Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[paul_c]

MPJW,
You are so eager to know whether you will go to heaven or not.:

mpjw:

I can not imagine being on my death bed and not knowing what my eternal destination will be

Focus on doing God’s will instead of trying to earn the reward. Be content with loving God and your Neighbor. Stop worrying about yourself, do what you can for others and simply trust in God.

If you were really at peace, you would not be bringing up the question about whether you were saved in every single post. It just is completely dominating you because your consciences is telling you that you are not yet saved. Do some introspection. Be honest with yourself.

mpjw:

My friend, if you are not sure about God’s promise to you about salvation then your whole life is a gamble

There’s no gambling involved. Just live the life that God calls us to live, full of love, to the best of your ability. Strive to be holy. Leave the judging to God, he’s perfect you know, so he will do the right thing.

mpjw:

I believe the bible is the final authority…it is God’s word…that does not change. what changes is, like you said. how His word is manipulated

So this is completely correct. The answer to this is you need an absolute authority to tell you what is the true interpretation of scripture and what is not. That’s the job Jesus gave Peter. he has the keys and he passed them on to his successor. When you deviate form the chruch’s teaching on scripture, you necessarily deviate from the truth.

 

[banjo]

And you are correct that not believing in purgatory will not condemn you to hell.

So that no one gets the wrong idea, I think it would be well to note that belief in Purgatory is not optional for Catholics.

 

[inkaneer]

inkaneer;6647615:

Baptists use the same scriptures to deny infant Baptism as Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Methodists and others do to support it. So what does that say about the Bible being the "final authority"

as the current rendition of sola scriptura alleges? What kind of “final authority” can be manipulated to support opposing doctrines? Seems to me that the “final authority” is not authoritative at all if it can be manipulated by anyone.

I hear your frustration. but I do not understand your reasoning

I believe the bible is the final authority…it is God’s word…that does not change

what changes is, like you said. how His word is manipulated

example a speed limit sign says 50 mph

no matter how many times you pass that sign it will still say 50 mph

are there drivers who pass that sign going 58mph? 63mph? 70mph?.

yes to all questions

I even saw a 50 mph sign where someone painted the sign and made the 5 look like an 8

well let me ask you your question…

So what does that say about the 50mph being the final authority

What kind of “final authority” can be manipulated

all final authorities can be manipulated.

The question is what truth is the final authority sending, and are we believing that truth and if we believe that truth do we seek for a better way

final authority. whether its a speed limit sign or God’s word does not change…it is still the final authority.

No you don’t see where I am coming from. Anything that is final has nothing after it. A final authority cannot be manipulated as you claim or else it is not the final authority. The real final authority would be the person doing the manipulating. Those drivers manipulating the speed limit in excess of the speed limit posted on the sign are doing so inviolation of the authority that is behind the sign. So too those protestants manipulating the scriptures by their own interpretation are violating the authority that is behind the scriptures. That authority is the Holy Spirit. Those drivers who speed are subject to a penalty or punishment. How about those protestants? What penalty are they subject to? The answer is in the book of Revelation. Revelation 21:27 says [speaking of heaven]:

“But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Notice the underlined part, “pactices … falsehood”. So go ahead, manipulate the scriptures to your hearts content and while you are practicing falsehood know that your manipulations are an abomination before the Lord and thus you will not enter heaven.
Jesus said it like this:

"21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’” [Mt 7:21-23]

It not your way; its God’s way or else it’s the highway…to hell. No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church is another way to say it.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

mpjw2;6650750:

No you don’t see where I am coming from. Anything that is final has nothing after it. A final authority cannot be manipulated as you claim or else it is not the final authority. The real final authority would be the person doing the manipulating. Those drivers manipulating the speed limit in excess of the speed limit posted on the sign are doing so inviolation of the authority that is behind the sign. So too those protestants manipulating the scriptures by their own interpretation are violating the authority that is behind the scriptures. That authority is the Holy Spirit. Those drivers who speed are subject to a penalty or punishment. How about those protestants? What penalty are they subject to? The answer is in the book of Revelation. Revelation 21:27 says [speaking of heaven]:

"But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood

, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life."

