Views on Wicca

[BlessedBe13]

“Catholic theology defines magic as the art of performing actions beyond the power of man with the aid of powers other than the Divine, and condemns it and any attempt at it as a grievous sin against the virtue of religion, because all magical performances, if undertaken seriously, are based on the expectation of interference by demons or lost souls. Even if undertaken out of curiosity the performance of a magical ceremony is sinful as it either proves a lack of faith or is a vain superstition**.”

I suppose this is the Catholic definition of magic, but it is certainly not mine. I view “spells” in two ways. Firstly, I see it as the equivilant to what Christians call “prayer”. From dictionary.com:
prayer1 http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prâr)
n.

1. 
   *]
   1. • A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship.
        *]The act of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or another object of worship.
        *]An act of communion with God, a god, or another object of worship, such as in devotion, confession, praise, or thanksgiving: One evening a week, the family would join together in prayer.
        *]A specially worded form used to address God, a god, or another object of worship.
        *]prayers A religious observance in which praying predominates: morning prayers.
        *]
        1. 
           *]A fervent request: Her prayer for rain was granted at last.
           *]The thing requested: His safe arrival was their only prayer.
           
           That is my first viewpoint of a spell.
           
           My second idea of a spell involves both a request to deity and directing my natural energy and the energy in the world around me (which is scientifically proven to exist) towards a specific intent. I don’t believe that a spell will necessarily definately cause something to happen, but that it will give extra help towards something happening.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Nothinginsecret:

Could you refer us to a source that supports these claims?

Um, the burden of proof is on the one who wishes to convert the other. Since I’m not the one who seeks converts here, I dare say I have no burden of proof.

The burden of proof is also on the innovator. Monotheism comes after polytheism, so let monotheists prove their innovation and why polytheists should leave their more traditional form of theism.

The only thing I’ll say for support is that Satan as the evil adversary of God and man and as the leader of all fallen angels is not found in the Old Testament. The idea comes from Persian Zoroastrianism. God vs Satan is just Ahura Mazda vs Angra Mainyu repackaged into monotheism. By the time the NT was written, these beliefs had become mainstream for the Jews.

 

[chrisb]

Heathen Dawn:

Um, the burden of proof is on the one who wishes to convert the other. Since IÕm not the one who seeks converts here, I dare say I have no burden of proof.

The burden of proof is also on the innovator. Monotheism comes after polytheism, so let monotheists prove their innovation and why polytheists should leave their more traditional form of theism.

Peace be with you Heathen Dawn,

I would suggest that you not categorize Monotheism as an innovation. I think that is an assumption which we as Catholics should be unwilling to afford you in your argument. If anything I would offer that primitive man turned to all things around himself and although he recognized value in them he failed to attribute that value to their ultimate source. Where is found the print of the divine in nature does not in-and-of-itself prove it’s own unique origin. This is a fallacy which stems from one’s failure to recognize the unity of all things created. As all things created are distinguished by their relationship and thus interaction with one another this is no real individuality per se and thus no polytheism, except on the lower levels of metaphysical awareness which the polytheist continues to dwell out of a rejection of global unity and an assertion of it’s individuality at the expense of one’s responsibility to the created existence.

The only thing IÕll say for support is that Satan as the evil adversary of God and man and as the leader of all fallen angels is not found in the Old Testament. The idea comes from Persian Zoroastrianism. God vs Satan is just Ahura Mazda vs Angra Mainyu repackaged into monotheism. By the time the NT was written, these beliefs had become mainstream for the Jews.

This assumes that as the Zoroastrian Metaphysics claim Satan is a equal of God and “wars” with each other over the cosmos. Unfortunately or fortunately this is not the Truth taught in Christian Tradition and that the Church never denies Truth where it is found, even, outside of itself. Where we find Truth, we find the Word of the Lord and it is not to be refuted even if it is found in Zoroastrian Metaphysical claims or even in Wiccan claims. Where we find issue is in our legitimate differences and even there we can sometimes find common ground.

Peace, Love and Blessings,

 

[rayne89]

BlessedBe13:

Part of the Wiccan rede is “harm none” - this includes oneself

Wicca’s morals as I see it, are based on respect for oneself and others and in not harming oneself or others, which I don’t see to be any “lower” than Christian morals.

I could only go by what I’ve dealt with personally. I have a question. Do Wiccans believe that abortion is ok?

