic teaching is 100% correct about everthing they teach

by the way even though I believe the bible as truth, I would be a fool to say that every word which comes out of my mouth is true when referencing the bible.

I believe I am telling the truth, but only God knows if I am or not…if you know what I mean

I agree there are some scriptures which have multple meaning depending who you talk to.

that is why I started an “I am saved” thread where I asked posters to post the 1st thing which comes to their mind when they hear a non catholic exclaim “I am saved”

interesting responses.

Lets say I die and the truth is revealed to me.

I find out I was wrong…

the host did change to the body of Christ
Mary was sinless and a virgin all her life
Peter was in fact the “rock”
purgatory does exist
prayer helps those in purgatory

Tomb, I believe I will still go to heaven…

how is that you may ask…

Because…

I admit I have broken the 10 commandments…sinned
I believe God loves me and He sent His son Jesus to be crucified in place of having to punish me for eternity in hell

I confess and repent my sin each and every day if needed to maintain my soul at a state f grace.

I desire to live my life each and every day which pleases God…
am I successful every day?

I be lying to you if I said I was

thank you and God bless

 

[mpjw2]

I know how it is possible. Principly this would be that you have not rejected the Bride of Christ with full knowledge of doing so. I cannot know if you have met this condition.

wow …sorry i do not undertand that at all

 

[mpjw2]

And so there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

Inkaneer it is for this reason…this belief …which I believe you have which causes you to make a statement like this.

To comfirm my belief let me ask you point blank

If you believe

there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

do you believe that if a person dies as a non catholic ( does not believe in many of the teachings of the catholic church) they will not be saved and spend eternity in hell?

yes or no

another way of asking is this…

Do you believe the only way for a person to enter heaven is they must be catholic prior to their death.

yes or no

thank you

 

[Abu]

mpjw2 (#930)
I dont believe the catholic teaching is 100% correct about everthing they teach…I believe the bible as truth…

You cannot believe the Bible is truth, if you deny that it is history by eyewitnesses who show the establishment of Christ’s Church on Peter the Rock, His miracles, His claim to be God and His Resurrection, and don’t accept that His Church to which He gave His authority can then teach infallibly and tell us what writings are the inspired Word of God as She gave us that knowledge of the truth as fact. So why would you fantasize that Christ’s Church teaches error? How would you know?

 

[Bengoshi]

I truly enjoyed this! You sure you’re not a closet Catholic? And a traditional one at that?

The only bit I don’t agree with is that any unconfessed sin or sin confessed with anything less than perfect contrition (especially outside of the sacrament of Reconciliation) is “covered” by Christ’s atoning sacrifice, in the sense that it’s automatically wiped away. It is Christ Himself who cautions us to “Go and sin no more”, meaning that our “healing”, received from confessing Him as Lord and Saviour, can be lost. *“I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” *(1 Corinthians 9:27)

Meaning that there is no convenient, all-encompassing blanket of Christ’s Blood under which a single “untreated” sin can be hid.

You’re right. The downplaying of sin and its consequences is so deadly dangerous. And yet, it has to be asked, what contribution has the blithe assurance of “once saved, always saved” made to that? If I’m already **guaranteed **salvation and heaven, why should I worry about sinning or bother to pursue holiness? Isn’t this precisely the rationale which prompted Luther to write:

“Be a sinner and sin boldly … No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.”

Martin Luther - Letter to Melanchthon, August 1, 1521, American Edition, Luther’s Works, vol. 48, pp. 281-82.

Not all Protestants agree with everything that Dr. Luther said. What Beth Martin presented is believed by most Evangelicals today. That is why we always teach that we have to accept Jesus as both Lord and Savior. If He is not Lord of all, then He is not Lord at all. A lot of Catholics misunderstand the Protestant/Evangelical position on salvation on this point. We do not agree with easy-believism as Beth pointed out. Saying the “sinner’s prayer” is not some magic formula for salvation. It is merely a verbal declaration of what is supposedly already in a person’s heart. A true Christian will not want to sin and will not live a lifestyle of sin as the Aposlte Paul said. That does not mean that we will not sin anymore of course, for that is close to impossible, if not impossible, for as long as we live in this fallen world. Hank Hanegraaf of the Bible Answer Man criticized pastors who present the false gospel of easy-believism, faith and prosperity preaching, and other similar stuff because that is not what genuine Christianity is.

