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- Status
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system
Guest
ric,
You miss the point of the 2 Maccabees passage. It is, as you said, about idolatry; however, it is also about praying for the dead. It is not a direct passage about purgatory itself, rather it describes the use of prayer for the dead.
If everyone who dies either goes to Heaven or Hell, then there would be no need for prayers for the dead, which supports the Church’s interpretation that prayers for the dead must be of use for those who have died.
Prayers for those in Hell do no good, prayers for those already in Heaven would do not good either…therefore, there MUST be a third state or place where souls go or else the prayers for the dead are meaningless. Nothing in Scripture is meaningless.
That third place is a place of purification as Scripture strongly implies.
You miss the point of the 2 Maccabees passage. It is, as you said, about idolatry; however, it is also about praying for the dead. It is not a direct passage about purgatory itself, rather it describes the use of prayer for the dead.
If everyone who dies either goes to Heaven or Hell, then there would be no need for prayers for the dead, which supports the Church’s interpretation that prayers for the dead must be of use for those who have died.
Prayers for those in Hell do no good, prayers for those already in Heaven would do not good either…therefore, there MUST be a third state or place where souls go or else the prayers for the dead are meaningless. Nothing in Scripture is meaningless.
That third place is a place of purification as Scripture strongly implies.
D
Des
Guest
You’re trying to say that you never heard of the word Trinity before in your life? That by reading the bible you came up with it all by yourself? That without any outside assistance you actually understood that there were three Persons in one God from reading your bible? I somehow doubt that and believe on the contrary that the oral traditions and explanations of the word Trinity was already in your head before you ever picked up your Bible or while you were first studying it.
S
system
Guest
To all,
Here, in my opinion, is a very important point. If purgatory exists as the Church teaches (and I certainly believe that the Church is correct), and if prayers can help those souls in purgatory as the Church teaches (and I certainly believe that the Church is correct), then we should “want” to pray for those souls so that their time in purgatory might be shortened.
Here, in my opinion, is a very important point. If purgatory exists as the Church teaches (and I certainly believe that the Church is correct), and if prayers can help those souls in purgatory as the Church teaches (and I certainly believe that the Church is correct), then we should “want” to pray for those souls so that their time in purgatory might be shortened.
J
Jeff_B
Guest
I think, at least some, Protestants wouldn’t have all that
much of a problem with at least the concept of Purgatory
in light of 1 Cor 3:15, as much as the concept of
having the ability to ‘reduce’ the ‘sentence’
by praying and especially paying indulgences.
Jeff
much of a problem with at least the concept of Purgatory
in light of 1 Cor 3:15, as much as the concept of
having the ability to ‘reduce’ the ‘sentence’
by praying and especially paying indulgences.
Jeff
O
Ontario
Guest
You are correct Ric in that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. Amen. But condemnation would mean going to hell. Instead, try to think of purgatory as a cleansing fire that those of us in Christ may pass through before entering heaven. Nothing unclean may enter heaven.
When my daughter split her chin open when she was a toddler we had to take her to the hospital for stitches. They put her in a straight jacket and I helped the nurse steady her, while my wife held her head still and tried to confort her. The doctor froze her chin and gave her some stitches. All the while she was screaming!
However, ultimately it was for her benefit and even as a toddler I think she new she had to go through it and trusted her mom and I in putting her through the hospital visit.
I think of purgatory in a similar way.
When we die most of us have some attachment to sin. Before entering heaven we must be cleaned up.
J
jkmcl
Guest
Just a few quotes from the Bible to back up the purgatory argument. Although, all passages are from the Bible, I found them in a book called “The Rosary for the Holy Souls in Purgatory” by Susan Tassone.