 

[Nothinginsecret]

Heathen Dawn:

Um, the burden of proof is on the one who wishes to convert the other. Since I’m not the one who seeks converts here, I dare say I have no burden of proof.

I disagree with your concept of proof. You have come to a Catholic apologetics website and made outrageous claims which, so far, are backed by nothing more than your rhetoric.

I haven’t mentioned anything about conversion, but your spreading of Wiccan propaganda on a Catholic website speaks for itself.

I dare say unless you provide a source for your claims, they have no merit.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Nothinginsecret:

I disagree with your concept of proof.

Yes, just like the atheists on Internet Infidels Discussion Board do, because it’s so convenient.

but your spreading of Wiccan propaganda on a Catholic website speaks for itself.

Do you expect me to pass a thread named “Views on Wicca” in silence?

I dare say unless you provide a source for your claims, they have no merit.

Sources are irrelevant. Christians have a source for their claims—the Bible—but that doesn’t convince anyone expect those who already believe the Bible is authoritative.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

chrisb:

I would suggest that you not categorize Monotheism as an innovation.

Why not? It’s a historical fact. You go back deeper into BC and you no longer see any monotheism.

If anything I would offer that primitive man turned to all things around himself and although he recognized value in them he failed to attribute that value to their ultimate source.

I would say ancient man experienced the Gods, established relationships with Them; such was the gift from the Ultimate Source, to connect to Him through so many personal Gods and Goddesses. All I have seen Christians do to counter this claim, the claim of personal experience, is attribute the experiences to demonic deception.

As all things created are distinguished by their relationship and thus interaction with one another this is no real individuality per se and thus no polytheism, except on the lower levels of metaphysical awareness which the polytheist continues to dwell out of a rejection of global unity and an assertion of it’s individuality at the expense of one’s responsibility to the created existence.

This strikes me as dangerously close to the Buddhist claim of maya, that the world of differences and distinctions is unreal.

This assumes that as the Zoroastrian Metaphysics claim Satan is a equal of God and “wars” with each other over the cosmos.

Obviously Satan in Christianity had to be made lower than God, but notwithstanding, the parallel is astonishing. Is not Satan called “the god of this world”? Is there not a war between the Christian God and Satan over the souls of men, and people exhorted to choose the right side? If it walks like a duck, etc…

 

[Nothinginsecret]

Heathen Dawn:

Sources are irrelevant.

This is an interesting tenet. Is it Wiccan?

So far the only source you’ve presented for your beliefs is you. According to your tenet, *“sources are irrelevant,” *that would make you irrelevant. Correct?

 

[chrisb]

Heathen Dawn:

Why not? It’s a historical fact. You go back deeper into BC and you no longer see any monotheism.

Peace be with you Heathen Dawn,

I guess what I would say would be that is a historical fallacy which, unfortunately continues to plague us. There is a mantram “So above, So below” which posits the argument that what we find above we also find below and visa versa: that print of the author of life left common guidance in the heaven as well as on the earth. With this said I would argument that “we” as physical creatures don’t exist as independent organisms and thus “Spirits” don’t either. Not one physical element is with us from birth to old age that is not replace or discarded. The nutrients we ingest repair and replace every cell of our bodies every few years. What element of “you” is actually “yours”? If you have not proof in the “seen” world you have little argument for positing the distinction of independent spiritual life in the unseen world thus I argue that the notion of polytheism is a crude (i.e. false) conclusion made early on in God’s revelation of Himself to us thus who fail to recognize the interdependent nature of all things to both seen and unseen to the one uncreated creator, whom is called God, Yhwh, Allah, etc by different expressions of faith. All have this general understanding and all refute this crude conclusion that the polytheist posits. I am at a loss why you would attempt to revive such a notion except as a vehicle of distinction and thus identity which in-and-of-itself doesn’t merit reasonable consideration.

I would say ancient man experienced the Gods, established relationships with Them; such was the gift from the Ultimate Source, to connect to Him through so many personal Gods and Goddesses. All I have seen Christians do to counter this claim, the claim of personal experience, is attribute the experiences to demonic deception.