Moreover, we should not distinguish “Lordship Theology” as a separate system of belief because it is not. Lordship is inherent in Evangelicalism.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Catholics as a a whole are taught they can read the bible on their own and communicate with God directly
yes or no? [yes]… [but someone else said “no” to an apparently similar question posed in a context I do not know, and following a discussion I took no part in].

It seemed to me that the thrust of your earlier question was whether or not Catholics could read the bible and interpret it’s meaning for ourselves, and whether or not Catholics could pray directly from God. To a lesser degree you also seemed to be asking whether or not Catholics believed that God could communicate mystically or otherwise with non-clergy. The answer to both questions is “yes, of course.” That by no means implies that Catholics believe that there must be a miraculous “burning bush” type of exchange for there to be insight into truth. In your earlier discussion, you seemed to imply to the other forum member that you received direct literal (i.e. “burning bush”) communications from God. What a wonderful gift that would be. By no means does the Church teach us that such a miraculous event is confined to the clergy.

mpjw:

well can you or can’t you communicate with God directly?

We can pray directly to God. God answers our prayers directly. But rarely do any of us have the sort of direct communication or apparitional experiences that, say, someone like Juan Diego (Our Lady of Guadalupe) or Faustina Kowalska (Divine Mercy) experienced. And nothing the the teaching of the Church says such things are limited to the clergy neither of the above saints were priests.

mpjw:

…then God does not ever lie…right?

God never lies. People lie. And people can be misled by their own senses and experiences, by other people, or by worse.

mpjw:

So why would a non catholic need to go the the catholic church…?

Perhaps to confirm that the Person “speaking” to him is God. If the Person is speaking anything contrary to what God has spoken before (either in Scripture or from Tradition) then it cannot be God because as you say, God cannot lie.

mpjw:

I believe it is a slap in God’s face

It is a slap in God’s face to go to the Church that He created, to confirm that what you are being told is in fact of God? Is it not God who tells us to test all that we have been told, and to reject what is not True?

mpjw:

If God were to tell me something directly…

And, how do you verify that such a seemingly miraculous event was truly from God?

mpjw:

How do you believe God will feel if I were to say to Him…

I’m not sure how you would feel about it. But, as a Catholic I’m fairly sure that God would not be offended if I tested what was being revealed to me with what I believed to be His Church.

mpjw:

Here is one main reason I am not catholic…

All of these things can be done by a Catholic lay person. The Laity can distribute communion at mass, and can deliver it to those unable to attend mass. A lay person can baptize in an emergency situation. And any lay person can lead another person to pray a prayer of repentece and forgiveness.

mpjw:

…at any moment immediately after confession of all sin, a catholic is saved and their soul is in a state of grace… yes or no? [yes]

But the chance of sin will remain as long as God continues to allow us free will. We cannot freely love God if we are not also free to reject that Love.

mpjw:

Ok…I for one believe I am saved… I wonder why [some here seem to reject that phrase]?

A Catholic will not say it in the same context because we do not accept that non-biblical teaching (OSAS). However, if by saved you mean you have been justified by your repentence of sin, and commitment to live according to God’s will, then I say Amen!

mpjw:

A Catholic has just confessed ALL their sin and believe in their heart that their soul is in a state of grace at that precise moment only…they are saved and should they die right at that moment only they will go to at least purgatory and then to heaven …right or wrong

We would not use the term “saved” because salvation is only determined at the end of one’s life. We would say that a person is in a state of grace, or they are in a right relationship with God. “Saved” is not the proper word to describe the state one is in because, barring the immediate death at the threshold of the confessional that you suggested in your hypothetical, a person can make the decision to reject God.

mpjw:

What is that doctrine that underlies the declaration “I’m saved.”, please explain if you can?

“Once saved always saved” is the common phrase to describe the doctrine also sometimes referred to as the persistence of the saints. The concept that once one as accepted by faith the atoning sacrifice offered by Christ one cannot by any act of sin or deprivation lose that salvation that has been earned for them by Christ’s merits. The concept is contrary to what the bible teaches, and it is contrary to 2 millenia of Church teaching on the subject of salvation.

mpjw:

And I do not believe that the only way anyone can achieve being in a state of grace is if they were catholic.

