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Ric
Guest
Hi drcolter,
Welcome!
I have never claimed to be a Roman Catholic on these boards. But I am also not a fundamentalist, I am an Evangelical Christian.
If you were to look at my profile you can see that.
God Bless!
- Status
Welcome!
I have never claimed to be a Roman Catholic on these boards. But I am also not a fundamentalist, I am an Evangelical Christian.
If you were to look at my profile you can see that.
God Bless!
G
germys9
Guest
but if you read the passage closely in 1 cor 3:13 it says the work of each will (future) come to light, for the Day (capital D) will (future) disclose it. It is judgement that reveals it but the Day is when we die or the Last judgement day. It says nothing about our works being revealed while we are still on earth. Also, notice how the fire is portrayed as something that destroys and purifies. And I still can’t help but notice no response to Hebrews 12.
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Ric
Guest
Can you find an example where something is “tested” after death in the Scriptures? The Bible only says that there will be judgement after death.
As for Hebrews 12, I’ll go check it out.
G
germys9
Guest
if you go back and read 1 cor 3:12-15, *slowly once or twice, *you will see that Paul is talking about Christian ministers (although it applies to us as well) and that their works will come to light on the Day. It then says how they will come to light. revealed by fire and then tested by the fire. seems pretty clear to me. the judgement and the test coincide with one another, if in fact they are not a simultaneous action.
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Ric
Guest
I don’t understand where you can get purgatory out of Hebrews 12:14? Holiness means “to be set apart” and all Christians are “set apart”. If one is not a Christian then the one is not “set apart” (or holy).
Once again I don’t understand where you can get purgatory out of this passage? This passage is about the “Judge” (God), and He makes peope perfect. The “assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven” are the ones whom have their names already written in Heaven (the saved).
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germys9
Guest
Ric,
It’s getting late but I think I have showed you from the Bible why I believe in Purgatory. Besides that I have proof catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp
that the doctrine existed from the beginning. It’s kind of funny how for 1600 years this was accepted by christians and not until the reformation it was denied. I’ll stick with my bible passages and the history of christianity in the one true church.
God Bless You and goodnight.
I’ll say a prayer for you tonight. Peace and love in Christ.
It’s getting late but I think I have showed you from the Bible why I believe in Purgatory. Besides that I have proof catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp
that the doctrine existed from the beginning. It’s kind of funny how for 1600 years this was accepted by christians and not until the reformation it was denied. I’ll stick with my bible passages and the history of christianity in the one true church.
God Bless You and goodnight.
I’ll say a prayer for you tonight. Peace and love in Christ.
R
Ric
Guest
Once again it’s the man’s works and not the man himself being revealed and tested by fire.
**Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. **
(1 Corinthians 3:12-15 ESV)
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germys9
Guest
God does make them perfect - but, when, where, and how, are spirits of just men made perfect? If you take the term spirits as something refering to the souls of men who are on earth, then it would not make sense with your theology. If they are already just men, with your line of thinking, then they are already perfect in Christ as you said earlier. God would not need to make them perfect if they are already just men and therefore hidden in Christ’s perfection.
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Ric
Guest
The dogma of purgatory is rooted very well in Roman Catholicism, but I can also site many of the Church fathers whom believed in no such thing as purgatory (one example given below from Clement of Rome).
I really thank you for your effort in showing me where purgatory might be possiable, but I just can’t fine it in God’s Word. If it were ever proven to me from God’s Word I would join the Roman Catholic church in a heartbeat!
Thanks for the prayer, I need it always! And you too will be in my prayers!
God Bless!
First Clement said:
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RodK
Guest
Ric,
I for one certainly appreciate your comments. I will remember you in my prayers and I hope that you will do likewise. I’d like to briefly make a few points regarding Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 3:
[10] According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, [11] for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. [12] If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, [13] the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. [14] If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. [15] But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
Certainly, a man’s works – if not built on the solid foundation of our Lord Jesus Christ will be burned up (vv. 12 – 14). But Paul goes on to say that such a person who falsely builds on such a foundation will himself “be saved, but only as through fire” (v. 15). That entails some type of purification after death does it not?
Consider the point further. Would you argue that “the Day” (v. 13) – capital “D” we note – is the Judgment Day? Build on a solid foundation and “receive a wage” Paul says (v. 14). But build on a foundation that is not solid and you can still be saved, but you will “suffer a loss” (v. 15). But how does one “suffer a loss” if he is already in the life to come?