“The Lord your God is a devouring fire.” Deut.4:24
“God has not called us for uncleanness, but in holiness.” 1 Thess 4:7
“Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.” Psalm 51:2
“Everyone will be salted with fire.” Mark 9:49
“Nothing unclean shall enter it.” Rev 21:27
“If the righteous man is scarcely saved, where will the impious and the sinner appear?” 1 Peter 4:18
My favorite “He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present the right offerings to the Lord.” Malachi 3:5
“You may have to suffer various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” 1 Peter 1:6-7
“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48
“The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.” Psalm 51:17
“As for you also, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will set your captives free from the waterless pit.” Zecharaiah 9:11 Where are these souls being released from??? They have no need to be released from Heaven…Hell is for eternity. What pit are these souls being released from???*
“That servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act accordingly to his will, shall receive a severe beating.” Luke 12:47
“Do not fear what you are about to suffer.” Revelation 2:10
“When we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world.” 1 Corinthians 11:32
“The Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” Hebrews 12:6
“The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the Lord tries hearts.” Proverbs 17:3
“Save some, by snatching them out of the fire.” Jude 23
“Give graciously to all the living, and withhold not kindness from the dead.” Sirach 7:33
“God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.” Ecclesiastes 12:14
“Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal which comes upon you to prove you, as though something strange were happening to you.” 1 Peter 4:12
“This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.” 2 Thessalonians 1:5
“Like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them.” Wisdom 3:6
“The sinners in Zion are afraid: trembling has seized the godless: ‘Who among us can dwell with the devouring fire?’” Isaiah 33:14
“Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” 2 Maccabees 12:45
“Bring me out of prison, that I may give thanks to thy name!” Psalm 142:7
“He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey.” 1 Peter 3:19
“This is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.” 1 Peter 4:6
“Great is thy steadfast love toward me; thou hast delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.” Psalm 86:13
****Strangely enough, Bible Christians, do not seem to take the Bible as literally as Catholics.
“The Lord your God is a devouring fire.” Deut.4:24
“God has not called us for uncleanness, but in holiness.” 1 Thess 4:7
“Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.” Psalm 51:2
“Everyone will be salted with fire.” Mark 9:49
“Nothing unclean shall enter it.” Rev 21:27
“If the righteous man is scarcely saved, where will the impious and the sinner appear?” 1 Peter 4:18
My favorite “He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present the right offerings to the Lord.” Malachi 3:5
“You may have to suffer various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” 1 Peter 1:6-7
“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48
“The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.” Psalm 51:17
“As for you also, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will set your captives free from the waterless pit.” Zecharaiah 9:11 Where are these souls being released from??? They have no need to be released from Heaven…Hell is for eternity. What pit are these souls being released from???*
“That servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act accordingly to his will, shall receive a severe beating.” Luke 12:47
“Do not fear what you are about to suffer.” Revelation 2:10
“When we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world.” 1 Corinthians 11:32
“The Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” Hebrews 12:6
“The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the Lord tries hearts.” Proverbs 17:3
“Save some, by snatching them out of the fire.” Jude 23
“Give graciously to all the living, and withhold not kindness from the dead.” Sirach 7:33
“God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.” Ecclesiastes 12:14
“Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal which comes upon you to prove you, as though something strange were happening to you.” 1 Peter 4:12
“This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.” 2 Thessalonians 1:5
“Like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them.” Wisdom 3:6
“The sinners in Zion are afraid: trembling has seized the godless: ‘Who among us can dwell with the devouring fire?’” Isaiah 33:14
“Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” 2 Maccabees 12:45
“Bring me out of prison, that I may give thanks to thy name!” Psalm 142:7
“He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey.” 1 Peter 3:19
“This is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.” 1 Peter 4:6
“Great is thy steadfast love toward me; thou hast delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.” Psalm 86:13
****Strangely enough, Bible Christians, do not seem to take the Bible as literally as Catholics.
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system
Guest
Jeff,
What people feel (Protestants or Catholics or even non-believers) has nothing at all to do with the truth. Feelings to do not impact the reality of purgatory, or the reality of indulgences, or the reality of prayers for the souls in purgatory.
What people feel (Protestants or Catholics or even non-believers) has nothing at all to do with the truth. Feelings to do not impact the reality of purgatory, or the reality of indulgences, or the reality of prayers for the souls in purgatory.