I do not believe this either. But I do think that the sacramental life in the Catholic Church is the best way to obtain the graces necessary to maintain that right relationship with God.

mpjw:

If that were true…only catholics go to heaven

Spend some more time at these boards and you will realize that this is not what the Catholic Church teaches. While we do believe the Catholic Church is the fullness of what God has revealed to us; we do not believe that only Catholics (or even only Christians) can get to heaven. We leave the judging of souls to God.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Tomb54]

wow …finally someone said what I was waiting for

Thank you God

Tomb…it is not a matter of who is right and who is wrong…God is the only judge

I do believe every single word of the bible is in fact truth…do you?

hear me when I say this…

Tomb,obviously on certain issues one of us is right the other wrong.

I dont believe the catholic teaching is 100% correct about everthing they teach

by the way even though I believe the bible as truth, I would be a fool to say that every word which comes out of my mouth is true when referencing the bible.

I believe I am telling the truth, but only God knows if I am or not…if you know what I mean

I agree there are some scriptures which have multple meaning depending who you talk to.

that is why I started an “I am saved” thread where I asked posters to post the 1st thing which comes to their mind when they hear a non catholic exclaim “I am saved”

interesting responses.

Lets say I die and the truth is revealed to me.

I find out I was wrong…

the host did change to the body of Christ
Mary was sinless and a virgin all her life
Peter was in fact the “rock”
purgatory does exist
prayer helps those in purgatory

Tomb, I believe I will still go to heaven…

how is that you may ask…

Because…

I admit I have broken the 10 commandments…sinned
I believe God loves me and He sent His son Jesus to be crucified in place of having to punish me for eternity in hell

I confess and repent my sin each and every day if needed to maintain my soul at a state f grace.

I desire to live my life each and every day which pleases God…
am I successful every day?

I be lying to you if I said I was

thank you and God bless

Glad I was able to help.

yes I truly believe in what John 6 says what it says and there should be no twisting of the literal words He spoke and these verses are very important because no where else in the bible does He put so much emphasis on one thing as He does right here. So much so that many left Him as they do today because they can not or could not believe what He said in these verses. You must eat my Body and Drink my Blood, something even today people have problem believing.

As for me I would rather not say who is going where since I feel I have no right to judge that way. I also believe the CC is the Church Jesus started and there is enough historical proof for this so I would rather put my trust in His Church than a man-made one than has so much personal interpretation to everything (and can be easily influenced by the people that pick the pastor). I will chose to believe what the early Church believed which is what the CC believes on the Eucharist and will not separate from it because this is clearly the way Jesus instituted it in the beginning. I also believe many many Catholic will not make it because they do not live their faith in their works (with Love) as we need both to be truly followers of Jesus.

God Bless and may He truly guide you on your path.

TomB

 

[mpjw2]

Hi Bengoshi

I am happy to see you on this thread. I believe you might find the subject at hand interesting to discuss.

God bless you for your post…

I need to take a class on communication skills.
you said in one paragraph what I have been trying to communicate for a few weeks, so it seems, on this thread

If He (Jesus) is not Lord of all, then He is not Lord at all.

Amen

A lot of Catholics misunderstand the Protestant/Evangelical position on salvation on this point.

this is why I am here to address this misunderstanding
I believe a lot of non catholics misunderstand where Catholics are coming from too

We do not agree with easy-believism as Beth pointed out.

unfortunately there are too many non catholics who do

Saying the “sinner’s prayer” is not some magic formula for salvation. It is merely a verbal declaration of what is supposedly already in a person’s heart.

agree 100%

A true Christian will not want to sin and will not live a lifestyle of sin as the Aposlte Paul said. That does not mean that we will not sin anymore of course, for that is close to impossible, if not impossible, for as long as we live in this fallen world…

I am sure you will all agree…our sinful life is a sure ticket to hell of which we cannot escape…

there is however one way and only one way to escape eternal punishment in hell …

Thank God for his unconditional love that because He loves us He gave us a the best gift anyone can receive…the one and only one way to heaven

Jesus declared it Himself…

I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father except through me.

God bless you all

mpjw

 

[paul_c]

MPJW,
honestly, your focus is all wrong on these threads. Its all about you. " I am saved", “I am going to Heaven”

Those who go to heaven will be those that understand they are to serve God and others. They will not be the one’s who are so worried about themselves.