I dare say that I think you mean to say “Spirits” and not Gods, since it is part of the definition of Godhood to have independence of self outside of the self. If a thing is not it’s own source of selfhood, it is a creation and thus not actually a god but a creature. Of course it may manifest itself as physical or unphysical but a creature none-the-less. You completely dismantle your claim of polytheism by attributing the “Gods” existence to the “Ultimate Source”. I assume you don’t realize that this isn’t “polytheism” you are positing but “pantheism” which is a step in the right direction but continues to ignore the supremacy of the Creator and the ultimate hierarchy which points ultimately to one uncreated Creator, whom is called God, Yhwh, Allah, etc.

This strikes me as dangerously close to the Buddhist claim of maya, that the world of differences and distinctions is unreal.

Once again, I would suggest you to delve deeper into Buddhist and Hindu Metaphysic definition of “maya”. Maya is the substance emanated from God through which the world of form is manifested. Hence all creation is also termed “maya”. Classically, Christianity has described this emanation through God’s act of will and thus we all exist by His grace alone. I would offer you to spend sometime reading St. Augustine’s Confessions, particularly their introductions which posit the the origin of Catholic Process Philosophy, which is not dissimilar to the Eastern concept of “maya” but even this is hardly unique to the East as I have posit through example.

To Be Continued…

 

[chrisb]

Obviously Satan in Christianity had to be made lower than God, but notwithstanding, the parallel is astonishing. Is not Satan called “the god of this world”? Is there not a war between the Christian God and Satan over the souls of men, and people exhorted to choose the right side? If it walks like a duck, etc…

I guess we come to different conclusions with this example. Where you conclude parallel to mean the possibility of influence or pollution of later Metaphysical thought I conclude evidence of streams of ever surfacing revelation. As the Church is clear in teaching, she never denies Truth where she finds it and in fact is joyful when it manifests of the care and nurturing of the Holy Spirit at work.

May God bring you peace and guide you to salvation in Him. Amen.

Peace, Love and Blessings,

 

[Sowndog]

Heathen Dawn:

Of course not because of that. The reason I’m not in the grips of Satan is that he doesn’t really exist. He wouldn’t even if I thought he did.

No, Yahweh’s greatest trick is to make people believe He is the only God. And that He created the universe. And that Satan is real.

We could go on like this for ever:
Christian: “Satan is real”
Wiccan: “Is not”
Christian: “Is too”
Wiccan: “Is not”
Christian: “Is too”
Wiccan: “Is not”
Christian: “Is too”
Wiccan: “Is not”
Christian: “Is too”

Let’s grow up, nobody’s going to win here. My views on Wiccans which were once fairly positive are slowly becoming less considerate, having read your countless counter-arguments against Christian belief, which consist of little more than ‘you are wrong’. I have read little or no evidence to back up your anti-Christian sentement other than ‘I believe I am right.’

My views on Wicca:
Wicca basically is an amalgamation of the core beliefs of most religions, new and old. These faiths are reconstructed in such a way as to create a basis for morals in the easiest way possible. Wiccans focus their worship on creation, rather than worhip the creator whom they find hard to fathom. They want to believe in a higher power without any of the responsibilities that traditionally go along with it. Wicca is the morals of the modern world made spiritual.

Perfect! It would be great to be a Wiccan! It is the easy way out: All bases are covered, all gods are accounted for and there are no restrictions other than one’s own conscience. You don’t have to renounce spirituality yet you can still easily make sense of the world and do what you like. It is the ideal faith for someone who can’t commit to a faith. If if wasn’t a Christian, I’d love to be a Wiccan.

Trouble is, I am a Christian. I am a Catholic. I believe in one God, Father Almighty, creator of Heaven and Earth. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father, of one being with the Father. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life.

So you believe what you want, Wiccan, but please don’t base your defence on the idea that I am wrong: For I will simply in turn tell you that you are wrong.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Sowndog:

having read your countless counter-arguments against Christian belief, which consist of little more than ‘you are wrong’. I have read little or no evidence to back up your anti-Christian sentement other than ‘I believe I am right.’

I have personal experience that the Gods I worship are real. Your God is real too, just not the only God, and not the creator of the universe. I have a view that explains Christianity inside it. What is your view that explains Wicca inside it?

My views on Wicca:

Excellent, this is why I’m here.

Wicca basically is an amalgamation of the core beliefs of most religions, new and old.

Not “most”, in fact only a few.

These faiths are reconstructed in such a way as to create a basis for morals in the easiest way possible.

They are not reconstructed for creating a basis for morals. Wiccans never make such heavy weather of morality like Christians do (we figured out it would work best with the least verbiage). The reconstruction is for having a system to connect to the Gods that fits our day and age well.