C
Catechist
Guest
Purgatory
I learned the teaching of purgatory in my teenage years when I was arrested.
I spent the night in jail. I was eating my breakfast of ice-cold French fires and hard yellow scrambled eggs when suddenly the jailer opened my cell and said, “Your mother is here”.
When I heard “your mother is here” I was instantly I was filled with dread and remorse. My stomach started to churn and I nearly puked all over my white paper suit.
As he led me down the corridor to visiting room, my heart was pounding in my chest and all I could think about was please don’t let mom see me now. As we came to the visiting room door, I was thinking please don’t open the door, please don’t let mom see me like this.
Even though that my own loving mother was on the other side of the door I didn’t want to go in. She gave me life. Nursed me. Raised me.
Now here I am jailed for a disgraceful act – I’m not human. I’m no better than a worm. I have no right to be alive let alone have a mother.
Standing in front of the door my mind was screaming “PLEASE DON"T OPEN THAT DOOR”. I was so ashamed.
But the cop did open it. I had to step in. Humiliated I couldn’t look at her. I couldn’t approach her. I had no words. She came to me and hugged me. All was forgiven.
Purgatory is not a place or time. Purgatory is that walk down the hallway to the door. It is the cleansing process of remorse burning in our souls.
Purgatory is the same process the Prodigal Son experienced as he walked down the road to his father’s house. The Prodigal Son didn’t skip down the road happy he was going home. He walked slowly. He was ashamed. In fact he didn’t even approach the house – he stopped on the road – his father had to go and get him.
Purgatory is the same process that Peter experienced after his denial.
But Peter said, “My friend, I do not know what you are talking about.” Just as he was saying this, the cock crowed, and the Lord turned and looked at Peter; and Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said to him, “Before the cock crows today, you will deny me three times.” He went out and began to weep bitterly.
Jesus chastised beaten and tied to a pillar, turned and looked at Peter. Peter ran and wept. What was that weeping all about?
Think about the next time Peter saw the Lord. What shame he must have felt.
We have all been there. A hurt and remorse so deep that we want to crawl under the blankets and never come out.
Imagine what it will be like when we see God in his glory. The remorse for all our sins will be a million times greater than all the remorse we ever felt on earth.
If I make it to heaven – I won’t arrive singing and dancing.
I won’t have the nerve to gaze upon the Holy Trinity - The Alpha and Omega - Lord of Lords in all his awesome power.
My entire soul will be on fire with the thought of all the times I failed.
If I make it to heaven I’m positive I will be cowering in some dark corner until my Shepard comes to bring me home and to the dance. I may even run from him. Christ and the saints will have to come get me - just like the Prodigal Son’s father had to come and get him off the road.
C
Churchmouse
Guest
Hello!
Well, I don’t want to give the impression that I accept 2 Maccabees as Scripture because I don’t. Neither do I want to get into a conversation on canon issues. All I’m saying is that the passage in 2 Maccabees doesn’t sound purgatorial in the least. Judas is mindful of the “resurrection” and prays that they be “loosed from their sins.” This doesn’t necessarily imply a purgatory as much as the day of resurrection. If we are going to claim prayers for the souls that are presently in purgatory and if purgatory is a state where the souls are released upon providing full satisfaction based on their level of impurity, than this verse really has no bearing on the subject, considering that he is mindful of the “resurrection” and not their present state. Secondly, even though it was a “holy and pious thought” the fact remains that these men died with idols which, according to Catholic thought, is a mortal sin, thus, Judas’ prayers would have no bearing on their state in the afterlife.
As to your other questions, I’m an ex-Catholic and, no, I don’t believe in a third state in present existence. I do believe there “was” a third state incorporated into Sheol prior to the crucifixion. Jesus refers to this in Luke 16, but it wasn’t purgatorial. It was a place of “comfort” where the OT saints resided prior to the Ascension (His first one, I believe He ascended twice).