Protestant/ Evangelical theology has a lot of “what’s in it for me” inbedded in it. " I can interpret for myself", I can be saved if I believe in Jesus. I am a sinner, I can be a priest. I…, I…, I… , I…

If you paid attention, you would see that devout Catholics don’t think that way. They are obedient to the church. They aren’t worried about their individual roles. They aren’t worried about whether or not they will be saved. They ARE worried about doing the will of God. They want to recieve Jesus into their hearts through the eucharist so that the can be one with them.

We were made to server God and our fellow man. Embrace that. Everything else will take care of itself.

 

[inkaneer]

Hi inkaneer

I do not know if you saw this…

Originally Posted by inkaneer

Hi inkaneer

I do not know if you saw this…

Originally Posted by inkaneer

Quote:
Well that is not all that is missing. There is the NT reference made by Paul in 1 Cor 3:11-15:

“11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Here is a saved man going through a purifying fire. A perfect scriptural reference for purgation. Protestantism has no explanation for this because the only fire in protrestantism is hell fire and saved men do not experience it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpjw2
"Inkaneer…‘fire’ is the fire of God and this event happens in heaven not purgatory.
we will be rewarded in heaven for all the works we did which honor God and His Kingdom
consider this God does not care that you earn a paycheck for a living…

God cares about while you are at work…how many employees did you offere a helping hand too, How many did you let know you appreciate them, how many lunches did you buy for them, how many employees did you invite to church, did you invite to church that one employee that gets on your nerve all the time

that is why God says …and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done
God does not care that I bowl in a league but if I pay for a teammates dues without him knowing who did it …there will be an award for me in heaven
If I share the gospel message to a stranger there will be an award
many things we can do in which there will not be an award …in that there is a loss sufffered because we are not awarded for work which are not in honor of God.
hope that helps."

mpjw

NOTE: This response is too long for one posting so I will continue it in a second posting which I hope will follow immediately after the first one. That said the following is my response.

Thank you, I did miss it. I of course do not agree with your interpretation. The interpretation that I gave is not mine but rather is the interpretation of the church down through the ages. I only added the last part about protestantism having no explanation for it. Now as for your explanation Scripture does not record where this event occurs. This is a spiritual event and therefore is in no need of a time or place. Purgatory is not a place like heaven or hell but rather an activity or a process. However, our finite minds tend to think in terms of an activity as occurring in time and space so we make that jump sometimes without realizing it. A minor matter to be sure as it does not injure the doctrine of purgation.

The Book of Revelation says of heaven that nothing unclean shall enter it. Re 21:27 says:

“But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Sin, I think you will agree is spiritual uncleanliness. Continuing on, Jesus said in Mt 12:31-32:

“31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.”

That last sentence speaks of forgiveness of sins ocurring in this world as well as the world to come. The term world to come" means spiritual existence after physical death. So obviously after one dies and before they enter heaven they obtain forgiveness for at least some sins. The sins are taken away and they are made clean. This occurs at judgement as I will show below. Obviously blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not one of them. But there is some activity that occurs between death and entering heaven. Now, in addition we find in 1 John 5:16-17 the Apostle John writing this:

“16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.”

So John picks up on what Jesus spoke of in Matthew. John calls some sin ‘mortal’ and other sin ‘not mortal’. The ‘not mortal sin’ is what we term ‘venial sin’. Obviously the term mortal means death or deadly and is the sin that can be forgiven in this life but not afterwards [with the one exception]. Mortal sin condemns a soul to hell. So that leaves venial sin to be the one that can be forgiven in the ‘world to come’ or after physical life has ended.

Now let’s look at what Paul is saying then in 1 Cor 3:11-15:

“11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Continued next post

 

[inkaneer]

Continued from previous post

He speaks of a man whose ‘work will become manifest’. That means his life will be revealed. He adds, “for the Day will disclose it”. What is the Day? It is judgement day. The man has died is now undergoing judgement. His life is now being tested with a fire
of purification and the man receives a reward based on his work that survives the test. What does this mean? In Matthew 16:27 we read:

“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.”

Paul, speaking of God, writes in Romans 2:6:

“Who will render to every man according to his works.”

Revelation 22:12 says:

“Behold, I come quickly: and my reward is with me, to render to every, man according to his works.”

