Vice Presidential Debate

[IbnFiktur]

No, its not a strawman to point out that if Obama had said that he would put in place policies which force the Catholic church to violate its conscience then he might well have lost in 2008. Why do you think the Democrats lost so heavily in the midterms, because people liked what Obama did in his first two years? Obama won in 2008 because of favorable circumstances and the press didn’t do its job in pointing out his radicalism. Instead, what put him over the top was that people could “make history” by voting for him and trust his vague " bringing the country together" rhetoric. And its not cheap shots to point out the failings of the Obama adminstration which are many. Your criticism of Romney/Ryan is unfair and way off base.

Ishii

Everything in this post is a Strawman as well (ie, you’re arguing against something that I’m not arguing against) except for your last sentence. As to that, since you provide no evidence to back up that sentence, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

LisaA: Thank you for your well-thought-out response. I agree with you on much of it, save the foreign policy bits and your belief that Romney is well-qualified. I’m posting from an iPhone, but if you like I can be more specific on foreign policy later.

I have read Obama’s War, by the way, and I thought it was a fascinating book. Woodward is one of the last great journalists of our time.

 

[jwinch2]

ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/LIBSIN.HTM

 

[LisaA]

LisaA: Thank you for your well-thought-out response. I agree with you on much of it, save the foreign policy bits and your belief that Romney is well-qualified. I’m posting from an iPhone, but if you like I can be more specific on foreign policy later.

I have read Obama’s War, by the way, and I thought it was a fascinating book. Woodward is one of the last great journalists of our time.

Thanks would be interested in your foreign policy thoughts. It is an area where Romney doesn’t have much experience but then neither has ANY President for decades. Maybe GB 41 is the last President who not only fought in a foreign war (and a hero!) but had a good range of foreign policy chops. Kind of interesting as I was thinking about this, contrast GB 41 and GB 43, the latter criticized for “not getting the job done” in Iraq but then look at the GB43 nation building approach. I think when I first observed the Iraq War my bleeding heart took over and I thought of all those poor people living in squalor and under a tyrant. But what did it cost us in blood and treasure. Maybe GB41’s approach was better…I’m starting to think so. How about you?

I’ve seen a lot of Woodward lately on the various political shows. I would believe him to be a Democrat but admit he does seem to avoid the partisanship when writing or speaking. I got a lot more out of his books than from partisans on either side.

No rush to reply though until you get to a regular computer…I can barely type out a five word sentence on that itty bitty iPhone keyboard. On a regular keyboard I’m 70wpm and it’s FRUSTRATING. Especially when if you’re like me and never met a word you didn’t need to include
Lisa

 

[CaptFun]

CaptFun responds in RED to epan’s takes - (in black)

---

This thread is about emotion and has nothing to do with facts.

I’ll bet I could guess your political affiliation then. Without even getting occult about it.

Count me out. Yerrrrrrrr OUT! Baseball playoff time now?

Where is FDR’s current incarnation when we need him? - you may have him now! Elect him three more times without the economy getting better until full employment is brought in with a military draft and a world war that mostly devastated three continents for the purpose of swapping bad guys from Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo – to Stalin, Mao and a cornucopia of violent “revolutionary” dictators throughout the world.

You Hoover fans just can’t measure up. You must mean Herbert Hoover right? As J. Edgar Hoover ran the FBI for FDR - and makes me think that, yeah, maybe Roosevelt wasn’t ALL bad. Still the worst Roosevelt we’ve ever had for President though. - “Bully!”

Herbert Hoover was one of the finest human leaders ever. Even if the Presidency was the LOW point of his career! His advances in the field of mining and translation of ancient texts on the subject with his wife Lou Henry Hoover bless us still. During WWI - working for the Wilson administration, Hoover saved lives from Belgium to Russia because all sides in the war trusted him as a man of integrity. He may have won in '32 still, had he not stuck with the Volstad Amendment (prohibition of liquor). And may have ended the depression sooner if given a second term. We’ll never know. But Truman brought Hoover back to public service because really there was no one better to do the job of healing Europe. (Politically General Marshall got the credit instead of Hoover and James Forrestal “The Marshall Plan” - but Marshall later left his office under a cloud). trumanlibrary.org/hoover/hooverbio.htm