Notice the underlined part, “pactices … falsehood”. So go ahead, manipulate the scriptures to your hearts content and while you are practicing falsehood know that your manipulations are an abomination before the Lord and thus you will not enter heaven.
Jesus said it like this:

"21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’” [Mt 7:21-23]

It not your way; its God’s way or else it’s the highway…to hell. No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church is another way to say it.

The protestants are proud people and have no need for authority since the bible and faith alone is all thats needed. Isn’t pride one of the deadly sins ???

 

[mpjw2]

So I ask again why would you fantasize that Christ’s Church teaches error? .

Abu, I will answer that question again.

I do not believe Jesus Christ teaches errors

I do not believe Jesus Christ church is only the catholic church

there are some teachings of the Catholic church I do not accept as truth ( i.e. purgatory, Mary was sinless and a virgin her whole life, infant baptism to name a few)

I do believe Jesus Christ’s church body is made up of not only the catholic Church but is made up of all the christian church of believers who exist in the world today.

God bless

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

What does the Grace of God have to do with how much one sin is worse than the other?

Everything…In God’s eyes sin is sin. Any size scar (sin) on our soul will keep us separated from God.

God’s grace forgives all sins no matter how big or how small​

there is no one person on the face of this earth who lived a sinfree life but Jesus.

Tell that to a preborn, newborn, or infant who died before reaching the appropriate age of reason.

of course …I did not expect you to say newborns or infants dying before reaching the appropriate age of reason

name another besides Mary who you believe was sinless, however I do not​

and there is no one person on the face of this earth who has not broken at least one of the 10 commandments in some way each and every month of their life

If you wish to believe that, then it’s up to you.

des in due respect adultery is a mortal sin right?

I am male and married and God forgive me… I commit adultery at least once a month

Did your jaw just drop??

Des I am not talking about the physical act of adultery, I am talking about the spiritual act

But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28

If you are male you can agree with me it is hard to not even have the least bit of lustful thought seeing the way some woman dress these days.​

sin is sin and that sin will prevent us from entering heaven if our soul is not in a state of grace when we die.

Only mortal sin will prevent that.

I would sincerely encourage you to believe otherwise.

I confess anything in my life that is not pleasing to God,

primary example …Galations 5

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that

those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have*** crucified the flesh ***with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

---

if the murdering rapist sincerely repents and confesses, God will know his heart and desire not to murder again

I believe that as well.

I am glad to see we believe on something

I am sorry… I overlooked your message to beth

thank you

God bless

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

God in his mercy and justice, will give everyone the opportunity to choose between heaven and hell. Some are born into the Catholic Church and get the benefit of the sacraments, yet they still have the chance to choose between heaven and hell and some

Paul, do you actually believe what I just quoted you?

God is giving you a choice between heaven or hell?

Well If you believe God is giving you that choice …

why on earth do you believe He is giving that choice with doubt?

I know you want to go to heaven, who doesn’t?

, but I have not yet seen you or any catholic post that they know for sure they are going to heaven should they die right now.

So,

do you really believe you have a choice…heaven or hell?

or

do you believe God ultimately has that choice heaven or hell?

Paul you may not have tomorrow to do the will of God, love Him and neighbor

If tonight you take your last breath, tomorrow you will be in your eternal home

will your eternal home be heaven

yes or no?

this is a catholic answer forum and to this point it is the one question catholics can not answer.

if yes, why do you believe you are going to heaven?

if not sure, why are you unsure?

thank you and God bless

mpjw

 

[Bengoshi]

I don’t get what you are driving at here.
Of course you will not be condemned if you never hear the gospel. And yes, your entrance into heaven or hell ultimately will be decided by your actions:

St. Paul describes this in Roman’s 2:
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek

He goes on to say that not having known the gospel is no excuse for bad behavior:

12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, 6 while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

God in his mercy and justice, will give everyone the opportunity to choose between heaven and hell. Some are born into the Catholic Church and get the benefit of the sacraments, yet they still have the chance to choose between heaven and hell and some separate themselves from God and the Church

Some are born outside the Catholic Church but through various methods have access to it, including through this forum. They too have a choice to join and be saved or to remain separated.

Finally, a few are born outside the Catholic Church and never have access to its teachings or sacraments. These still have the natural law writen on their hearts and still have conscience to guide them as St. Paul says above… Less will be expected of them, of course since less has been given.