Wiccans focus their worship on creation, rather than worhip the creator whom they find hard to fathom.

Naturally, since the creator is abstract and formless.

They want to believe in a higher power without any of the responsibilities that traditionally go along with it.

Hmmm. So I guess I should now cast a spell for the shutting down of a pagan message board that permanently banned me. But, I haven’t done that, nor will I ever do. Because I believe the higher powers (Goddess and God) would send the curse back at me.

And that’s just one example of moral responsibility.

Wicca is the morals of the modern world made spiritual.

So be it. The modern world is certainly more moral than the ancient world.

Perfect! It would be great to be a Wiccan! It is the easy way out: All bases are covered, all gods are accounted for and there are no restrictions other than one’s own conscience.

Perfect! It would be great to be a Christian! It is the easy way out: all bases are covered, the Greatest and Strongest God of Them All is accounted for (betting on the winner) and there are no restrictions once you’ve been washed by the blood of Christ.

It is the ideal faith for someone who can’t commit to a faith.

Sure, that’s why I left atheism.

If if wasn’t a Christian, I’d love to be a Wiccan.

Trouble is, I am a Christian. I am a Catholic. I believe in one God, Father Almighty, creator of Heaven and Earth. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father, of one being with the Father. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life.

I remember the joke among runners about the first marathon, at Marathon in Greece: runner #1 told runner #2 it was infinitely easier to make the 42 km with an army of pointy spears behind you. In like manner, it is very easy to be a Christian or a Muslim where there’s the eternal reward of heaven and eternal punishment of hell enclosed in the whole deal.

So you believe what you want, Wiccan, but please don’t base your defence on the idea that I am wrong: For I will simply in turn tell you that you are wrong.

I must believe your truth-claims (monotheism, hell for non-Christians etc) are wrong, else mine can’t be right, since they contradict. Religious indifferentism isn’t my game.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Nothinginsecret:

This is an interesting tenet. Is it Wiccan?

It’s simply a pointing out of the fallacy of argumentum ad verecundiam, the Argument from Authority.

So far the only source you’ve presented for your beliefs is you. According to your tenet, *“sources are irrelevant,” *that would make you irrelevant. Correct?

Correct. What matters is the arguments, not the one who makes them.

 

[Sowndog]

Heathen Dawn:

I have personal experience that the Gods I worship are real. Your God is real too, just not the only God, and not the creator of the universe. I have a view that explains Christianity inside it. What is your view that explains Wicca inside it?

I have personal experience of God. My explaination of Wicca is that it is false. I’m sorry if this seems cruelly blunt but I cannot think of a better way to phrase it.

Excellent, this is why I’m here.

They are not reconstructed for creating a basis for morals. Wiccans never make such heavy weather of morality like Christians do (we figured out it would work best with the least verbiage). The reconstruction is for having a system to connect to the Gods that fits our day and age well.

Naturally, since the creator is abstract and formless.

And that’s just one example of moral responsibility.

So be it. The modern world is certainly more moral than the ancient world.

I see you have dissected and agreed with the majority of my (biased!) views on Wicca. Thank you, for I now feel I have a decent understanding of Wicca (from a Christian perspective.)

Perfect! It would be great to be a Christian! It is the easy way out: all bases are covered, the Greatest and Strongest God of Them All is accounted for (betting on the winner) and there are no restrictions once you’ve been washed by the blood of Christ.

I understand your point, but I personally find it far from easy!

I remember the joke among runners about the first marathon, at Marathon in Greece: runner #1 told runner #2 it was infinitely easier to make the 42 km with an army of pointy spears behind you. In like manner, it is very easy to be a Christian or a Muslim where there’s the eternal reward of heaven and eternal punishment of hell enclosed in the whole deal.

My point was simply that I believe in God and Christ, so no matter how appealing it may be to give in to desires, I hold to my own faith (which often is not easy!)

I must believe your truth-claims (monotheism, hell for non-Christians etc) are wrong, else mine can’t be right, since they contradict. Religious indifferentism isn’t my game.

This goes without saying, but what I meant was that saying Christianity is wrong doesn’t make your own view right.

I thank you for your feedback, Heathen Dawn. We could go on shouting beliefs at each other but I am happy to suggest that we agree to disagree.
:tiphat:

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Sowndog:

I have personal experience of God. My explaination of Wicca is that it is false. I’m sorry if this seems cruelly blunt but I cannot think of a better way to phrase it.