After all, if I were so blessed as to be the very least of those to enter into heaven – and I pray fervently on the matter every day
– if the Lord made me nothing more than a footstool for the angels, I would truly be happy all the days of my life. There would be no loss, for I would be with Him. Even as the least of those to enter heaven, where is the loss?
According to Paul, do you receive your “wage” for faithful and true service here on earth or in the afterlife? The answer to that question is the answer to the corollary case. If he who builds on the solid foundation receives his “wage” in the afterlife, then here too is where one who builds not on solid ground is made to “suffer a loss”.
Ultimately I take great comfort in these words from Paul. Regardless of whether or not they reveal Purgatory, they do entail a great sense of hope for us all. To some varying degree, we will all build on false foundations. Ironically perhaps, we do so here by either espousing or denying Purgatory. But though we diverge from God in both small matters and large, as long as we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, we have hope of salvation through Him.
Thank you again for your words. I sincerely enjoy the opportunity to exchange ideas with not only other Catholics but our Protestant brothers and sisters as well. For it is only in such exchanges that ignorant people like myself can learn new things.
My God bless you and yours.
-Rodney
I for one certainly appreciate your comments. I will remember you in my prayers and I hope that you will do likewise. I’d like to briefly make a few points regarding Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 3:
[10] According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, [11] for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. [12] If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, [13] the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. [14] If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. [15] But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
Certainly, a man’s works – if not built on the solid foundation of our Lord Jesus Christ will be burned up (vv. 12 – 14). But Paul goes on to say that such a person who falsely builds on such a foundation will himself “be saved, but only as through fire” (v. 15). That entails some type of purification after death does it not?
Consider the point further. Would you argue that “the Day” (v. 13) – capital “D” we note – is the Judgment Day? Build on a solid foundation and “receive a wage” Paul says (v. 14). But build on a foundation that is not solid and you can still be saved, but you will “suffer a loss” (v. 15). But how does one “suffer a loss” if he is already in the life to come?
After all, if I were so blessed as to be the very least of those to enter into heaven – and I pray fervently on the matter every day
– if the Lord made me nothing more than a footstool for the angels, I would truly be happy all the days of my life. There would be no loss, for I would be with Him. Even as the least of those to enter heaven, where is the loss?According to Paul, do you receive your “wage” for faithful and true service here on earth or in the afterlife? The answer to that question is the answer to the corollary case. If he who builds on the solid foundation receives his “wage” in the afterlife, then here too is where one who builds not on solid ground is made to “suffer a loss”.
Ultimately I take great comfort in these words from Paul. Regardless of whether or not they reveal Purgatory, they do entail a great sense of hope for us all. To some varying degree, we will all build on false foundations. Ironically perhaps, we do so here by either espousing or denying Purgatory. But though we diverge from God in both small matters and large, as long as we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, we have hope of salvation through Him.
Thank you again for your words. I sincerely enjoy the opportunity to exchange ideas with not only other Catholics but our Protestant brothers and sisters as well. For it is only in such exchanges that ignorant people like myself can learn new things.
My God bless you and yours.
-Rodney
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agname
Guest
The entire faith alone scenario has been going around for awhile. Basically, Luther had a trouble with verses such as “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)” This really infuriated him. He wanted to remove James along with the other seven books…but was talked out of it. In Romans 3:28 it read, “For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.”, etc. etc. Luther decided that “works of law” was in reference to the laws of the Old Testament, including the Ten Commandments. The interesting thing is that when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered…they supported the Catholic belief that “works of law” …or in Greek “ergon nomou” refers to ceremonial law handed out in the Old Testament…not to the Ten Commandments ala Moral Law. Luther also inserted “alone” in Romans 3:28…to read, “man is justified by faith alone.” We (Roman Catholics) don’t believe in absolute assurance of salvation – “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven” (Matt 7:21). Scripture shows that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus says, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matthew 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). So basically, one who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell. That’s the basic summary…as to the history of faith alone…and as to what we believe…that you have to have both…faith and works…as shown through those passages…and there is never absolute assurance…it’s an ongoing process until the end.Well I can say that I am perfect enough to go straight to Heaven no questions asked if I were to die tonight. But keep in mind that it’s not my perfection - but it’s Christ’s perfection covering me to the point where Jesus can and will state to the Father that “I know Ric” and He will let me in Heaven. Remember that Jesus is our mediator - and that has more to do than being a mediator of prayer - He is also my advocate between me and the Father and on the bases of His perfection I am allowed into Heaven. How can one suffer a mythical place of purgatory when we are covered by Christ’s own blood? Christ is perfect and on that bases we are allowed into Heaven!