Even in this last case, salvation is through the church because to reach heaven, they will need to act as Catholics in their life, albiet without the benefit of Catholic instruction.

I suppose you really didn’t get my point.

Let me explain in simplified terms:

1. People who die without accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior shall go to Hell because Jesus is the only way to salvation.
2. That is why we are commissioned to go and make disciples of all nations and to baptize them in the name of the Holy Trinity and teach them everything Jesus commanded us.
3. You might say this is unfair; how about those who never had the chance to hear the Gospel? However, it is not unfair because in the first place, salvation is a gift which we do not deserve. Hence, it cannot be demanded. It is by grace that we are saved through faith.
4. Left to ourselves, we all deserve eternity of damnation in Hell because of our sins, including original and inherited sins.
5. But the Bile says we are judged by our actions? Yes we will. Our works will determine the level of our rewards in Heaven or the severity of our punishment in Hell. Works will not determine our salvation. God’s grace accepted through our faith will.
6. St. Paul was pertaining to the OT Mosaic Laws in Romans. Indeed, the Jews who have the Law will be judged according to it but those who do not, like the Gentiles at that time, will be judged apart from the Law. This is in relation to my explanation in No. 5 above.

I hope this is clear enoough to be understood.

 

[Tomb54]

Hi all

just want to let you know a catholic brethern is in desperate need of prayer.

If God places it on your heart to do so…

his post is

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6647271&postcount=1

Thank you mpjw2

God Bless you and you thoughtfulness

 

[Tomb54]

Abu, I will answer that question again.

I do not believe Jesus Christ teaches errors

I do not believe Jesus Christ church is only the catholic church

there are some teachings of the Catholic church I do not accept as truth ( i.e. purgatory, Mary was sinless and a virgin her whole life, infant baptism to name a few)

I do believe Jesus Christ’s church body is made up of not only the catholic Church but is made up of all the christian church of believers who exist in the world today.

God bless

mpjw

OK if Christ Church is made up of all Christan believers then who interprets the bible accurately?
If you say the Holy Spirit only then why so many different beliefs?
Can the Holy Spirit contradict Himself?
If not why so many conflicting beliefs if they are all guided by the same Spirit?

Jesus said His church would not have the gate of hell prevail against it and if there are contradictions within His church then it has and He was wrong. Also if He was not wrong then that church has to exist today as one church that does not conflict with itself and that has stood the test of time with united leaders who guide it as the Apostle said it has.
What church is it that is out there that has stood the test of time and has been proven to be guided by the Holy Spirit which the bible proves is the case?

Jesus said you must put a light on a stand for all to see so it can’t be invisible or scattered all over in disunity.

Tomb

 

[Bengoshi]

Abu, I will answer that question again.

I do not believe Jesus Christ teaches errors

I do not believe Jesus Christ church is only the catholic church

there are some teachings of the Catholic church I do not accept as truth ( i.e. purgatory, Mary was sinless and a virgin her whole life, infant baptism to name a few)

I do believe Jesus Christ’s church body is made up of not only the catholic Church but is made up of all the christian church of believers who exist in the world today.

God bless

mpjw

Just to clarify, Christ has one catholic (universal) Church, which includes all Christian churches (congregations, denominations) around the world.

 

[mpjw2]

I suppose you really didn’t get my point.

Let me explain in simplified terms:

1. People who die without accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior shall go to Hell because Jesus is the only way to salvation.
2. That is why we are commissioned to go and make disciples of all nations and to baptize them in the name of the Holy Trinity and teach them everything Jesus commanded us.
3. You might say this is unfair; how about those who never had the chance to hear the Gospel? However, it is not unfair because in the first place, salvation is a gift which we do not deserve. Hence, it cannot be demanded. It is by grace that we are saved through faith.
4. Left to ourselves, we all deserve eternity of damnation in Hell because of our sins, including original and inherited sins.
5. But the Bile says we are judged by our actions? Yes we will. Our works will determine the level of our rewards in Heaven or the severity of our punishment in Hell. Works will not determine our salvation. God’s grace accepted through our faith will.
6. St. Paul was pertaining to the OT Mosaic Laws in Romans. Indeed, the Jews who have the Law will be judged according to it but those who do not, like the Gentiles at that time, will be judged apart from the Law. This is in relation to my explanation in No. 5 above.