Regarding you’re “flip” question, I believe I answered that in my original post. I have read the verses Catholics claim implicitly show a semblance of purgatory, but I don’t see any purgatory to be found. Why would I explicitly create something out of nothing?? Especially since it isn’t my burden to prove a purgatory exists.
I don’t know if you’re familiar with French medieval historian Jacques Le Goff’s book The Birth of Purgatory, but the author, a Roman Catholic, argues that this belief didn’t appear in Latin theology until the twelfth century. That even the word purgatorium didn’t exist until then. No, there is no evidence to prove that purgatory existed from the “beginning” as you claim. I don’t think you can provide any evidence of this as well.
Peace,
CM
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Churchmouse
Guest
thomasj317:
I believe you were referring to me and not Ric
No, I stand by my words, the Trinity is a logical extension of Scripture and can be found explicitly in verses such as Genesis 1:26, Matthew 3:16-17, Mark 9:7, Luke 3:22, etc. Nothing comes close in terms of purgatory and Catholics often inject preconceptions into these verses rather than allow them to to speak for themselves.
Peace,
CM
Hi Thomas,
I believe you were referring to me and not Ric
No, I stand by my words, the Trinity is a logical extension of Scripture and can be found explicitly in verses such as Genesis 1:26, Matthew 3:16-17, Mark 9:7, Luke 3:22, etc. Nothing comes close in terms of purgatory and Catholics often inject preconceptions into these verses rather than allow them to to speak for themselves.
Peace,
CM
S
system
Guest
Churchmouse,
You do not want to discuss the Canon of Scripture, yet when it comes to the topic of purgatory that is an essential element. If 2 Maccabees belongs to inspired Canon, as the Church has always taught and the early Church accepted, then its writings are equal to every other writing in the Bible. Therefore, one cannot just throw-out the importance of praying to the dead just because they do not want to acknowledge the proper Canon.
As I stated in an earlier post: Praying for the souls in hell does no good at all; likewise praying for the souls in Heaven is without meaning because they are already in Heaven. Since the Bible contains nothing that is meaningless, the prayers for the dead found in 2 Maccabees has to carry meaning…and since we know those prayers are useless for souls in hell and Heaven, then there MUST be a third place or state (purification, purgatory).
You do not want to discuss the Canon of Scripture, yet when it comes to the topic of purgatory that is an essential element. If 2 Maccabees belongs to inspired Canon, as the Church has always taught and the early Church accepted, then its writings are equal to every other writing in the Bible. Therefore, one cannot just throw-out the importance of praying to the dead just because they do not want to acknowledge the proper Canon.
As I stated in an earlier post: Praying for the souls in hell does no good at all; likewise praying for the souls in Heaven is without meaning because they are already in Heaven. Since the Bible contains nothing that is meaningless, the prayers for the dead found in 2 Maccabees has to carry meaning…and since we know those prayers are useless for souls in hell and Heaven, then there MUST be a third place or state (purification, purgatory).
C
Churchmouse
Guest
thomasj317:
I think you are misunderstanding the point. What I am saying is that even if I did accept 2 Maccabees as Scripture, I still don’t see anything purgatorial in the context of the said chapter and verse. Also, if we are to believe that Judas’ prayers are evidence of praying the dead out of punishment, then we might as well take it to its logical conclusion: That Judas’ believed in the possibility that men with mortal sins could be released from the hell of the damned (to use the Catholic vernacular). After all, these men died with idols.
Peace,
CM
Thomas,
I think you are misunderstanding the point. What I am saying is that even if I did accept 2 Maccabees as Scripture, I still don’t see anything purgatorial in the context of the said chapter and verse. Also, if we are to believe that Judas’ prayers are evidence of praying the dead out of punishment, then we might as well take it to its logical conclusion: That Judas’ believed in the possibility that men with mortal sins could be released from the hell of the damned (to use the Catholic vernacular). After all, these men died with idols.