Praise Jesus!
(Continued to next post)
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agname
Guest
(Part II)
But…it gets a bit more complicated…if you consider various scenarios…you can go further and break salvation down and one’s ultimate fate…down to those 1) Who have heard the Gospel and rejected it. 2) Who have heard the Gospel, agreed with it, but never formally saved. 3) Who have never heard of the Gospel, Jesus or Christianity…all can be supported by theological axioms and apothegms…supported by scripture, etc. I pretty much agree with the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council…when it said “The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church.” For instance, Luke 12:47 “And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. 48 But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required. . .” …and 1 Timothy 1:12 “I thank him who has given me strength for this, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful by appointing me to his service, 13 though I formerly blasphemed and persecuted and insulted him; but I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.” The correlation between one’s guilt…to one’s knowledge of God also occurs in Matthew 11:20-24; 12:45. In Romans 2, Paul explains that everyone has access to the law through his or her heart, and people can find salvation by following God in that way and seeking the truth – Romans 2:6 “For [God] will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality. 12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.”
But…it gets a bit more complicated…if you consider various scenarios…you can go further and break salvation down and one’s ultimate fate…down to those 1) Who have heard the Gospel and rejected it. 2) Who have heard the Gospel, agreed with it, but never formally saved. 3) Who have never heard of the Gospel, Jesus or Christianity…all can be supported by theological axioms and apothegms…supported by scripture, etc. I pretty much agree with the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council…when it said “The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church.” For instance, Luke 12:47 “And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. 48 But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required. . .” …and 1 Timothy 1:12 “I thank him who has given me strength for this, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful by appointing me to his service, 13 though I formerly blasphemed and persecuted and insulted him; but I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.” The correlation between one’s guilt…to one’s knowledge of God also occurs in Matthew 11:20-24; 12:45. In Romans 2, Paul explains that everyone has access to the law through his or her heart, and people can find salvation by following God in that way and seeking the truth – Romans 2:6 “For [God] will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality. 12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.”
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agname
Guest
Purgatory…
2 Maccabees 12:43-46:
43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. 46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
Matthew 12:32-36:
32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come. 33 Either make the tree good and its fruit good: or make the tree evil, and its fruit evil. For by the fruit the tree is known. 34 O generation of vipers, how can you speak good things, whereas you are evil? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of a good treasure bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of an evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment
Luke 12:59:
I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence until thou pay the very last mite.
Something to consider…
Why did St. Paul pray for a dead friend (Onesiphorus), if there is no Purgatory? (See: 2 Timothy 1:16-18)
Finally, I recommend you to read:
catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp
That is…if you seek truth.
2 Maccabees 12:43-46:
43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. 46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
Matthew 12:32-36:
32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come. 33 Either make the tree good and its fruit good: or make the tree evil, and its fruit evil. For by the fruit the tree is known. 34 O generation of vipers, how can you speak good things, whereas you are evil? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of a good treasure bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of an evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment
Luke 12:59:
I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence until thou pay the very last mite.
Something to consider…
Why did St. Paul pray for a dead friend (Onesiphorus), if there is no Purgatory? (See: 2 Timothy 1:16-18)
Finally, I recommend you to read:
catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp
That is…if you seek truth.
A
agname
Guest
Ric,
Also…do you believe in the Trinity? If you do…show me in the Bible…where the Trinity is mentioned by name.
Also…do you believe in the Trinity? If you do…show me in the Bible…where the Trinity is mentioned by name.
M
mjdonnelly
Guest
A
agname
Guest
Indeed…my point is that the Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible specifically by name…but, this belief was indeed passed down…by our Apostolic Fathers, etc.
S
system
Guest
Christina Gallagher describes the departure of the soul from the body, believe her or not.
As soon as the soul quits the body it sees the light of Heaven, and tries to fly towards it, but it realises that the pain of entering Heaven is too much to bear, so it flys to Purgatory to be cleansed, as it’s easier to go to hell with sin on your soul than it is to suffer the pain of entering Heaven with the least sin.
Christina says that God sends no-one to hell,we do that ourselves by the life we lead.
I think Saint luke said that we will not get out of there until we have paid the last penny, now he couldn’t have been talking about hell. as out of there the Bible says there is no redemtion.
