Visions of Purgatory

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germys9:
Ric,

I am not saying that every christian must go to purgatory before entering heaven. So in Clements’ letters when talking about Peter and Paul, it’s fair to say that he speaking generally. I mean I could say that when Pope JPII he will go to heaven and be freed from any suffering here on earth. But I wouldn’t have to say that I think he will go to heaven only after going to purgatory. There is no need when writing a letter to mention that he thinks that Peter and Paul must go to purgatory first. Also notice that at the end of your quote, he says that the people were perfected in love after they died and then they possesed life. And not a good enough answer for Hebrew 12.
Clement of Rome always refers to deceased Christians being in Heaven. He repeatedly mentions the concept, with no reference to purgatory. It is true that the Roman Catholic church believes that some Christians don’t have to go to purgatory, but Clement had no concept of purgatory.
 
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agname:
Ric,

Also…do you believe in the Trinity? If you do…show me in the Bible…where the Trinity is mentioned by name.
Sorry agname,

But that won’t fly. The Trinity is clearly spelled out in the Scriptures even thou the actual word “Trinity” is not written on the pages. Remember is a past post in this thread I stated that purgatory is not found in the Bible and not even a hint? The concept of purgatory can not even be gleaned from the pages of Scripture - it must be added to Scripture by mere man made Traditions and other means that is not of God.
 
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Ric:
Clement of Rome always refers to deceased Christians being in Heaven. He repeatedly mentions the concept, with no reference to purgatory. It is true that the Roman Catholic church believes that some Christians don’t have to go to purgatory, but Clement had no concept of purgatory.
how can you quote a pope and use his quote against his church?

where and when are spirits of just men made perfect? Do you believe in punishment for our sins and if so, when are we punished? just curious about your point of view?
 
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Ric:
Sorry agname,

But that won’t fly. The Trinity is clearly spelled out in the Scriptures even thou the actual word “Trinity” is not written on the pages. Remember is a past post in this thread I stated that purgatory is not found in the Bible and not even a hint? The concept of purgatory can not even be gleaned from the pages of Scripture - it must be added to Scripture by mere man made Traditions and other means that is not of God.
Are you telling me that if you read the new testament with no previous christian instruction, you would have come up with the doctrine of the trinity exactly as it is taught today. Even though it took the first christians over one hundred years to formally define it has it developed over time.
 
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germys9:
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Ric:
Clement of Rome always refers to deceased Christians being in Heaven. He repeatedly mentions the concept, with no reference to purgatory. It is true that the Roman Catholic church believes that some Christians don’t have to go to purgatory, but Clement had no concept of purgatory.
how can you quote a pope and use his quote against his church?

where and when are spirits of just men made perfect? Do you believe in punishment for our sins and if so, when are we punished? just curious about your point of view?
I’m sorry you think that is what I have done, but to tell you the truth it’s the facts of history. 👍
 
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Ric:
Well I can say that I am perfect enough to go straight to Heaven no questions asked if I were to die tonight.👍
Beware, Ric, that you not fall. As Jesus said to those He healed: “Go and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you.”

1 Cor 3:15 “But if someone’s worked is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved,** but only as through fire.”**

Fire = Purgatory!

The souls in Purgatory are Heaven bound…after they have paid the last penny!

God bless you
 
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germys9:
Are you telling me that if you read the new testament with no previous christian instruction, you would have come up with the doctrine of the trinity exactly as it is taught today. Even though it took the first christians over one hundred years to formally define it has it developed over time.
Yes, are you saying that you can not? I can find in both the OT and the NT how the Trinity is implied. And I had a working understanding of the Trinity before I was ever “churched”.
 
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MIDGIE:
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Ric:
Well I can say that I am perfect enough to go straight to Heaven no questions asked if I were to die tonight. 👍
Beware, Ric, that you not fall. As Jesus said to those He healed: “Go and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you.”

1 Cor 3:15 “But if someone’s worked is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved,** but only as through fire**.”

Fire = Purgatory!

The souls in Purgatory are Heaven bound…after they have paid the last penny!

God bless you
Hey MIDGIE,

Thanks for tyaking my quote out of it’s context. Let me remind you what I said in it’s proper context.
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Ric:
Well I can say that I am perfect enough to go straight to Heaven no questions asked if I were to die tonight. But keep in mind that it’s not my perfection - but it’s Christ’s perfection covering me to the point where Jesus can and will state to the Father that “I know Ric” and He will let me in Heaven. Remember that Jesus is our mediator - and that has more to do than being a mediator of prayer - He is also my advocate between me and the Father and on the bases of His perfection I am allowed into Heaven. How can one suffer a mythical place of purgatory when we are covered by Christ’s own blood? Christ is perfect and on that bases we are allowed into Heaven!

Praise Jesus! 👍
And as for the fire from 1 Corinthians 3:15, remember the one’s works are burned up and not the one.

And also remember that Jesus paid that last penny so I (and you) would not haft to!
 