Other pertinent scripture passages are 2 Ti 4:8; 1Pe 4:5Re 11:18 and others. So the man’s good works are not consumed by the fire but his other works that are not good are consumed in the fire. These ‘bad works’ are his venial sins that are forgiven. The man is made clean, purified through fire. He enters heaven clean. There is also something called the temporal attachment to sin that is consumed but I will not expound on it here. Maybe in another post if you want.

Now in your response you dwelt on the good works mentioned in 1 Cor 3:11-15 and how the man is rewarded for them. You made no mention of the works that are consumed by the fire. Obviously the man goes through a purifying process through which he is purged of any uncleanliness. We call that purging process Purgatory. That is a Latin word. I point that out because if you go to an Orthodox website they will claim that they do not believe in purgatory. The reason they say that is because it is a Latin term. The Orthodox pride themselves in the fact they read the scriptures in the original language, Greek. The fact that the Koine Greek used in the scriptures is not the same as the modern Greek gets lost somewhere. However, their liturgy is in Greek. Anyway, they view Latin, which is derived frome the Greek language, as a vulgarization. In this respect they are very much behaving as the Pharisees did in Jesus’ day. Interestingly, however, the Orthodox believe in what they term as “Final Theosis” Ask what it is and they will say it is the final purification before entering heaven. Well La Dee Da, but don’t ever accuse them of believing in purgatory. It’s too Latin!

As for protestants they, in my mind, make light of sin. It is too easy to say, “Jesus paid the price” and sweep the matter under the rug. Scripture has a lot to say about sin and its effects and how sin is dealt with. Jesus paid the price for Adam’s sin and through His death man was no longer separated from God unless man wanted to be separated. We separate ourselves from God by sinning. If Jesus alone paid the price for our sins and we can’t do anything as protestants claim why are we then called to repentence? If the price is paid ‘in full’ why is there a need for hell? Why do souls go there? Why is there judgement if the price was already paid in full?

 

[mpjw2]

Hi Robert

after reading your post, I thank God for you for your honesty and sincerity as I do for all posters on this thread.

As a reminder…I am hear to try the pry “the door” of better understanding, one of another, open a little bit more.

I believe that door opened just a little bit more…

Robert I like to start with the concern of the OP…

at any moment immediately after confession of all sin, **a catholic is saved **and their soul is in a state of grace… yes or no? [yes]

you inserted yes …thank you

Robert this is one of the things I am trying to communicate…which you just agreed

But…

I am fully aware of the but

the chance of sin will remain as long as God continues to allow us free will.

agree 100%

We cannot freely love God if we are not also free to reject that Love.

agree 100%

I for one believe I am saved… I wonder why [some here seem to reject that phrase]?

A Catholic will not say it in the same context because we do not accept that non-biblical teaching (OSAS).

neither do I believe in OSAS

I said…
A Catholic has just confessed ALL their sin and believe in their heart that their soul is in a state of grace at that precise moment only…they are saved and should they die right at that moment only they will go to at least purgatory and then to heaven …right or wrong

We would not use the term “saved” because salvation is only determined at the end of one’s life.

Robert, I just learned something right there by you saying that. I agree with you “salvation is only determined at the end of one’s life”, however we never know when the end of our life will come.

We hope it is not right now …but (there is that word but again ) if death should happen right now** would it not be nice to know of our destination for sure?**

We would say that a person is in a state of grace, or they are in a right relationship with God.

Ok I understand and agree with you about my life too

“Saved” is not the proper word

'I understand that now

So…If I were to hear you say…

“I am in a state of grace and I am in the right relationship with God”

tells me that you probably just went to confession and that should you die right now you will go to heaven …if not right away, you will go to purgatory first

Do you agree?

I assume you will say yes
based on you saying yes,

I can honestly let you know that when I say
“I am saved”
means the same to me as you saying
“I am in a state of grace and I am in the right relationship with God”
means to you

No one knows where we will be tomorrow, and as you said …

a person can make the decision to reject God.

absolutely agree 100% which results in our souls being out of grace, thank
God it will not be permanent if we confess and repenr with a sincere heart

**What is that doctrine that underlies the declaration “I’m saved.”, please explain if you can? **

“Once saved always saved” is the common phrase

I was hoping you said that …I agree

However, if by saved you mean you have been justified by your repentence of sin,
and commitment to live according to God’s will, then I say Amen!

It is exactly what I mean

alleluia…Robert it is what I was waiting to hear from a catholic

And I do not believe that the only way anyone can achieve being in a state of grace is if
they were catholic.