Praying for the dead doesn’t mean that they were praying for their release from a purgatory. The early church would pray for the refreshment of their deceased (refrigerium). They prayed for more “heavenly happiness.” Although nothing could be happier than being in heaven, this didn’t stop the early church from praying that this “happiness” would be intensified upon the deceased. Personally, I believe it did more for those who prayed than for those they prayed for. It probably brought them solace. So, no, praying for the dead doesn’t automatically imply a purgatory.
Peace,
CM
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germys9
Guest
Churchmouse, accepting 2 Macc. as a book in the bible, as the very first christians did is a another topic. But I think you may have misinterpreted the passage. They were not found worshiping idols, which is a mortal sin. They worhsipped God as did all of the Jews. They were round with good luck charms around their necks. It could be compared today to something like zodiac signs. It is sinful because it is putting your trust in something other than God, but not quite the same as worshipping an idol. When these jews prayed for the dead caught in this sin, it would make sense that there be a third state. As I have shown, this was not a sin that condemned them to hell. So that’s ruled out. And I hardly believe they were praying for more “heavenly happiness” as they accepted that God had just killed them for their sin. Also, there are many writings from the early church that show they believed in purgatory. Your right, though, the actual word purgatory wasn’t used until much later, the concept behind the word goes all the way back. In scripture I still havn’t gotten a good explanation for Heb 12:23 (spirits of the just made perfect) if that doesn’t imply some type of purging. Again, it is obvious from early Christian writings that they believed in purgatory, so the idea did exist. Can you show me any early writing that refutes the idea?
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system
Guest
Churchmouse,
I agree, prayers for the dead does not automatically prove or disprove the existence of purgatory. I think you missed my point. There are many Scripture verses that speak to the need for purification, the 2 Maccabees does not speak to that. I am merely pointing out that in 2 Maccabees prayer for the dead is used as a very good action, not a sinful action. Since we know that prayer for the souls in hell and Heaven would be fairly meaningless, then it is an easy extrapolation to ask “where are the souls that those prayers are intended for?”
The 2 Maccabees implies that there must be a third place or state.
I agree, prayers for the dead does not automatically prove or disprove the existence of purgatory. I think you missed my point. There are many Scripture verses that speak to the need for purification, the 2 Maccabees does not speak to that. I am merely pointing out that in 2 Maccabees prayer for the dead is used as a very good action, not a sinful action. Since we know that prayer for the souls in hell and Heaven would be fairly meaningless, then it is an easy extrapolation to ask “where are the souls that those prayers are intended for?”
The 2 Maccabees implies that there must be a third place or state.
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system
Guest
Churchmouse,
I disagree with your views regarding the Trinity. There are no references in Scripture that explicitly state the truth of the Trinity. There are many passages that imply or give hint to the Trinity–but none of them are explicit. There was incredible battles over the definition of the Trinity in the early Church, which points to the fact that it was not exactly explicit.
Purgatory, while not exactly the same, is quite similar in that purification is spoken of many times in Scripture, along with praying for the dead, and joined with the Scriptural point that nothing unclean can enter Heaven.
Here is sound way to look at this: Suppose “George” was a good faithful Catholic Christian and tried to walk in the ways of the Lord all his life. Suppose he had remained in his faith all the way to his death bed; suppose George had regularly repented of his sins and sought forgiveness whenever he fell; finally, suppose that George had a life-long battle with lying. When George died he was in the favor of God because he had lived a good solid life in Christ, his sins had been forgiven so he would be saved and go to Heaven. The problem is, George’s sins were forgiven, but George’s inclination to lie still remained…it was one of his weaknesses that he could never master. Souls predisposed to lie (or any sin) will not enter Heaven until they are completely cleaned/purified of that inclination because nothing unclean can enter Heaven. That, in my opinion, is a major reason we should seek holiness while in this life.
Jesus’ work on the cross is complete in George’s case because his sins were forgiven and he was saved–yet George’s personal inclination to sin is not wash away by Jesus’ forgiveness.
I disagree with your views regarding the Trinity. There are no references in Scripture that explicitly state the truth of the Trinity. There are many passages that imply or give hint to the Trinity–but none of them are explicit. There was incredible battles over the definition of the Trinity in the early Church, which points to the fact that it was not exactly explicit.