Just a question from a novice, if there were only Heaven or Hell, why would the Jewish people pray for the dead, as is found in Maccabees? There is no need to pray for a soul in Heaven and prayer for a soul in Hell is of no use. I also wonder about Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek). In the gospel, when Jesus spoke of hell he refered to Gehenna. Where does that leave Hades which my bible dictionary calls the abode of the dead? Sounds like a third place to me. I would also like to relate a story that reminded me of purgatory.

I had a close friend who commited a misdemeanor. He was a Lutheran brother in Christ. He asked for forgiveness of God, although I would rather he went to Confession but that is another thread, and stood trial and was convicted. His lawyer told him he would not get jail time because the judge he was before had never given jail time to other offenders who did the same crime. When he was brought before this judge for sentencing he recieved jail time! for the first time this judge decided to give the jail time. My friend spent every night and all weekends in jail. He still worked and saw his family. To me this spells out the Lords justice and purgatory perfectly. The sin was committed, forgiven, then the soul underwent his purgatory now instead of after death.

Anyway just some thoughts.
 
Many times has Mt 5:26 been quoted. Here is the whole passage:
But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
23 Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, 24 leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny. Ric has said Jesus paid the last penny.
Jesus knew He was giving His life for our sins so this statement makes no sense if He is paying the last penny. Why would he alude to this if it were going to paid by Him. Just doesn’t make sense to me. We all still have a temporal cost to pay for our sins.Hope I’m not confusing this further.
 
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Ric:
And as for the fire from 1 Corinthians 3:15, remember the one’s works are burned up and not the one.
“…the person will be saved,** but only as through fire.”**

It sounds to me as though it is saying the person will be saved…but only as through fire. Fire - Purgatory. Do notice the semi-colon between the first and second part of the sentence. It is not the works that go through fire, but the person.

God bless you
 
MIDGIE said:
"…the person will be saved,** but only as through fire**."

It sounds to me as though it is saying the person will be saved…but only as through fire. Fire - Purgatory. Do notice the semi-colon between the first and second part of the sentence. It is not the works that go through fire, but the person.

God bless you

You really need to understand what is being said in this passage from Scripture. Those Christians whose works stand the test of fire (1 Peter 1:7) will be rewarded (Matthew 25:14-30; Luke 19:11-27). Those whose works are consumed by the fire will themselves escape the flames (as if they were jumping out of the burning wooden structure they had built) and be saved, but without any works of praise to present to Christ. They are not burned - only their works.
 
Ric, it seems to me that what Protestants do not realize is that Jesus has not left us here orphans. He’s been speaking to the Church through the lives of the Saints since His Resurrection…no differently than He did to St. Peter through the dream of the sheet coming down from Heaven or when He spoke to Ananias about Saul being blind.

"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."

The writings of the Saints who the Lord chose throughout Christianity expound on many of the Scriptures that are not clear at first glance. The Church is the pillar and ground of God’s Truth in this world, so you would do well to listen to what She teaches and not lean unto your own understanding. Read the writings of the Saints to fill in the blanks of your understanding. You’ll notice many of the footnotes in the Catechism are from the writings of Saints. After all, God did set some in the Church as Apostles, Prophets, and Teachers for a reason. A great many of the Saints in the Church throughout Christianity have been in direct communication with Jesus Christ Himself! Read up on the Mystics of the Catholic Church and grow in knowledge and perfection in the Lord.

God bless you
 
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convertmjh:
As a Protestant converting to Catholicism, purgatory has been the hardest doctrine to deal with. The doctrine of purgatory makes perfectly good sense to me however I struggle with the private revelations of the saints. The saints describe purgatory as a firery dungeon rather than the vestibule of heaven. Do we take these private revelations word for word and is there literal fire in purgatory? Instead of being comforted to know that there is a place/process to finish the work on my character after I die, I am terrified of purgatory and the punishments it entails.
You may find comfort in reading this book:

Purgatory–Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints

You can read some reviews of the book at the above site.

God bless you
 
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Ric:
Yes, are you saying that you can not? I can find in both the OT and the NT how the Trinity is implied. And I had a working understanding of the Trinity before I was ever “churched”.
Well good for you. However, the fact remains that it took those taught by the apostles themselves and their direct successors to understand the doctrine more fully only as it developed over time.
 
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Ric:
You really need to understand what is being said in this passage from Scripture. Those Christians whose works stand the test of fire (1 Peter 1:7) will be rewarded (Matthew 25:14-30; Luke 19:11-27). Those whose works are consumed by the fire will themselves escape the flames (as if they were jumping out of the burning wooden structure they had built) and be saved, but without any works of praise to present to Christ. They are not burned - only their works.
Even if we take your fallible interpretation, the works are still tested after one dies, because it is after that one is judged. If the one goes straight to heaven (because he is saved) that implies that his unclean works went with him and then were burned up. However, nothing unclean will enter heaven. Another point - you can not argue that you win the case. The best you can do is tie. Aren’t we (according to your theology) given the right to have our own interpretation of these passages? We obviously read them differently, but why do you assume that your interpretation is better than ours. One last point. I truly think that a prejudice against the Catholic faith has kept you from reading these passages with an open mind to find truth. Are you truly seeking to know the truth, which is Jesus (John 14:6) no matter where it might lead you?