I do not believe this either. But I do think that the sacramental life in the Catholic Church is the best way to obtain the graces necessary to maintain that right relationship with God.

Of course you do …otherwise you would not be a faithful Catholic as you are,

May God keep you strong in your faith

If that were true…only catholics go to heaven

Spend some more time at these boards and you will realize that this is not what the Catholic Church teaches.

Robert… I am sure the church does not teach that but …yes but unfortunately, many catholics on these threads have posted to me they believe my sole is in grave danger, or
inkaneer

…“there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church”

or Pete Holter…

You seem to reject a number of articles of faith and without caring much about it. I have little hope for you in your current state.

While we do believe the Catholic Church is the fullness of what God has revealed to us

;
I realize that

we do not believe that only Catholics (or even only Christians) can get to heaven.

Well now, here is a subject we disagree on

to put what I believe in simple terms

believers go to heaven…should they die in a state of grace

non believers are destined for hell

that is why we have missionaries to reach out in the lost world countries before it is too late

We leave the judging of souls to God.

agree…no one knows the decision one will make in their dying breath when they still have a chance to achieve grace and be in the right rrelationship with God.

God bless you Robert

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

Hi all…I come to realize a huge problem…

when it comes to salvation, a lot of christians have a misunderstanding on what salvation is.

For verification, look at this “I am saved” thread I started…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=458051

only third day #5, bluegoat #16 got it right

pug in 21 realizes God is working in the person’s life

If they say “God saved me”, I’ll think they want to share their personal story of how God has acted in their life. If they say “I am saved”, I’ll think something different.

as for the rest there is confusion and misunderstanding

stephe in 24 said

Must be nice to know

also made a powerful statement…

Everyone except a newborn who doesn’t know better commits a sin, so we are all going to Hell

I absolutely agree we are all on death row to hell

but because Jesus came, died and rose from the dead we can get to heaven

We take one a day vitamins for our physical health

How many realize the importance of one a day confessions and if needed one an hour confessions for our spiritual health…keeping our souls in a state of grace.

We never know if we will live to see the next hour of the day

God bless you all

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

Robert to adress your other reply to me…

It seemed to me that the thrust of your earlier question was whether or not Catholics could read the bible and interpret it’s meaning for ourselves, and whether or not Catholics could pray directly from God. To a lesser degree you also seemed to be asking whether or not Catholics believed that God could communicate mystically or otherwise with non-clergy. The answer to both questions is “yes, of course.”

I am glad to see you believe that

God can communiate anyway He choses. Our challenge is recognizing His “voice” which is not always verbal.

you received direct literal (i.e. “burning bush”) communications from God

actually it was my wife…

While laying in bed and being hesitant to get up for church, she heard God repeat His question to her “do you love me”

after the second time she answered …
“yes I do God…ok I will get up and go sing for you”

my wife is in choir.

Is it a slap in God’s face to go to the Church that He created, to confirm that what you are being told is in fact of God?

Good question, the reason I go to church is not necessarily to comfirm what I believe.
I go to church to grow in my relationship with God and to offer myself as a sacrifice to Him.

When the word is preached, God speaks to me through the words which are spoken by my pastor.

Is it not God who tells us to test all that we have been told, and to reject what is not True?

absolutely we must reject lies

actually I believe it is God who is testing us …

you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. Deuteronomy 13:3

and in Matthew

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ " Matthew 4:7

And, how do you verify that such a seemingly miraculous event was truly from God?

I can only answer…knowing deep in my heart it is form God

All of these things can be done by a Catholic lay person. The Laity can distribute communion at mass, and can deliver it to those unable to attend mass. A lay person can baptize in an emergency situation. And any lay person can lead another person to pray a prayer of repentece and forgiveness…

ok… I did not know…thank you

my next questions are

will you ever see a lay person administer communion at home to a healthy person able to attend mass?

or baptize in a non emergency situation?

thank you

God bless

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

You cannot believe the Bible is truth, if you deny that it is history by eyewitnesses who show the establishment of Christ’s Church on Peter the Rock,

Abu you believe what I do not

we just have to agree to disagree on this one

So why would you fantasize that Christ’s Church teaches error? How would you know?

neither of us were present at the time…we are both going on what believe deep in our heart God is teaching us.