I hope this is clear enoough to be understood.

Hi Bengoshi …

I agree with everything you stated…right on point:thumbsup:

if I may further elaborate on the following…

1. You might say this is unfair; how about those who never had the chance to hear the Gospel?

I for one for a long time believed that if you did not hear the gospel how then can God punish these people for eternity.

Romans 1:20 makes it very clear that no man is without excuse…

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

The fact is whether you heard the Gospel or not every human being on this earth will at some point in there life commit at least one of the following sins…

adultery, lie, steal, take Lords name in vain, not honor the Sabbath, covet, worship idols, have false Gods, not honoring parents, murder

having done so, their soul will be separated from God

God is sovereign and will punish anyone with sin

this is not my words but God’s

no man is without excuse according to Romans

God bless

 

[Abu]

That’s a very good example of mucking things up by trying to self-interpret The Church’s Sacred Scriptures. Rejected is Baptism of Desire.

In Catholic For A Reason, Emmaus Road, 1998, the convert Scott Hahn explains:
“Salvation And The Church…By establishing the New Covenant, Christ founded one Church – through His own resurrected body – as an extension of His Incarnation and the Trinity’s life. The Catholic Church is the universal Family of God, outside of which there is no salvation. This teaching does not condemn anyone. Rather, it simply clarifies the essential meaning of salvation and the Church. Since the essence of salvation is the life of divine sonship, to speak of salvation outside of God’s family, the Church, is to confuse things greatly – since being outside God’s family is precisely what we need to be saved from.” ( p 11).

The Church has always regarded the baptism of non-Catholics as valid – and a valid baptism means you are, in some sense, in union with Christ through His Church. Further, Pope Clement (circa A.D… 95) affirmed that “those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God." Christ’s Church knew from the beginning that non-Catholics could be saved. Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

The “necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation” = no salvation without the Catholic Church; the doctrinal meaning of the phrase, means that whether they know it or not, salvation for anyone can come only through Christ’s Church. Christ offers the actual graces which can enable them to follow the natural moral law, and to come home fully if they have the opportunity to so do. Who responds to these graces cannot always be known by us,

 

[mpjw2]

paul…

MPJW,
You are so eager to know whether you will go to heaven or not.:

No…I am asking you are you going to heaven for sure?​

I can not imagine being on my death bed and not knowing what my eternal destination will be

Focus on doing God’s will

ok Paul…just today I was at a restaurant with my family and let our server know that when our food comes we will pray over our meal.

we then asked her if there was anything we could pray for her about

she said thank you …let me think about that

when she came back a floodgate opened up with her concern

the new manager of the restaurant is real mean and is fearing for her job…not just her job but her coworkers too

she was almost in tears as she went on telling me some other things

I let her know that we will pray for God to soften her managers heart.

there was a gift shop in the restaurant and God called me to offer her a gift.
there was a small cross which drew my attention.

She accepted the gift and i let her know we will continue to pray for her

when was the last time you asked your server for a prayer request?

want to hear more?

I will be happy to let you know

Paul I cherish doing the will of God…it is my #1 goal in life

but at the same time I do not know if tomorrow will come

That is why I am asking you the question about dying right now

tomorrow is not guaranteed

instead of trying to earn the reward.

I am not trying to earn the reward…

I already received the reward

What I am trying to do is letting you know

God wants to give you the reward too

Be content with loving God and your Neighbor

.

God is calling on me to do more

Stop worrying about yourself,

I am sorry you believe I am

do what you can for others

I gave witness above

and simply trust in God.

Good advice

as you said in another post paul

God has given you a choice …heaven or hell

question is …

Do you trust God that heaven or hell is 100% your choice or partly God has a say to of your eternal destination?

If you were really at peace, you would not be bringing up the question about whether you were saved in every single post.

I will not be at total peace until I let every person I come in contact with know about the wonderful gift of salvation God wants to give them

It just is completely dominating you because your consciences is telling you that you are not yet saved

.

wrong I am afraid.

It is dominating me because I desire everyone to have what I have…God’s gift of salvation

Be honest with yourself.

I can not be anymore honest than I am right here on this post

God bless you with understanding

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

No you don’t see where I am coming from.