And please give me a good answer of how, when, or where the spirits of just men are made perfect.
 
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Ric:
Clement of Rome always refers to deceased Christians being in Heaven. He repeatedly mentions the concept, with no reference to purgatory. It is true that the Roman Catholic church believes that some Christians don’t have to go to purgatory, but Clement had no concept of purgatory.
Read…

Purgatory

“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shaft have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just.”
Acts of Paul and Thecla(A.D. 160),in ANF,VIII:490

“Abercius by name, I am a disciple of the chaste shepherd…He taught me … faithful writings…These words,I, Abercius, standing by, ordered to be inscribed.In truth, I was in the course of my seventy-second year. Let him who understands and believes this pray fro Abercius.”
Inscription of Abercius(A.D. 190),in PAT,I:172

“Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid colour, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age? who died miserably with disease…But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birth-day of Gets Caesar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me.Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy’s navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water; and Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment.”
The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitias,2:3-4(A.D. 202),in ANF,III:701-702

“Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more–not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness.”
Clement of Alexandria,Stromata,6:14(post A.D. 202),in ANF,II:504

“[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense…Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term ‘adversary’ to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord’s) injunction, while you are in the way with him,'to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as ‘the accuser of the brethren,’ or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?”
Tertullian,A Treatise on the Soul,35(A.D. 210),in ANF,III:216

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“All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? (It is true, whether) you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich…Moreover, the soul executes not all its operations with the ministration of the flesh; for the judgment of God pursues even simple cogitations and the merest volitions. ‘Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.’ Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. In short, inasmuch as we understand ‘the prison’ pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret ‘the uttermost farthing’ to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides.”
Tertullian,A Treatise on the Soul,58(A.D. 210),in ANF,III:234-235

“As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours.”
Tertullian,The Chaplut,3(A.D. 211),in ANF,III:94

“[A] woman is more bound when her husband is dead…Indeed,she prays for his soul,and requests refreshment for him meanwhie, and fellowship(with him) in the first resurrection;and she offers(her sacrifice) on the anniversary of his falling asleep.”
Tertullian,On Monogamy,10(A.D. 216),in ANF,III:66-67

“For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones(1 Cor.,3);but also wood and hay and stubble,what do you expect when the soul shall be seperated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God;or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials;for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature,but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble.It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our trangressions and then returns to us the rewardof our great works.”
Origen,Homilies on Jeremias,PG 13:445,448(A.D. 244),in CE,577

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“And do not think, dearest brother, that either the courage of the brethren will be lessened, or that martyrdoms will fail for this cause, that repentance is relaxed to the lapsed, and that the hope of peace is offered to the penitent. The strength of the truly believing remains unshaken; and with those who fear and love God with their whole heart, their integrity continues steady and strong. For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord.”
Cyprian,To Antonianus,Epistle 51(55):20(A.D. 253),in ANF,V:332

“Let us pray for our brethren that are at rest in Christ, that God, the lover of mankind, who has received his soul, may forgive him every sin, voluntary and involuntary, and may be merciful and gracious to him, and give him his lot in the land of the pious that are sent into the bosom of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, with all those that have pleased Him and done His will from the beginning of the world, whence all sorrow, grief, and lamentation are banished.”
Apostolic Constitutions,8:4,41(3rd Century),in ANF,VII:497

“The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment: which the poets transferred to the vulture of Tityus. Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire. Then they whose sins shall exceed either in weight or in number, shall be scorched by the fire and burnt: but they whom full justice and maturity of virtue has imbued will not perceive that fire; for they have something of God in themselves which repels and rejects the violence of the flame.”
Lactantius,The Divine Institutes,7:21(A.D. 307),in ANF,VII:217

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"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth. And I wish to persuade you by an illustration. For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him of-fence, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.
Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,23:9,10(c.A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:154-155

“I think that the noble athletes of God,who have wrestled all their lives with the invisble enemies,after they have escaped all of their persecutions and have come to the end of life,are examined by the prince of this world;and if they are found to have any wounds from their wrestling,any stains or effects of sin,they are detained.If,however they are found unwounded and without stain,they are, as unconquered,brought by Christ into their rest.”
Basil,Homilies on the Psalms,7:2(ante A.D. 370),in JUR,II:21

“Lay me not with sweet spices: for this honour avails me not; Nor yet incense and perfumes: for the honour benefits me not. Burn sweet spices in the Holy Place: and me, even me, conduct to the grave with prayer. Give ye incense to God: and over me send up hymns. Instead of perfumes of spices: in prayer make remembrance of me.”
Ephraem,His Testament(ante A.D. 373),in NPNF2,in XIII:135

“Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their behalf…it is useful,because in this world we often stumble either voluntarily or involuntarily.”
Epiphanius,Panarion,75:8(A.D. 375),in JUR,II:76

“When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil.”
Gregory of Nyssa,Sermon on the Dead,PG 13:445,448(ante A.D. 394),in CE,577

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