God teaches you through the church…which i respect and do not want to change

God teaches me by the Holy Spirit who dwells in me

Take heart abu there are issues we do agree on…look at my previous post to Robert

God bless

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

Hi Tomb

Glad I was able to help.

I appreciate your time Tomb

everyone on this thread has helped me in one way or another bring light to my concerns

yes I truly believe in what John 6 says what it says and there should be no twisting of the literal words He spoke and these verses are very important because no where else in the bible does He put so much emphasis on one thing as He does right here. So much so that many left Him as they do today because they can not or could not believe what He said in these verses. You must eat my Body and Drink my Blood, something even today people have problem believing.

Tomb here is the reality of ot all …

you believe you are partaking of the actual body and blood of Jesus

I respect that

As I am sue you are aware non catholic christians celebrate communion by have a siritual remembrance of Jesus at the last supper. We use wafers and grape juice as emblems for the body and blood.

I am not hear to find out who is right and who is wrong

lets look at the big picture…

You and I are receiving Jesus Christ in our heart in one way or the other.

As for me I would rather not say who is going where since I feel I have no right to judge that way.

It is my hope from my previous post to Robert we all can see the importance of sharing with people being in a state of grace at any one moment…

I also believe the CC is the Church Jesus started and there is enough historical proof for this so I would rather put my trust in His Church than a man-made one than has so much personal interpretation to everything (and can be easily influenced by the people that pick the pastor). I will chose to believe what the early Church believed which is what the CC believes on the Eucharist and will not separate from it because this is clearly the way Jesus instituted it in the beginning.

Tomb stick to your beliefs and may God keep you strong in your faith.

I also believe many many Catholic will not make it because they do not live their faith in their works (with Love) as we need both to be truly followers of Jesus.

I have the same concern for all christians, not just catholic christians

God Bless and may He truly guide you on your path.

TomB

thank you

May God bless and guide you too

 

[Pete_Holter]

Pete…yes or no? to the following…

Have you ever heard from God directly when you did not expect it and you were not communicating with God through prayer, or reading of Scripture, or participation in the sacraments.

I don’t have the gift of prophecy, if that’s what you’re asking. I do believe I have felt God’s pleasure at times. That line from Chariots of Fire resonates with me… “I believe God made me for a purpose, but he also made me fast. And when I run, I feel His pleasure.” I love this line! I believe that I have felt His pleasure too.

Lets say I die and the truth is revealed to me.

I find out I was wrong…

the host did change to the body of Christ
Mary was sinless and a virgin all her life
Peter was in fact the “rock”
purgatory does exist
prayer helps those in purgatory

Tomb, I believe I will still go to heaven…

how is that you may ask…

Because…

I admit I have broken the 10 commandments…sinned
I believe God loves me and He sent His son Jesus to be crucified in place of having to punish me for eternity in hell

I confess and repent my sin each and every day if needed to maintain my soul at a state f grace.

I desire to live my life each and every day which pleases God…
am I successful every day?

I be lying to you if I said I was

thank you and God bless

The truth is being revealed to you now, however poorly, through our witness to you, marred though it is by sin. Today is the day of salvation. You hold heretical beliefs. I tell you this in love. I tell you plainly so that you will know the sickness that needs to be treated. You reject what God has revealed. You have fallen from the Catholic faith without which it is impossible to please God. It doesn’t matter if you confess your adultery and turn away from that sin, or whatever sin it may be, if all the while you are not confessing this sin of unbelief and turning to God for mercy in regard to this sin. You don’t have to wait until you die. I am telling you now that you are wrong. The Council of Trent taught that “If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.” This belief is anathema. That means that if you hold this belief with the free consent of your will and with knowledge that it is anathema, which knowledge you now have, refusing correction, then you are a heretic. You refuse to believe what the King has revealed. You are outside the Church and will die and go to hell unless you repent. I am sorry to use such a strong tone, but I hear the words of God through Jeremiah, “everyone deals falsely. They have healed the wound of my people lightly, saying, ‘Peace, peace,’ when there is no peace” (Jer 6:13-14). I don’t want to be the cause of your ruination because I cloaked and smothered the Church’s saving message in soft clothing. I come to you with the loving words of the Baptist. The axe is laid to the root of the tree.

You say that you can do all things through Him Who strengthens you. I say, Amen! But He strengthens you for perfection in virtue, not for being the full body of Christ unto yourself. You are but a member. He does not equip you for every office of the Church. Paul asks you, “Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?” (1 Cor 12:29-30). Paul employs μη in giving expression to each question, signifying that his expected answer to each of these questions is No.