We are in a real bind here. Romney will make everything much much much much much much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much muchmuch much much much

worse. … thanks for reminding me of Max Headroom. Click link for 1980s social reference. youtube.com/watch?v=qYnSaPj5ndw&feature=related

history has proved this, based on his stated principles. Romney has failures to match Obama’s? Massachusetts thrived and the Olympics he ran were a success. He ran successful businesses and - even if charges that Romney “outsourced” American jobs were absolutely TRUE (I think true a bit, but part of saving other jobs); he’d be losing bigtime to Obama in an outsourcing contest. Has he stated a principle of borrowing trillions from China like Obama did - and I somehow don’t know about it? If he is WORSE somehow - that would be (horrifyingly) impressive and give me pause. Details please for the good of humanity.

yet, the impossible alternative is obama.

so we need to choose the least evil, which is apparently the incompetency of obama. Incompetent evil might be better than incompetent “good” perhaps. If only he were incompetent in ways that benefitted us (like say cutting off funds to Planned Parenthood accidentally, or having his Justice Administration zealously and suspiciously investigate and harrass them – like they were ballplayers or something).

I’ll grant you Romney doesn’t look to be the next FDR - but I’m giving him a shot. And while Obama’s uber-radical abortion hawking had me cross him off my list long ago - I think I’d be dumping him by now, ***even if he and Romney were equally pro-life!

---

And relative to THIS thread, had the VP debate been a tie-breaker, Ryan’s facts trumped Biden’s hilarious face-making*** by a little bit.*** :egyptian:

Your (damning with faint praise?) words “evil” and “incompetency” play a part in this. As for Romney being the “lesser evil?” The bar set by BHO is real, real, real, real low. IMO.

Hang in there epan! You are getting warm. Rather than count you out, I’d rather count US … SAFE!

Continuing ON … now I’m not so sure of your affiliation epan. But for the sake of entertainment to some, I’ll leave the little jab at the Democrats in there. -my bad

Dear Readers. Epan’s first line above (and in fact the rest of them) were in response to someone else’s post. Please scroll back for the context of his responses. This is a response to a response - not to an initiating post of epan’s (to be fair)

 

[MJE]

This from Newt Gingrich:
*Ben Domenech said it well in his recent Transcom newsletter:
“Last night Ryan ran into one of the consummate liars and demagogues of our political age in Joe Biden, a blustering boisterous blowhard of a man who careens forward, capped teeth flashing in the sun, through inaccuracies and conflations of all shapes and sizes with reassuring emotional appeals and tough-sounding rhetoric. His entire career is built on his ability to tell blatant falsehoods and sound convincing while he does it. I actually enjoy Biden’s style – he is the ideal modern specimen of Senator qui absurdum est, his DNA strands traced to the very first braggadocios of Rome, clad in the toga candida, who so enjoyed interrupting the stammering Cicero. Joe, crazy uncle Joe, ended up as Vice President – can you believe it? Biden just thinks he’s lucky to be along for the ride, and he’s the best there is in politics at following the Costanza advice.”

The famous Constanza advice from Seinfeld: “It’s not a lie if you believe it.”*

 

[CaptFun]

conservativevideos.com/2012/10/leno-rips-biden-for-nearly-3-minutes/

Leno’s take on the debate It’s a HOWLER…

Lisa

Leno is great. He takes shots at both sides in fun and keeps people honest. But mostly
it’s humor for humor’s sake.

For a little partisan fun I enjoyed this one from Ray Stevens on the same page as the above link. But here’s the more direct route.

conservativevideos.com/2012/10/obama-nation-by-ray-stevens/

Is there a funny anti-Republican song out there (within the bounds of decency) we could all enjoy the wit of?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

But mostly it’s [politcal] humor for humor’s sake.

Anyone catch Jimmy Falon’s bit, Mr. Romney’s Neighborhood?

 

[CaptFun]

This from Newt Gingrich:
*Ben Domenech said it well in his recent Transcom newsletter:
“Last night Ryan ran into one of the consummate liars and demagogues of our political age in Joe Biden, a blustering boisterous blowhard of a man who careens forward, capped teeth flashing in the sun, through inaccuracies and conflations of all shapes and sizes with reassuring emotional appeals and tough-sounding rhetoric. His entire career is built on his ability to tell blatant falsehoods and sound convincing while he does it. I actually enjoy Biden’s style – he is the ideal modern specimen of Senator qui absurdum est, his DNA strands traced to the very first braggadocios of Rome, clad in the toga candida, who so enjoyed interrupting the stammering Cicero. Joe, crazy uncle Joe, ended up as Vice President – can you believe it? Biden just thinks he’s lucky to be along for the ride, and he’s the best there is in politics at following the Costanza advice.”