As soon as the soul quits the body it sees the light of Heaven, and tries to fly towards it, but it realises that the pain of entering Heaven is too much to bear, so it flys to Purgatory to be cleansed, as it’s easier to go to hell with sin on your soul than it is to suffer the pain of entering Heaven with the least sin.
Christina says that God sends no-one to hell,we do that ourselves by the life we lead.
I think Saint luke said that we will not get out of there until we have paid the last penny, now he couldn’t have been talking about hell. as out of there the Bible says there is no redemtion.
G
germys9
Guest
Ric,
I am not saying that every christian must go to purgatory before entering heaven. So in Clements’ letters when talking about Peter and Paul, it’s fair to say that he speaking generally. I mean I could say that when Pope JPII he will go to heaven and be freed from any suffering here on earth. But I wouldn’t have to say that I think he will go to heaven only after going to purgatory. There is no need when writing a letter to mention that he thinks that Peter and Paul must go to purgatory first. Also notice that at the end of your quote, he says that the people were perfected in love after they died and then they possesed life. And not a good enough answer for Hebrew 12.
D
drcolter
Guest
Ric, you wrote "
I really thank you for your effort in showing me where purgatory might be
possiable, but I just can’t fine it in God’s Word. If it were ever proven to me
from God’s Word I would join the Roman Catholic church in a heartbeat!
It is important to remember that the word of God is Jesus, the living Jesus, not just a book. The bible is important, but the word of God does not stop there.
I really thank you for your effort in showing me where purgatory might be
possiable, but I just can’t fine it in God’s Word. If it were ever proven to me
from God’s Word I would join the Roman Catholic church in a heartbeat!
It is important to remember that the word of God is Jesus, the living Jesus, not just a book. The bible is important, but the word of God does not stop there.
C
Charles
Guest
Sometimes people have trouble with the idea of purgatory because they can not accept the idea of a place in the hereafter other than Heaven or hell. It helps to remember what is written in one of the books of Peter ( I Peter 1:7 I think but my bible is upstairs right now). He mentions that between the time He was crucufied and ressurected Christ decended to a place where he could witness to those already dead.
Ric mentioned the parable of Lazarus earlier and based on that parable Christ would seem to be indicating that he would not save those already in hell. Also, it seems unlikely that people in Heaven (like Elijah and Moses?) would have need of Christ’s witness. Therefore a third “place” is suggested. There is indeed no reason to assume that the place referred to by Peter is purgatory. However, it does open the Biblical door to the idea that people have existed in places created by God that were neither Heaven, hell, or earth.
An earlier poster mentioned the prayers to the dead in 2 Maccabees (I think). This is an excellent reference for Catholics who may have trouble with the concept of Purgatory. After all, what good will our prayers do for those in hell (remember the parable of Lazarus) or Heaven (we should be asking them to pray for us!)? Unfortunately, our Protestant friends don’t accept that Maccabees are canonical since they were removed from Jewish cannon in the 1st century AD (possibly because the Jewish nation did not approve of the positive allusions to Rome in those books after what happened to their temple at the hand of the legions).
Even if they don’t want to accept Maccabees as inspired, though, it is still a useful reference to use with Protestants as it does provide a good source for the beliefs of the Jews prior to the birth of Christ.
Ric mentioned the parable of Lazarus earlier and based on that parable Christ would seem to be indicating that he would not save those already in hell. Also, it seems unlikely that people in Heaven (like Elijah and Moses?) would have need of Christ’s witness. Therefore a third “place” is suggested. There is indeed no reason to assume that the place referred to by Peter is purgatory. However, it does open the Biblical door to the idea that people have existed in places created by God that were neither Heaven, hell, or earth.
An earlier poster mentioned the prayers to the dead in 2 Maccabees (I think). This is an excellent reference for Catholics who may have trouble with the concept of Purgatory. After all, what good will our prayers do for those in hell (remember the parable of Lazarus) or Heaven (we should be asking them to pray for us!)? Unfortunately, our Protestant friends don’t accept that Maccabees are canonical since they were removed from Jewish cannon in the 1st century AD (possibly because the Jewish nation did not approve of the positive allusions to Rome in those books after what happened to their temple at the hand of the legions).
Even if they don’t want to accept Maccabees as inspired, though, it is still a useful reference to use with Protestants as it does provide a good source for the beliefs of the Jews prior to the birth of Christ.
- Status