I am sorry that I am not a better evangelist. I am sorry if my aggressive witness pushes you away. “I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for” your sake (Rom 9:3). You seem very kindhearted. Please understand my “aggression” to be a loving urgency poorly expressed.

With the love of Christ,
Pete

 

[inkaneer]

Inkaneer it is for this reason…this belief …which I believe you have which causes you to make a statement like this.

To comfirm my belief let me ask you point blank If you believe do you believe that if a person dies as a non catholic ( does not believe in many of the teachings of the catholic church) they will not be saved and spend eternity in hell? yes or no another way of asking is this…Do you believe the only way for a person to enter heaven is they must be catholic prior to their death. yes or no

thank you

I stated previously in one of these threads that the parable of the talents applies to this subject matter. If God’s judgement is fair and equitable, if He is an All Just God, then to those to whom much of the truth has been given then much will be expected and to those to whom little has been given then little will be expected. Now having said that I also think that individual members of the proverbial stone age tribe living in the mountains of Borneo who has never heard the name of Jesus Christ let alone has heard even one verse of scripture has a better opportunity of entering heaven than protestants. I say this for the simple reason that the tribesman’s invinceable ignorance of the gospel is truly complete. He cannot search for the truth if the truth is not available to him. Thus there is no way for him to know the gospel let alone make a decision to accept it. For a protestant it is far different. There they have the benefit of the gospel and they have available the light of the church to guide them. They also have available 2000 years of church history.

Protestants also have a share in the deposit of truth Jesus entrusted to the Apostles. But they also have extra baggage imposed upon them by sola scriptura that is not part of the deposit of truth entrusted to the Apostles. For them to reject the Catholic Church outright or without honestly investigating it and its beliefs places them is extreme eternal danger. I see many protestants on these boards who are not here for Catholic answers to questions they may have but rather they are here to defend their belief system and totally reject anything Catholic. So to answer your question of is “…the only way for a person to enter heaven is they must be catholic prior to their death.” I say that that if that stone age tribesman believes in one God, if that is as much of the truth that God gave to him then that is a Catholic belief and that will be reckon to him as righteousness. How can God, who is all just, judge him on believing in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist if he has absolutely no knowledge of it and no knowledge available to him? God can’t **IF **He is an All Just God.

But to the protestant the situation changes. There not only is knowledge available but also available are the teachings of the church. Therefore they are required to investigate the teachings of the Church and compare to their own denominations beliefs. In other words, they are required to search for the truth. Usually when this is done the protestant becomes immediately aware that unlike what he was previously told by whoever taught him, Catholicism is deeply rooted in scripture and we are not a Tradition only church.

Just as justice demands that a different and higher standard be used in judging the protestant than the tribesman. The person who is Catholic will have a higher standard than both the protestant or the tribesman for much has been given to him and much will therefore be demanded.

You wanted a yes of no answer. I can not give you a blanket answer that will cover all situations or all people. I would have to know the mind of God in order to do that and frankly, for now, I do not have that knowledge. But I expect to have that knowledge, as we all will, at the great white throne judgement.

 

[paul_c]

MPJW,
you have received some very agressive witnessing today. These are works of mercy ,not condemnation. You seem to be looking for approval of your belief system from us and acknowledgement that you are saved. We can not truthfully give this to you. We are compelled to tell you the truth as we see it. Your rejection of Catholic teaching and especially the efficacy of the sacraments separates you form the Body of Christ, w
hich is the church Jesus founded. There can be no denial of this point. When you die and are asked on Judgement day, " Why did you reject the church I founded?" what will be your response?

Will it be " I didn’t believe what they taught", or “I wanted to do it my way” or will it be something more creative?

 

[anthony022071]

Well now, here is a subject we disagree on

to put what I believe in simple terms

believers go to heaven…should they die in a state of grace

non believers are destined for hell

that is why we have missionaries to reach out in the lost world countries before it is too late

God would not condemn people simply for unbelief when they have not even heard the gospel preached to them properly. That would be unjust. God judges those who have not had the gospel preached to them by their works,just as he does with those who have faith. As Saint Paul said in Romans,the heathens who do what the law of God requires show that they have the law written upon their hearts,and they will be judged by their consciences.