The famous Constanza advice from Seinfeld: “It’s not a lie if you believe it.”*

:frighten: WHOA! What a rat-a-tat deluge of adverse adjectives. As a masterpiece of detraction this has to rank up there with Cyrano de Bergerac’s sililoquy - only more devastating in that the skewered person was not fictitious …

or “The Poem” that ran on Rush Limbaugh back in 1991 … except that one devastated
the “Culture of Death” folks in politics instead of zeroing in on one guy.

freerepublic.com/~impatient/

Until now … I never knew what being NEWTered meant.

It’s a good thing Gingrich has become Catholic and has dialed back what he really thinks. :extrahappy: Ah well, just one Catholic counseling another now. All in the family. :slapfight:

 

[CaptFun]

Anyone catch Jimmy Falon’s bit, Mr. Romney’s Neighborhood?

Funny stuff. And related to the thread right? I mean Vice Presidential Candidates are related to the Presidential ones in the bit.

Romney as Mr. Rogers might even help him in some demographic somewhere. Lol.

The issues in this election are grave and the future depends upon our wise choices, but sometimes it’s fun to have a little fun in a country that doesn’t shoot its dissenters except to shoot them ballots every two years.

 

[CaptFun]

:frighten: WHOA! What a rat-a-tat deluge of adverse adjectives. As a masterpiece of detraction this has to rank up there with Cyrano de Bergerac’s sililoquy - only more devastating in that the skewered person was not fictitious …

or “The Poem” that ran on Rush Limbaugh back in 1991 … except that one devastated
the “Culture of Death” folks in politics instead of zeroing in on one guy.

freerepublic.com/~impatient/

Until now … I never knew what being NEWTered meant.

It’s a good thing Gingrich has become Catholic and has dialed back what he really thinks. :extrahappy: Ah well, just one Catholic counseling another now. All in the family. :slapfight:

I know it’s crazy to talk to yourself, but I just noticed the paragraph that skewered Biden was NOT written by Newt Gingrich but quoted by him. Ben Domeneck was the writer - the quote was from the latter’s Transcom Newsletter. Missed that fact.

 

[Christopher68]

This from Newt Gingrich:
*Ben Domenech said it well in his recent Transcom newsletter:
“Last night Ryan ran into one of the consummate liars and demagogues of our political age in Joe Biden, a blustering boisterous blowhard of a man who careens forward, capped teeth flashing in the sun, through inaccuracies and conflations of all shapes and sizes with reassuring emotional appeals and tough-sounding rhetoric. His entire career is built on his ability to tell blatant falsehoods and sound convincing while he does it. I actually enjoy Biden’s style – he is the ideal modern specimen of Senator qui absurdum est, his DNA strands traced to the very first braggadocios of Rome, clad in the toga candida, who so enjoyed interrupting the stammering Cicero. Joe, crazy uncle Joe, ended up as Vice President – can you believe it? Biden just thinks he’s lucky to be along for the ride, and he’s the best there is in politics at following the Costanza advice.”

The famous Constanza advice from Seinfeld: “It’s not a lie if you believe it.”*

Your post is uncharitable at best. I don’t think I am wrong to expect a much higher level of discourse on a Catholic forum.

 

[SuperLuigi]

This goes both ways. The Republicans united themselves in obstinate opposition to Obama IMMEDIATELY upon his inauguration. No desire to work with the President at all. I remember the post-election rhetoric quite clearly.

Irrelevant, since at that the time the D’s had a filibuster-proof Senate and a vast majority in the House.

The republicans had no power in the legislative process, and any hold-ups were because dems from conservative districts were sweating over what Reid, Pelosi and the administration were asking.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Your post is uncharitable at best. I don’t think I am wrong to expect a much higher level of discourse on a Catholic forum.

It was a quote.

Newt was not charitable.

Maybe you ought to take that up with him?

 

[CaptFun]

Your post is uncharitable at best. I don’t think I am wrong to expect a much higher level of discourse on a Catholic forum.