The situation is Christians have personal experience of their God, and Hindus of their Gods as well. This must be explained somehow. There are a few possibilities:

1. All the Gods are real (the polytheist’s position)
2. All the experiences are illusion (the atheist’s position)
3. Other

I see you have dissected and agreed with the majority of my (biased!) views on Wicca. Thank you, for I now feel I have a decent understanding of Wicca (from a Christian perspective.)

That’s the reason, the only reason, why I’m here.

I understand your point, but I personally find it far from easy!

My point was simply that I believe in God and Christ, so no matter how appealing it may be to give in to desires, I hold to my own faith (which often is not easy!)

And my point is I don’t think there is anything wrong with being a Christian, and it is often for a far more spiritual motive than reward-punishment calculation (heaven/hell). To attribute all Christians to reward-punishment calculation would be uncharitable, and you would be justified in finding it uncalled for. But it is then of like manner to say all Wiccans are so because of the easiness of the way, freedom from accountability and kindred reasons.

Picture an atheist saying to us both, “you believe in the supernatural as a crutch and escapism from dealing with reality”. Not very nice, is it? They don’t like it when people say they’re atheists to be freed of all accountability to a higher authority, yet they do argue the motives for theists.

So, let’s stop arguing the motives.

This goes without saying, but what I meant was that saying Christianity is wrong doesn’t make your own view right.

That’s right. Could be atheism is right and then we’re both scuppered. Nah, just kidding.

I thank you for your feedback, Heathen Dawn. We could go on shouting beliefs at each other but I am happy to suggest that we agree to disagree.
:tiphat:

I thank you for your charitable attitude.

Please excuse me, all those I haven’t replied to yet. I have real-life commitments now that the academic year has started.

 

[hlgomez]

Heathen Dawn,

Have you ever came to ask yourself why are you here on earth? Where do you think you’re going?

Pio

 

[chrisb]

Peace be with you Heather Dawn,

I noticed you failed to comment on my previous posts. Although I don’t mind if you don’t I would like to know that you did read my last posts. If not perhaps I shouldn’t share my thoughts.

One thing that I am curious about is what brought you to Wicca instead of more developed wisdom traditions like Buddhism, Hinduism and the like. Do you think Wicca compares to these with regard to complexity and compleatness in addressing a whole understanding of metaphysics? Would you argue that Wicca is equal to them with regards to fostering wisdom?

Although I recognize that you appear to have an issue with authority and with claims of Truth, I don’t see how that caused you to embrace Wicca over these very ancient traditions with such a board and, I would argue, appealing practices. What disciplines are found within Wicca that foster wisdom and is there any practices of purification (i.e. renunciation) the refine the human psyche or soul to come to greater awareness of reality? Rituals are wonderful vehicles to stimulate our awareness of the unseen but is there a recognition within Wicca to prefect the practitioner?

What role does sexual intercourse play in Wicca?

Peace, Love and Blessings,

 

[BlessedBe13]

Nothinginsecret:

I haven’t mentioned anything about conversion, but your spreading of Wiccan propaganda on a Catholic website speaks for itself.

No propaganda here. Only explaining of beliefs and clearing up of misconceptions. It is also written in the Non-Catholic Forums, which the purpose of is the discussion of other beliefs that are not Catholic. I’m not sure what you expect by having a Forum with that name.

 

[BlessedBe13]

rayne89:

I could only go by what I’ve dealt with personally. I have a question. Do Wiccans believe that abortion is ok?

That is a controversial topic no matter what the religion. I am speaking for myself, but although I do not necessarily agree with abortion, I can see where it might be necessary in cases where carrying/giving birth to a child would be harmful to the mother. Possibly also in cases of rape or incest, although if the mother can physically go through the birth, adoption might be a better solution.

 

[Nothinginsecret]

Heathen Dawn:

Sources are irrelevant.

Heathen Dawn:

It’s simply a pointing out of the fallacy of argumentum ad verecundiam, the Argument from Authority.

Drawing one’s argument regarding matters that concern one’s eternal soul from thin air is fallacy.

Asking for your source is *not *an appeal to Argument from Authority. It is an attempt to ascertain whether your claims have any basis in fact, or if they are imaginary. So far, you leave us to believe the latter.