I am sorry inkaneer… I believe you and Paul do not believe where I am coming from

let me state first…

I thank God for Robert who I believe is starting to understand my position…
have you read his post to me?

I will answer you tomorrow Robert…thank you for your response

I thank God for Tomb

who acknowledged my outreach

I thank God for you and Paul for helping me realize I am right where God wants me to be.

look at my last post to paul and you will see why I believe you two do not know where I am coming from…

inkaneer

It not your way; its God’s way or else it’s the highway…to hell. No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church is another way to say it.

If you honestly believe that after reading my last post to Paul with everything I stated right from my heart…

do you still believe what I am doing an/or desire is my way?

tell me how please how

I am still on the highway to hell?

tell me why you believe I am if that is so

and then tell me if I were to die in my sleep tonight
how I can I know for sure I will be in heaven when I wake up

if you can not tell me in your own words

then please keep the threat to hell to yourself

I would sincerly appreciate that

God bless and good night

mpjw

 

[Bengoshi]

Hi Bengoshi …

I agree with everything you stated…right on point:thumbsup:

if I may further elaborate on the following…

I for one for a long time believed that if you did not hear the gospel how then can God punish these people for eternity.

Romans 1:20 makes it very clear that no man is without excuse…

The fact is whether you heard the Gospel or not every human being on this earth will at some point in there life commit at least one of the following sins…

adultery, lie, steal, take Lords name in vain, not honor the Sabbath, covet, worship idols, have false Gods, not honoring parents, murder

having done so, their soul will be separated from God

God is sovereign and will punish anyone with sin

this is not my words but God’s

no man is without excuse according to Romans

God bless

Thank you for the elaboration! It’s very helpful!

 

[mpjw2]

The protestants are proud people and have no need for authority since the bible and faith alone is all thats needed. Isn’t pride one of the deadly sins ???

Matthew read my last two post to paul and inkaneer and then I challenge you to say the same thing about me.

Are there protestants who are immature, baby christians, just do not know the truth yet?

absolutely

by the way,

God and His word the bible is my final authority and is all I need.

that is not being prideful

That is honor and respect for almighty God

to label protestants as you just did as prideful…serves no purpose

Matthew…I encourage you to be God’s servant, as fxcc posted in this thread be a little Jesus to them

are you perfect without fault, just in case you are wondering I have many faults

God is working on changing me each and every day to be the person He wants me to be

God bless

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

Just to clarify, Christ has one catholic (universal) Church, which includes all Christian churches (congregations, denominations) around the world.

absolutely

thank you and

God bless

 

[mpjw2]

Thank you for the elaboration! It’s very helpful!

Bengoshi…as your post always are

God bless

 

[diggerdomer]

I was a Baptist, but have been attending a Catholic Church for the past 3 years. I really felt like the Catholic Church might be the true Church, but I am hopelessly hung up on the “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church” dogma, and haven’t been able to figure it out.

As I understand it, “No Salvation Outside CC” is a dogma. That means that once it is set in place, it can’t be changed, right? As I read old “classic” Catholic literature (Alphonsus Ligouri, Theresa of Avila, Augustine, etc), I see a literal “no nonsense” understanding of “No Salvation Outside CC”. I have many pages of quotes and Church writings that say so. This teaching began (as far as I can tell) even before the year 100, and had been taught consistently up until about the last 50 years or so.

Okay, here’s the confusing part. In the modern Catholic Church, this isn’t taught anymore. In fact, the opposite it now taught. I talked to “my priest” and asked him about it, and he said that the CC realized that had been too harsh, and had changed it’s mind - they are more “merciful” since Vatican II. I didn’t think that dogma could be changed like that, can it?

I’m very confused about the whole dogma thing. Can dogma change? Can ex-cathedra dogma be wrong? Is my priest wrong? Is this just something that I’m not supposed to understand?

Also, am I the only Catholic that is hopelessly confused about this topic? I’ve looked for information about this, and all I can find is sedevacantist stuff, which has it’s own set of big problems. It seems everyone else I talk to (several other priests included) is satisfied with the explanation that 1900 years of beliefs have changed in the last 50 years. Am I the only one who is frustrated with this?

I can post some of the saints’ and Popes’ quotes if requested, but I didn’t want to make this post go unnecessarily long.

Can anyone help me, please?

See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 846-848