I didn’t take it that way. MJE was quoting a public figure quoting a published writer on another public figure in the news. Politics is rough and tumble. And as Harry Truman once said “If you can’t stand the heat … get out of the kitchen.”

Charity can be misplaced. We are vetting our candidates. One might learn a bit about both Gingrich and Biden via this post of MJEs.

Your critique was pretty short Christopher. Perhaps you might have discoursed yourself at that higher level before critiquing and signing off.

That said … we can all have our ideals set higher as you say … but maybe encourage as well as rebuke next time if that’s your feeling on the matter.

I noticed TWO things about the debate.

1. Yes, Biden was demonstrating more facial contortions than Lon Chaney Sr. in an apparent homage to Chevy Chase’s old “make faces behind the speaker …” routine. And interrupting like a Pee Wee Herman routine come to think of it.
2. But when the subject was “abortion,” Paul Ryan used the opposite tactic. A motionless death stare which Biden avoided, but which might have caused the biggest gaffe of Biden’s career. His hemming and hawing self-contradiction of how "something that shapes everything he does (his faith) … is somehow negotiable and he’d never “force it on anyone.” Yet not his POLITICAL faith one gathers.

Here’s one time the media favored the Republican (even if accidentally).

The split-screen showed Biden’s antics all the time - whereas the much less selected view of the two-shot revealed Ryan’s tactical death stare and motionless exertion of power. In split screen Ryan just looked attentive and alert, quiet and respectful in comparison to the grinning, head shaking gestures of Biden (which came off as weird when the subject was about our ambassador being killed).

While the question of “abortion” might seem to have favored Biden’s making a case against the Republicans’ alleged “War on Women,” – the moderator’s preface to the question (that both Biden and Ryan were Catholics) swung the advantage to Ryan a bit.*

Ryan struck a conservative stance on the issue - but admitted the Romney camp’s official view excepting “in the case of rape, incest or life of the mother” to IT’S pro-life agenda

The Catholic Church would only allow the third of those “options” and THAT not as deliberate killing of the baby but an unhappy side-effect of trying to save the mother and NOT BEING ABLE TO save the baby too (the ideal). Deliberate killing of a baby for any reason is always wrong. Do as much good as one can - and saving the mother in lieu of losing them both (without directly killing the baby) is an unhappy choice that could be made.

Biden’s ardent declaration of faith was given forcefully … then qualified … and finally
nullified for all intents and purposes. Ryan’s steady gaze seemed to me like a spotlight on Biden’s flank, boring in on him.

“What does it profit a man …?”

• If a person can compromise his the very things he says “shape his life” what can you depend on him to stand firm for? Ryan (in accepting the VP nominee slot) had to acknowledge that his party’s nominee has a position that differs from Church teaching on abortion as well.

And he did not say something inspired and courageous like say " … We don’t take capital punishment lightly in America, not even for those proven guilty. How much less for innocents too young to commit rape or incest. Were there trials, they’d be acquitted, or at least born without medical molestation - as all of us were."

THAT would have been something! But that something would have lost the election for the GOP perhaps (many get cranky when awakened from their slumber).

Biden made the point that Romney’s judicial picks will be informed by Judge Robert Bork.
That being the case, Romney’s pledge to end Roe v. Wade could be met - possibly with the court denying the exceptions for rape and incest.

Ryan’s depiction of the Romney position as “this should go to the states …” strikes me as a correct position (as far as it goes … which is not far). Rather like catching a minnow with a fishing fleet and being disingenuous enough to display your catch to the press as if you’ve done something significant beyond a colossal waste of time. With due respect to the damage the minnow might have done.

 

[ishii]

Your post is uncharitable at best. I don’t think I am wrong to expect a much higher level of discourse on a Catholic forum.

I think Michael Medved referred to Vice president as a “vicious and despicable piece of refuse.” Am I too uncharitable to post that? Those are not my words. If you want my take, its this: Biden, with his antics and in interrupting Ryan 82 times displayed a contempt for Ryan, and therefore a contempt and disrespect for the process itself. I can’t think of any candidate in a major party debate showing the kind of disrespect and contempt for their opponent as Biden did during the debate this past week. If he shows that kind of contempt for his opponent - then what kind of contempt and disrespect does he show for you and me?