Purgatory, while not exactly the same, is quite similar in that purification is spoken of many times in Scripture, along with praying for the dead, and joined with the Scriptural point that nothing unclean can enter Heaven.
Here is sound way to look at this: Suppose “George” was a good faithful Catholic Christian and tried to walk in the ways of the Lord all his life. Suppose he had remained in his faith all the way to his death bed; suppose George had regularly repented of his sins and sought forgiveness whenever he fell; finally, suppose that George had a life-long battle with lying. When George died he was in the favor of God because he had lived a good solid life in Christ, his sins had been forgiven so he would be saved and go to Heaven. The problem is, George’s sins were forgiven, but George’s inclination to lie still remained…it was one of his weaknesses that he could never master. Souls predisposed to lie (or any sin) will not enter Heaven until they are completely cleaned/purified of that inclination because nothing unclean can enter Heaven. That, in my opinion, is a major reason we should seek holiness while in this life.
Jesus’ work on the cross is complete in George’s case because his sins were forgiven and he was saved–yet George’s personal inclination to sin is not wash away by Jesus’ forgiveness.
C
Churchmouse
Guest
thomasj317:
Peace,
CM
I understand, but there is a difference between purification and afterlife purification. I agree, there are verses that speak of the need for purification, but to apply this purification in the afterlife is definitely not found in the Bible. Catholics have to rely on implicity to make an argument for it.
But I would contend that this “holy and pious thought” can easily be interpreted as the belief that the dead can be prayed out of the hell of the damned. After all, the context would demand it. Judas’ prayed that idolatrous men–those who committed a mortal sin– would be “loosed from their sins” on the day of resurrection. This doesn’t imply a third state considering that Judas is trying to pray them out of hell.
In context, no it doesn’t.
Peace,
CM
S
Stylteralmaldo
Guest
thomasj317:
Thank you thomasj317. This was the point I was trying to make in my last post.
S
system
Guest
Churchmouse,
Nothing unclean can enter Heaven is quite a powerful concept. It does not say “no-one with sin,” it says “nothing unclean” and that most definitely applies to afterlife.
In 2 Maccabees it was Jews who were praying for the dead and they absolutely knew that praying for the spiritually dead was directly forbidden by God–they would not and could not have messed that up and I am utterly convinced that the Holy Spirit would not allow such an error to make it into the Canon of Scripture.
Nothing unclean can enter Heaven is quite a powerful concept. It does not say “no-one with sin,” it says “nothing unclean” and that most definitely applies to afterlife.
In 2 Maccabees it was Jews who were praying for the dead and they absolutely knew that praying for the spiritually dead was directly forbidden by God–they would not and could not have messed that up and I am utterly convinced that the Holy Spirit would not allow such an error to make it into the Canon of Scripture.
C
Churchmouse
Guest
thomasj317:
Again, this is using your argumentation and it just doesn’t jibe.
Not only are you disproving that Judas was doing something righteous, but you are also giving substance as to why this book doesn’t belong.
Peace,
CM
Well, like I stated in my first post on this thread, I have pretty much heard every verse used to support purgatory. This one isn’t any different considering it says absolutely nothing about purgatory. Neither does it imply afterlife purification considering that holiness can be attained in this life. I really don’t know how you can see the words “nothing unclean” and rationalize that it “definitely applies to the afterlife.” Again, you would have to inflict your interpretation into the verse to make it sound purgatorial.
Well, that would be a contradiction. Again, in light of Catholic teaching, these men died with idols in their possession. They died with mortal sin, thus, they would be considered “spiritually dead” as you have stated. Judas’ prayed for these “spiritually dead” men, thus, Judas committed an action which was forbidden by God, but this “canonical” book calls it a “holy and pious thought”
Again, this is using your argumentation and it just doesn’t jibe.Not only are you disproving that Judas was doing something righteous, but you are also giving substance as to why this book doesn’t belong.
Peace,
CM
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