S
system
Guest
Churchmouse,
"…that holiness can be attained in this life. I really don’t know how you can see the words “nothing unclean” and rationalize that it “definitely applies to the afterlife.”
–I am not rationlizing anything. First, the very statement “nothing unclean shall enter Heaven” is a direct statement of the afterlife…Heaven is not on earth and not in this life.
–We can reach a “certain” level of holiness in this life and that is what the Saints did. Yet, for most of us attaining the level of Sainthood is not going to happen. Most of us will die in some state of sin and uncleaness…that is just an obvious fact. The “uncleaness” is not washed away when we are forgiven and that is easily demonstrated in this life. Say a person goes to confession and confesses all their sins, the Priest gives the absolution and all the person’s sins are then totally erased, blotted from the record. Does that mean when the person walks out of the confessional that they can no longer sin? No, of course not–because every human (bar Mary) has sinned. That is the very thing/trait (inclination) that must be purified before we enter Heaven. No soul who still has an inclination to sin will be allowed into Heaven, even though their actual personal sins have been forgiven by Jesus.
“Again, you would have to inflict your interpretation into the verse to make it sound purgatorial.”
–Nope, not true. I am merely trying to get you to see that the 2 Maccabees passage reflects prayers for the dead and it is a reflection of a good act, not a sinful act. Again, I have admitted before that the passage does not speak of purification, nor of purgatory, it merely speaks of the good act of praying for the dead. Now, connecting the dots we can recall that praying for or to the spiritual dead was strictly forbidden by God; therefore the Jews in 2 Maccabees could NOT have been praying for or to the spiritually dead for that would have been a mortal sin; they also would not have been praying for souls in Heaven for a person can not get higher then Heaven; therefore, those Jews had to believe there was a third place for souls to go after death.
“Again, in light of Catholic teaching, these men died with idols in their possession. They died with mortal sin, thus, they would be considered “spiritually dead” as you have stated.”
–I disagree. Look at the last part of the passge: “For if he (Judas)were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”
–Clearly Judas knew that prayers for the spiritually dead was useless, he had expectation that those souls could be prayed for, that they were not in what Catholics would call mortal sin. In fact, the passage even states “…for those who fall asleep in godliness,” which clearly is the state that Judas believed those men to have died in. The Bible is not wrong.
“Not only are you disproving that Judas was doing something righteous, but you are also giving substance as to why this book doesn’t belong.”
–Nope. Judas knew what he was doing and he certainly knew the prohibition against praying for the spiritually dead; yet we see that he did pray for those fallen men, which means he certainly believed that they were in place where his prayers could be of use. It would be ludicrous to thinink that Judas would recognize the men’s sins when they used the tokens, just to turn around and commit mortal sin himself-----that does NOT jibe.
–The Canon of Scripture (OT and NT) was approved by the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit inspired the writings in the Canon. Now, what possible good would it do if the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of the books, only to go on vacation when it came time to creating the official Canon? That does not jibe. Besides, when one looks deeply into the use of the Scriptures during Jesus’ day, it becomes clear that Jesus quoted from the Greek Septuagint, and that version contained all of the seven books that Protestants yank from the Canon. Those seven books were approved by the early councils and synods as being fully Canonical. Did the Holy Spirit make an error?
(continued)
"…that holiness can be attained in this life. I really don’t know how you can see the words “nothing unclean” and rationalize that it “definitely applies to the afterlife.”
–I am not rationlizing anything. First, the very statement “nothing unclean shall enter Heaven” is a direct statement of the afterlife…Heaven is not on earth and not in this life.
–We can reach a “certain” level of holiness in this life and that is what the Saints did. Yet, for most of us attaining the level of Sainthood is not going to happen. Most of us will die in some state of sin and uncleaness…that is just an obvious fact. The “uncleaness” is not washed away when we are forgiven and that is easily demonstrated in this life. Say a person goes to confession and confesses all their sins, the Priest gives the absolution and all the person’s sins are then totally erased, blotted from the record. Does that mean when the person walks out of the confessional that they can no longer sin? No, of course not–because every human (bar Mary) has sinned. That is the very thing/trait (inclination) that must be purified before we enter Heaven. No soul who still has an inclination to sin will be allowed into Heaven, even though their actual personal sins have been forgiven by Jesus.
“Again, you would have to inflict your interpretation into the verse to make it sound purgatorial.”
–Nope, not true. I am merely trying to get you to see that the 2 Maccabees passage reflects prayers for the dead and it is a reflection of a good act, not a sinful act. Again, I have admitted before that the passage does not speak of purification, nor of purgatory, it merely speaks of the good act of praying for the dead. Now, connecting the dots we can recall that praying for or to the spiritual dead was strictly forbidden by God; therefore the Jews in 2 Maccabees could NOT have been praying for or to the spiritually dead for that would have been a mortal sin; they also would not have been praying for souls in Heaven for a person can not get higher then Heaven; therefore, those Jews had to believe there was a third place for souls to go after death.
“Again, in light of Catholic teaching, these men died with idols in their possession. They died with mortal sin, thus, they would be considered “spiritually dead” as you have stated.”
–I disagree. Look at the last part of the passge: “For if he (Judas)were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”
–Clearly Judas knew that prayers for the spiritually dead was useless, he had expectation that those souls could be prayed for, that they were not in what Catholics would call mortal sin. In fact, the passage even states “…for those who fall asleep in godliness,” which clearly is the state that Judas believed those men to have died in. The Bible is not wrong.
“Not only are you disproving that Judas was doing something righteous, but you are also giving substance as to why this book doesn’t belong.”
–Nope. Judas knew what he was doing and he certainly knew the prohibition against praying for the spiritually dead; yet we see that he did pray for those fallen men, which means he certainly believed that they were in place where his prayers could be of use. It would be ludicrous to thinink that Judas would recognize the men’s sins when they used the tokens, just to turn around and commit mortal sin himself-----that does NOT jibe.
–The Canon of Scripture (OT and NT) was approved by the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit inspired the writings in the Canon. Now, what possible good would it do if the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of the books, only to go on vacation when it came time to creating the official Canon? That does not jibe. Besides, when one looks deeply into the use of the Scriptures during Jesus’ day, it becomes clear that Jesus quoted from the Greek Septuagint, and that version contained all of the seven books that Protestants yank from the Canon. Those seven books were approved by the early councils and synods as being fully Canonical. Did the Holy Spirit make an error?
(continued)
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and it doesn’t allow you to get passed the dilemma. The passage doesn’t speak about purgatory and Judas prays looking ahead to the resurrection. Judas prays for men who had idols, thus he prayed for the “spiritually dead.” Judas was wrong to do this. Yet, you would have me believe that Judas wasn’t wrong, his men didn’t commit mortal sin, and that this book makes perfect Catholic sense. All this without any evidence to prove your point.
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