Ishii

 

[rlg94086]

I think Michael Medved referred to Vice president as a “vicious and despicable piece of refuse.” Am I too uncharitable to post that? Those are not my words. If you want my take, its this: Biden, with his antics and in interrupting Ryan 82 times displayed a contempt for Ryan, and therefore a contempt and disrespect for the process itself. I can’t think of any candidate in a major party debate showing the kind of disrespect and contempt for their opponent as Biden did during the debate this past week. If he shows that kind of contempt for his opponent - then what kind of contempt and disrespect does he show for you and me?

Ishii

Oh, come on Ishii…Biden just has a quirky sense of humor. He finds the idea of Iran having nuclear missile capability a laugh riot. Yuck, yuck, yuck…

The fact that it played well for the Obama/Biden base, including some on CAF, shows just how base Democrats can be. They have no problem with rude and disrespectful. They’ve taken our culture there.

 

[He_Man]

Have you ever been in a real intel situation? Things often start out quite murky, and then more info comes in. The Romney camp was incompetent, anti-American, and inappropriate in their criticism of that reality that it can take a few days to figure out an event like that. If they can’t even figure out that, we can safely predict their incompetence in office.

More or less incompetent than Obama and Biden and Rice and Carney and Clinton (lots of ands) who were all apparently unable to A) Call the state department and say “what happened?” for two weeks or B) watch the video showing no protests and armed men on CNN?

Just trying to gauge the level here.

Please. Some of us actually work in defense and intel, and this is laughably bad. Stop posting as though you know anything about the situation or how these things work.

All the administration had to do was simply say “we are examining the facts.”

Instead, they made up a story and lied to the people they serve. They put a target on an American citizen for the rest of his life, and they inflamed hatred against every US citizen over wanting to win an election.

Can any Obama supporter on here defend this? I’d love to hear just one staunch Obama supporter say “this was a disgrace, and he shouldn’t have lied to us.” It shows how little credibility you have when you defend this sort of scandal.

 

[He_Man]

I agree that she did but my question remains; how many interruptions before a warning?

I would answer on the first interruption a warning should be issued.

Raddatz should never be allowed to host again. Keep cycling through these clowns until you find some that do a decent job. If you can’t be impartial or good at your job, you’re fired.

It isn’t as though she is losing her primary job; she’s just a terrible moderator. Which is too bad for her. She is apparently a decent journalist, but most people didn’t know that. Now, she’ll forever be remembered as the lady who hosted a ****** debate and let Biden bowl her over and over. Way to make your one shot at recognition fail.

It would be nice for a change if they at least pretended to have a modicum of fairness and chose a 50/50 split of moderators between conservatives and liberals, but they just throw everything over to the left.

Off the top of my head, I can picture Ifill, Lehrer, Schiefer, Brokaw, and a few others. When was the last time a known right-leaning moderator was chosen?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Raddatz should never be allowed to host again. Keep cycling through these clowns until you find some that do a decent job. If you can’t be impartial or good at your job, you’re fired.

It isn’t as though she is losing her primary job; she’s just a terrible moderator. Which is too bad for her. She is apparently a decent journalist, but most people didn’t know that. Now, she’ll forever be remembered as the lady who hosted a ****** debate and let Biden bowl her over and over. Way to make your one shot at recognition fail.

It would be nice for a change if they at least pretended to have a modicum of fairness and chose a 50/50 split of moderators between conservatives and liberals, but they just throw everything over to the left.

Off the top of my head, I can picture Ifill, Lehrer, Schiefer, Brokaw, and a few others. When was the last time a known right-leaning moderator was chosen?

How about giving the moderator ability to turn off the microphones?
In other words, some teeth.

 

[Christopher68]

I think Michael Medved referred to Vice president as a “vicious and despicable piece of refuse.” Am I too uncharitable to post that? Those are not my words. If you want my take, its this: Biden, with his antics and in interrupting Ryan 82 times displayed a contempt for Ryan, and therefore a contempt and disrespect for the process itself. I can’t think of any candidate in a major party debate showing the kind of disrespect and contempt for their opponent as Biden did during the debate this past week. If he shows that kind of contempt for his opponent - then what kind of contempt and disrespect does he show for you and me?

Ishii

I’ve never been a fan of Medved, so I personally discount what he has to say.

I have heard many republicans say that Biden’s actions were too agressive. This is a curious argument to make, considering that the last Vice President shot someone in the face!